[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Maybe in a straight line and top speed, but the added heft will give some back in turns and breaking. To clarify, I an not talking stock vs stock. I am comparing prepping both cars with adequate mods. See my comment below.



To clarify, when I compare these cars and lap times, I am comparing to a modified e46 M3. Granted that's not apples to apples, but the e46 M3 left a lot more room for improvement, as it was fairly soft in stock form. GT3 is track ready out of the gate and the M2C is about half way there.

Throw coil overs, camber plates, BBK and R-comps on any half way decent car, and your not that far off. With that said, I am ~5 seconds slower than a GT3 @ Thunderhill (3 mile track). The Nurburgring is over 5 times longer, which translates to 1/2 minute slower. So I don't think it is that I am seriously good driver, just that you were comparing a stock e46 M3, and I wasn't.

For that same reason, I don't feel an M2C will be a big step up. I am currently at ~370 hp and under 3200 lbs. M2C will be 405 hp at ~3600 lbs. On paper that is not looking much better if at all, which is why I have doubts it is worth it.

The biggest reason I was considering the M2C, is that it would take less to modify to make it as quick or quicker and thus making it more user friendly for more street driving. Not that I need that, as I have a DD, but it is nice to drive your fun car in between track days a bit more.

You are comparing your modified E46 to a stock M2C, which is not really fair IMO. If you spend less than $1K, you can get over 450whp on M2C (you can even push close to 500whp but I'd rather stay in the safe zone). Does your E46 make 370hp or whp? I assume it's crank HP so there could be easily over 100whp difference between your E46 and a tuned M2C. If you don't want to spend more, you can stop there of course but there is also so much potential to reduce weight on the M2C as well. AP Racing BBK saves 20lbs compared to stock blue brakes (4 piston front, 2 piston rear) and the new BBK on M2C is 35lbs heavier than old blue brakes. In other words, if you sell stock BBK on M2C and upgrade to APR, you can save 55lbs. Get an aftermarket exhaust, which is another 20lbs savings. Lightweight battery, another 30lbs. Recaro seats that you have in your E46, close to 50lbs savings probably. Yes, the cost will add up quickly but you already shaved off 150lbs weight and now have a car that makes over 500 crank HP or ~450whp.

[Al1969]

E46 M3 is a collector ... plenty of old M3 owners write in forums about their regrets when they sold their cars, and yours seems in good shape ... I would rather jump on 2nd hand M2 for my daily, and keep the M3 in garage ...

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by cntzl

You are comparing your modified E46 to a stock M2C, which is not really fair IMO. If you spend less than $1K, you can get over 450whp on M2C (you can even push close to 500whp but I'd rather stay in the safe zone). Does your E46 make 370hp or whp? I assume it's crank HP so there could be easily over 100whp difference between your E46 and a tuned M2C. If you don't want to spend more, you can stop there of course but there is also so much potential to reduce weight on the M2C as well. AP Racing BBK saves 20lbs compared to stock blue brakes (4 piston front, 2 piston rear) and the new BBK on M2C is 35lbs heavier than old blue brakes. In other words, if you sell stock BBK on M2C and upgrade to APR, you can save 55lbs. Get an aftermarket exhaust, which is another 20lbs savings. Lightweight battery, another 30lbs. Recaro seats that you have in your E46, close to 50lbs savings probably. Yes, the cost will add up quickly but you already shaved off 150lbs weight and now have a car that makes over 500 crank HP or ~450whp.

You are absolutely right, and I did point that out, that it wasn't necessarily apples to apples comparison. The 370hp was to the crank and yes, the M2C will have a nice jump in hp and even more in torque. Plus turbo engines are easily tuned.......all good tings.
So is the 405hp on the M2C not to the crank? I mean the e46 M3 was listed at 333hp, which is why I figured mine has about 370, with what I did, so not far off from the 405 of the M2C. But you are talking 500 hp now to the crank. I wasn't aware that there is that much potential in them, safely.

