[heli_ben]

Originally Posted by Sebastian212az

Already went through my first set of tires in 1 month, just got R888R on and these things hook like crazy!

How many miles?

Any track time?

[Proctor750]

Originally Posted by oshalygin

IDK about you guys but when I drive home and rain comes through, I don't want to end up dying because the tire is amazing for AutoX limit handling but can't handle the slightest amount of wet.

Most people bring a separate set of wheels/tires. In most cases R comp, the all seasons can go on after the track sessions.

[aerokubectl]

Originally Posted by Proctor750

Most people bring a separate set of wheels/tires. In most cases R comp, the all seasons can go on after the track sessions.

FYI No such thing as race or R compound it's just marketing .

[Sideshow]

Originally Posted by oshalygin

You do realize just because the tire name is the same doesn't mean anything right? The name on the tire means very little. The actual tread, ply angles, ply material, compound, bead and apexes are all different on an OE tire vs a replacement tire even though they have the same name.

What am I saying don't trust me, I only worked in this industry for 10 years, you can go ahead and read random tire rack reviews

If I'm reading what you're saying is that the Michelin's I replace the tire that came on my M2 with, that has the exact same name and specifications when the OE's wear out will be different?

Michelin has a "different" (though same name and specifications) set of tread, ply angles, ply material, compound, bead and apexes for EVERY car when they will be the OEM tires?

So there are hundreds of tread, ply angles, ply material, compound, bead and apexes for OEM fitment (for each car they will be fitted on) of the MPSS but just one for aftermarket and they are all different?

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Sideshow

If I'm reading what you're saying is that the Michelin's I replace the tire that came on my M2 with, that has the exact same name and specifications when the OE's wear out will be different?

Michelin has a "different" (though same name and specifications) set of tread, ply angles, ply material, compound, bead and apexes for EVERY car when they will be the OEM tires?

So there are hundreds of tread, ply angles, ply material, compound, bead and apexes for OEM fitment (for each car they will be fitted on) of the MPSS but just one for aftermarket and they are all different?

He already stated 'don't trust me'.

I really(and I mean really) don't get his statements either....



OEM tyres on a streetcar are a compromise: On a trackday you change them for tyres (more) suitable for trackdays and in wintertime/snow etc for wintertyres. Etcetera.

That's how I see it.

Cheers
Robin

[Poochie]

It's was 18 degrees here today in the east coast, so I'm glad I invested in some winter tires..

My choice is Dunlop Wintersport 4D.

I lost the quick steering response and instant lane change I had from the Michelin PSS but at least I won't end up in a ditch, in below-freezing temperatures.. #Compromise

[Robin_NL]

Exactly.^^^

Overhere at 8:45 AM, zero degrees Celsius. 32F.
18 degrees is hot

Cheers
Robin

[Proctor750]

Originally Posted by oshalygin

FYI No such thing as race or R compound it's just marketing .

Sorry, what is the correct nomenclature for a DOT-R tire that has no tread and a very specific temperature operating range?

[aerokubectl]

Originally Posted by Proctor750

Sorry, what is the correct nomenclature for a DOT-R tire that has no tread and a very specific temperature operating range?

There's no such thing as `DOT-R` tire. The DOT guidelines are posted online and most T&RA supplemental material, you wont find anything thats labeled `DOT-R` in any of the laws/regulations. There are tires with uber low UTQG rating(low tread death) which is probably what most people refer to as "R compound".

The temperature range is useless and BS. It doesn't mean anything and doesn't correlate to anything performance related, its just a DOT checkmark, same with UTQG, doesn't mean shit. If you're not running U91(which is biased in its own right), you wont really know what the treadwear is.

[aerokubectl]

Originally Posted by Sideshow

If I'm reading what you're saying is that the Michelin's I replace the tire that came on my M2 with, that has the exact same name and specifications when the OE's wear out will be different?