The weight reduction stuff would be a fun project over time, but as you wrote, costly! Doing the numbers in my head I'm guessing the tune, brakes, seats and exhaust you mentioned would easily set me another $10k back, even if I sell the stock BBK. So now I am looking at a $75k car, still weighing 3450 lbs. But at this point it might actually be faster on track than what I have. At the same time, it would also narrow the gap to the GT3 by another $10k, but still a lot of bang for the buck really. $75k is not bad for that much performance.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by norMcal

You are absolutely right, and I did point that out, that it wasn't necessarily apples to apples comparison. The 370hp was to the crank and yes, the M2C will have a nice jump in hp and even more in torque. Plus turbo engines are easily tuned.......all good tings.
So is the 405hp on the M2C not to the crank? I mean the e46 M3 was listed at 333hp, which is why I figured mine has about 370, with what I did, so not far off from the 405 of the M2C. But you are talking 500 hp now to the crank. I wasn't aware that there is that much potential in them, safely.

The weight reduction stuff would be a fun project over time, but as you wrote, costly! Doing the numbers in my head I'm guessing the tune, brakes, seats and exhaust you mentioned would easily set me another $10k back, even if I sell the stock BBK. So now I am looking at a $75k car, still weighing 3450 lbs. But at this point it might actually be faster on track than what I have. At the same time, it would also narrow the gap to the GT3 by another $10k, but still a lot of bang for the buck really. $75k is not bad for that much performance.

Don't get me wrong, my post was not intended to convince you to sell your gorgeous E46 I was just pointing out the potential in an M2C. Yes, a stock M4 Comp puts down ~430-440whp on shitty California 91oct. A stock M3/M4 CS adds ~10-15whp on top of that. So if you were to get a M3/M4 CS flash tune, you are at about ~450whp range, which puts it around 500-510 crank HP assuming a 12% loss. However, don't focus on what number it makes. My point was that on the same day, same dyno there will be a huge HP/torque difference (could be more than 100whp as I said) between your e46 and a tuned M2C. Also, does your E46 weigh 3200lbs with or without the fuel? I believe 3600lbs figure for M2C includes 90% full tank. Anyways... as we both agree, the final cost with all that weight reduction might be over $75K or even over $80K. If I were you, I wouldn't sell your E46 neither for an M2C nor for a GT3 regardless how great of a car the GT3 is. I saw the pics of your E46 and it looks so clean and perfectly modded. My suggestion is just keep the E46 no matter what

[chris719]

Originally Posted by norMcal

You are absolutely right, and I did point that out, that it wasn't necessarily apples to apples comparison. The 370hp was to the crank and yes, the M2C will have a nice jump in hp and even more in torque. Plus turbo engines are easily tuned.......all good tings.
So is the 405hp on the M2C not to the crank? I mean the e46 M3 was listed at 333hp, which is why I figured mine has about 370, with what I did, so not far off from the 405 of the M2C. But you are talking 500 hp now to the crank. I wasn't aware that there is that much potential in them, safely.

The weight reduction stuff would be a fun project over time, but as you wrote, costly! Doing the numbers in my head I'm guessing the tune, brakes, seats and exhaust you mentioned would easily set me another $10k back, even if I sell the stock BBK. So now I am looking at a $75k car, still weighing 3450 lbs. But at this point it might actually be faster on track than what I have. At the same time, it would also narrow the gap to the GT3 by another $10k, but still a lot of bang for the buck really. $75k is not bad for that much performance.

The reality is that S54 barely makes any additional power with mods. The NA M engines are pretty much maxed out. The turbo engines are also more heavily de-rated in terms of power output. Having driven both, the N55 M2 is noticeably faster despite being 350 lbs heavier than my Z4M was. Even if the absolute peak HP numbers may not be that different, the area under the power curve is significantly larger for N55, nevermind the S55.


Stock M2 N55, note power at 4k for example:

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/attach...1&d=1461367934

Modified E46 M3, headers, cat, and tune:

http://alexroyphotography.com/dyno_d...uro200_SAE.jpg


S55 is a very strong engine and so there is no way the difference between an S54 and even a detuned S55 is only 40 HP. Car and Driver measured a larger difference on the same dyno comparing an S65 V8 M3 to a new F8x one.

The same S55 engine in the M4 CS makes a conservative 453 crank horsepower, so 500 with a tune is not very far off.

For the record, I'm not putting the S54 down. It's a better engine than N55 for a sports car in my opinion, but the power and specifically area under the curve cannot compete anymore.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by cntzl

Don't get me wrong, my post was not intended to convince you to sell your gorgeous E46 I was just pointing out the potential in an M2C. Yes, a stock M4 Comp puts down ~430-440whp on shitty California 91oct. A stock M3/M4 CS adds ~10-15whp on top of that. So if you were to get a M3/M4 CS flash tune, you are at about ~450whp range, which puts it around 500-510 crank HP assuming a 12% loss. However, don't focus on what number it makes. My point was that on the same day, same dyno there will be a huge HP/torque difference (could be more than 100whp as I said) between your e46 and a tuned M2C. Also, does your E46 weigh 3200lbs with or without the fuel? I believe 3600lbs figure for M2C includes 90% full tank. Anyways... as we both agree, the final cost with all that weight reduction might be over $75K or even over $80K. If I were you, I wouldn't sell your E46 neither for an M2C nor for a GT3 regardless how great of a car the GT3 is. I saw the pics of your E46 and it looks so clean and perfectly modded. My suggestion is just keep the E46 no matter what

It's all good, I did not take your advice that way. I appreciate the input and you are making me realize that the numbers are not all that bad on the M2.

I had my M3 on a scale with 1/3 of a tank @3170 lbs when I had it at a track event (FWIW, I do remove a few more things for track days that only take a few minutes, sub-woofer, rear fold down seats). Bottom line, it's pretty close to 3200 lbs with full tank.

I know from first hand experience that these modern turbo engines make a lot more usable power than the hp numbers suggest. I've been DD a GTI for 5 years, and even though it is rated at only 200 hp (238 with the tune I have) it feels nearly as fast as my M3, despite looking much slower on paper. That turbo torque is just so much more usable on acceleration than a N/A engine, there is no doubt!
On the flip side though. On track, ~80% of the time I am in the peak hp range, even with this N/A engine, and I am always amazed, when I compare to other cars on track that I know have way more power, that they there isn't all that much of a difference. Lightness seems to matter more, which is why I was having doubts about the M2C. Yes, as you suggested before, there are probably ways to get it in the 3400 range, but that is still not light, however with the amount of extra power you are suggesting it makes, it should be reasonably quicker.

Originally Posted by chris719

The reality is that S54 barely makes any additional power with mods. The NA M engines are pretty much maxed out. The turbo engines are also more heavily de-rated in terms of power output. Having driven both, the N55 M2 is noticeably faster despite being 350 lbs heavier than my Z4M was. Even if the absolute peak HP numbers may not be that different, the area under the power curve is significantly larger for N55, nevermind the S55.


Stock M2 N55, note power at 4k for example:

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/attach...1&d=1461367934

Modified E46 M3, headers, cat, and tune:

http://alexroyphotography.com/dyno_d...uro200_SAE.jpg


S55 is a very strong engine and so there is no way the difference between an S54 and even a detuned S55 is only 40 HP. Car and Driver measured a larger difference on the same dyno comparing an S65 V8 M3 to a new F8x one.

The same S55 engine in the M4 CS makes a conservative 453 crank horsepower, so 500 with a tune is not very far off.

For the record, I'm not putting the S54 down. It's a better engine than N55 for a sports car in my opinion, but the power and specifically area under the curve cannot compete anymore.

See what I just wrote above regarding the GTI. I see your point and was aware of the difference between the engines for the most part. I can't deny that these new turbo engines have way more potential. That is the downside of the old M engines, not much room left to improve them without FI.
If I was using this car 80/20 for street/track, then the decision would be easy, M2 would be the clear choice, but being that this car is really more 80/20 track/street, its not so clear.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by cntzl

If I were you, I wouldn't sell your E46 neither for an M2C nor for a GT3 regardless how great of a car the GT3 is. I saw the pics of your E46 and it looks so clean and perfectly modded. My suggestion is just keep the E46 no matter what

Agree, keep the E46 and add to the garage later. I had a clean carbon black E46 M3. I still regret selling it to this day. I should have just kept it as they have held their value quite good.

Originally Posted by norMcal

I had my M3 on a scale with 1/3 of a tank @3170 lbs when I had it at a track event (FWIW, I do remove a few more things for track days that only take a few minutes, sub-woofer, rear fold down seats). Bottom line, it's pretty close to 3200 lbs with full tank.

E46 M3 tank is 16.6 gallons, 90% full would add another ~55lbs of fuel. Rear fold downs are about ~35lbs, rear bottom cushion another ~10lbs. That is another 100lbs right there. Plus whatever else you remove. You need to factor these things in, if you truly want to make an apples to apples comparison for the track.

[Threeebowel]

Hey peeps, this is the car forum format at it's best, very informative. It's amazing to read level headed commentary instead of gut reaction and hyperbole.

Very enjoyable.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by norMcal

It's all good, I did not take your advice that way. I appreciate the input and you are making me realize that the numbers are not all that bad on the M2.

I had my M3 on a scale with 1/3 of a tank @3170 lbs when I had it at a track event (FWIW, I do remove a few more things for track days that only take a few minutes, sub-woofer, rear fold down seats). Bottom line, it's pretty close to 3200 lbs with full tank.

I know from first hand experience that these modern turbo engines make a lot more usable power than the hp numbers suggest. I've been DD a GTI for 5 years, and even though it is rated at only 200 hp (238 with the tune I have) it feels nearly as fast as my M3, despite looking much slower on paper. That turbo torque is just so much more usable on acceleration than a N/A engine, there is no doubt!
On the flip side though. On track, ~80% of the time I am in the peak hp range, even with this N/A engine, and I am always amazed, when I compare to other cars on track that I know have way more power, that they there isn't all that much of a difference. Lightness seems to matter more, which is why I was having doubts about the M2C. Yes, as you suggested before, there are probably ways to get it in the 3400 range, but that is still not light, however with the amount of extra power you are suggesting it makes, it should be reasonably quicker.


See what I just wrote above regarding the GTI. I see your point and was aware of the difference between the engines for the most part. I can't deny that these new turbo engines have way more potential. That is the downside of the old M engines, not much room left to improve them without FI.
If I was using this car 80/20 for street/track, then the decision would be easy, M2 would be the clear choice, but being that this car is really more 80/20 track/street, its not so clear.

Have you considered a Cayman S/GTS? Either 981 or the new 718.

For 80% track it might be just the thing if you want lightness.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Agree, keep the E46 and add to the garage later. I had a clean carbon black E46 M3. I still regret selling it to this day. I should have just kept it as they have held their value quite good.


E46 M3 tank is 16.6 gallons, 90% full would add another ~55lbs of fuel. Rear fold downs are about ~35lbs, rear bottom cushion another ~10lbs. That is another 100lbs right there. Plus whatever else you remove. You need to factor these things in, if you truly want to make an apples to apples comparison for the track.

The value retention is one of the big reasons I got another e46 M3.

Yes, I could potentially find similar weight savings on the M2, and your point is valid. Reason I hesitate to compare it in such a way, is because I don't know if they will be as easy to do on the M2. The weight reduction has been a process and evolved over time. I just recently started to remove the rear fold down seats for track events, because I realized it is literally one screw that holds them in place. Or the sub woofer for example. takes 2 minutes to remove. I have no idea how difficult these type of things would be in the M2, so I can't really count on them.
I honestly lost track where I am exactly with the weight, but I am thinking that even with a full tank I am not over 3200 lbs, or if, not by much at all.

In conclusion to all off this, I am leaning towards keeping the e46 M3, but if I were to get an M2, then a Competition almost makes no sense,because it was suggested that the best way to get the weight down is to get lighter seats and a lighter BBK, which are 2 out 3 reasons why I wanted the M2C in the first place. So that only leaves the better engine, which I doubt is worth an extra $10k. It looks to me like getting a lightly used M2 for around $50k, and modify it to my liking would be a better way to go.

Originally Posted by chris719

Have you considered a Cayman S/GTS? Either 981 or the new 718.

For 80% track it might be just the thing if you want lightness.

Yes, actually driven my buddies 981 Cayman S several times on and off the track. Great car, checks most of the boxes. My only complaints are, it's not a 911, has no rear seats and is under powered (or the gears are too tall). I smoke it on the straights and the lighter weight & balance of it, are not enough to make up the difference in the corners. In other words, it is pretty much on par with my car performance wise. But I do like them and would not rule it out as a possibility some day.

[boostspoon]

tl;dr - have you decided yet?

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by norMcal

The value retention is one of the big reasons I got another e46 M3.

Yes, I could potentially find similar weight savings on the M2, and your point is valid. Reason I hesitate to compare it in such a way, is because I don't know if they will be as easy to do on the M2. The weight reduction has been a process and evolved over time. I just recently started to remove the rear fold down seats for track events, because I realized it is literally one screw that holds them in place. Or the sub woofer for example. takes 2 minutes to remove. I have no idea how difficult these type of things would be in the M2, so I can't really count on them.
I honestly lost track where I am exactly with the weight, but I am thinking that even with a full tank I am not over 3200 lbs, or if, not by much at all.

In conclusion to all off this, I am leaning towards keeping the e46 M3, but if I were to get an M2, then a Competition almost makes no sense,because it was suggested that the best way to get the weight down is to get lighter seats and a lighter BBK, which are 2 out 3 reasons why I wanted the M2C in the first place. So that only leaves the better engine, which I doubt is worth an extra $10k. It looks to me like getting a lightly used M2 for around $50k, and modify it to my liking would be a better way to go.



Yes, actually driven my buddies 981 Cayman S several times on and off the track. Great car, checks most of the boxes. My only complaints are, it's not a 911, has no rear seats and is under powered (or the gears are too tall). I smoke it on the straights and the lighter weight & balance of it, are not enough to make up the difference in the corners. In other words, it is pretty much on par with my car performance wise. But I do like them and would not rule it out as a possibility some day.

Not sure what kind of driver you are. But my buddy(advanced/solo driver) had a M2 for year and half. He spent a bunch of money on CSF cooling pieces to deal with summer heat during his track weekends. The S55 air to water cooling is worth its wait in gold. All the track days I’ve been to never seen a S55 have heat issues. Do yourself a favor and find a track prepped M4 to drive. A tuned S55 is a beast, no comparison the S55 headroom compared to the N55. People can argue exhaust note for days, but the S55 is simply a better more robust powerplant. Honestly you should keep your E46, since it is already setup to your liking. Your car vs a used M2N55, take your car all day. New M2C is a different story, since I have had a lot of M4 seat time at the track. I expect the new car is going to rip, S55 in a shorter wheelbase sounds so fun.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

Not sure what kind of driver you are. But my buddy(advanced/solo driver) had a M2 for year and half. He spent a bunch of money on CSF cooling pieces to deal with summer heat during his track weekends. The S55 air to water cooling is worth its wait in gold. All the track days I’ve been to never seen a S55 have heat issues. Do yourself a favor and find a track prepped M4 to drive. A tuned S55 is a beast, no comparison the S55 headroom compared to the N55. People can argue exhaust note for days, but the S55 is simply a better more robust powerplant. Honestly you should keep your E46, since it is already setup to your liking. Your car vs a used M2N55, take your car all day. New M2C is a different story, since I have had a lot of M4 seat time at the track. I expect the new car is going to rip, S55 in a shorter wheelbase sounds so fun.

I run in advanced. Not as fast as the pro's but within respectable striking distance.

Excellent input on the S55. Maybe I haven't given it enough credit. Thanks!

[Apone]

I say GT3, you appear to be a track guy and what you have in hand is a known quantity in that regard. The GT3 is also a known quantity. You also seem to have an emotional connection with both of them. The M2C looks great to me, and appears light "enough" for my needs. You sound like you would be happier with the Porsche. I see that as a major save and buy item, you won't do that often so get what you want if you can.

[Nachtsturm]

I am on the regret wagon with others, still regret selling my 01 Steel Gray 6-speed M3 and I sold it 15 years ago, best car I ever owned.



Keep the E46, and save up for the GT3.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by M2COMPHAMILTON

I was first in line at my dealer, got the allocation and backed out of the deal. I too was afraid of the overall weight of the car and not really sure how pure the car would really end up being. I was looking for a true drivers car for the road. I ended up ordering a Porsche 911 Carrera T. I believe this car is only 3100lbs.

Well, I came to the same conclusion. Just told my dealer to refund me my deposit. Backing out of the M2 C! I will set my sights on a 991. The T would be close to perfect. Just need to decide if it is worth $100k+ new, when there are used GT3's for another $20k. A used T, although hard to find I'm sure, would be a great compromise, if I could find one for ~$85k.

Passing on the M2C boiled down to these 3 factors for me:

1. Giving up too much (nice e46 M3 + ~$40k), for something that might not be better in every way I hope for
2. Being committed to a car for possibly longer than I want to
3. Big uptick in business this year allows me to potentially set my sights higher

The fact that the M2C is heavier, doesn't come in any colors that I really love, and those hideous wheels only contributed to my decision.

[gtr]

Originally Posted by norMcal

I will set my sights on a 991. The T would be close to perfect. Just need to decide if it is worth $100k+ new, when there are used GT3's for another $20k. A used T, although hard to find I'm sure, would be a great compromise, if I could find one for ~$85k.

You should forget the 991 and go with the 718 GT4 rumored to have 420hp at around 3000 lbs mid engine. I've sold the 981GT4 for the GT3T what sets the .2GT3 apart is that beautiful motorsport motor with the 9k redline. I like mid engine but rwd cars like the M2 can be more fun since Porsche is too perfect.

I myself decided to go M2C. The large brakes and motor and revised suspension quite an improvement to make the change. I had both the M2 and the E46M3. Both great cars.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by gtr

You should forget the 991 and go with the 718 GT4 rumored to have 420hp at around 3000 lbs mid engine. I've sold the 987GT4 for the GT3T what sets the .2GT3 apart is that beautiful motorsport motor with the 9k redline. I like mid engine but rwd cars like the M2 can be more fun since Porsche is too perfect.

I myself decided to go M2C. The large brakes and motor and revised suspension quite an improvement to make the change. I had both the M2 and the E46M3. Both great cars.

You're right, for that price the GT4 is a better car. I suspect they will be hard to get for MSRP though.

[M2audioman]

This has to be among the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Why would someone's wife have this much control over their husband's car purchases? Get a divorce. Problem solved.

And yes... I am married and my wife couldn't care less about my car purchases.

[STK]

This might be crazy, but have you considered a used, dedicated track/race car? This is going to be just a track car, right?

Otherwise, P car all the way. It's obvious that's what you want.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

Life is short. Get what you want, even if you have to be patient and wait a bit for it.

On the converse and not wishing this on anyone you could be dead tomorrow.

There will be a new M2 in a couple years like some said. There will also be a new GT3. I live by YOLO as long as it's not financially irresponsible.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by dmk08

On the converse and not wishing this on anyone you could be dead tomorrow.

There will be a new M2 in a couple years like some said. There will also be a new GT3. I live by YOLO as long as it's not financially irresponsible.

YOLO! Agreed. You only get one ride on the merry go around (Depending on Religion)