Yes if you dont get the OEM spec tire it will be substantially different. Every car manufacturer sets targets for snow, wet handling, wet stopping, dry stopping, limit handling, noise, vibration, etc. All of these targets are VERY hard to hit because tire design is mostly a tradeoff game with a spider chart.

Depending on what the car is, the targets will be higher or lower, accordingly.
A Prius isn't going to have the same limit handling targets as an M2 for instance.

That said, car manufacturers give zero shits about treadwear, as long as it doesn't wear in 10k miles. Usually the target was 30k miles. In the replacement market, you will get eaten alive if you dont provide at least 50k miles. I'm not talking specifically about performance tires here(which are obviously a lot lower, but the same design approach applies here).

As I've said before, a very important part in OEM tire design is making sure it performs well for the 1st time car buyer. If the tire is making too much noise or is causing oscillations at certain speeds, do you think the driver says "wow these tires suck". No they say, "damn this car is loud or it feels rough". OEMs are very well aware of this and they are in the business of selling cars.

The other part is getting good reviews in car mags and youtube blogs. People test these cars on stock tires, and if the tire doesnt perform, gg for the car.

Originally Posted by Sideshow

Michelin has a "different" (though same name and specifications) set of tread, ply angles, ply material, compound, bead and apexes for EVERY car when they will be the OEM tires?

Yes, 100%. You have to remember, BMW doesn't just say "thank you for the tire! Sounds good to us, you're the experts!" They actually have their own tire engineers and test drivers that will make sure you hit the targets set by the OEM. The targets are considerably different from the replacement market and are VERY hard to hit. Depending on what car it is, you can go half a year into development and multiple tire build cycles to try and get the performance you're looking for.

Making a tire handle well in the dry is easy, but try to make sure that it can still be driven in the snow and not vibrate too much or cause too much noise, or still be able to stop in the rain, well, lol.

In the US, we aren't known for two sets of tires(winter/summer), all-season is king here, regardless of the enthusiast market. Most people will not buy winter specific tires unless they live in areas with MASSIVE amounts of snowf all. But if you live in Ohio, will you buy winter tires? Yeah unlikely, you'll expect the all-season thing on the tire to mean something...which makes design infinitely harder.

Originally Posted by Sideshow

So there are hundreds of tread, ply angles, ply material, compound, bead and apexes for OEM fitment (for each car they will be fitted on) of the MPSS but just one for aftermarket and they are all different?

MPSS, the name, is on the OEM fitment for marketing reasons(for the tire manufacturer). The tread pattern will be "close" enough but things like the groove width, tread pitch, shoulder block width, inner pattern, etc are going to be different.

They want you to associate high performance/great experience with that tire and that brand. What tire companies like Michelin, GY, Conti, try to do is make sure tires are not a commodity.

Typically for a replacement tire there are 3-4 different tire sizes across the whole line that are ACTUALLY tested on a vehicle and the rest are extrapolated through software engineering.

For a whole replacement line you pick very common sizes for that brand, lets say for a Michelin Pilot Sport A/S you choose 215/60/R16, 245/45/R18, 265/35/R20(I'm just picking sizes here), then for those sizes you find the appropriate vehicle(youd be surprised that a lot of mini vans fit these sizes, but you dont put them up as test vehicles because most people buying a MPSS won't be offered those tires). So you get a M2, Focus RS, Camaro, Corvette and start testing? Nope! You are going to get broad market cars that are produced in high quantities, like a 3 series or A4s. Those are the cars you need to make sure this tire fits PERFECTLY for, because those are the people that are going to give your tire reviews and drive on it more than anyone else.

You have to remember, most people shop tires by price, regardless of the enthusiast market. Most people will buy the cheapest or the 2nd cheapest tire. Hopefully, they buy a reputable brand(one of the 1st tier manufacturers). These are the people who will disregard tirerack/consumer reports if the tire sucks for their car but is awesome for say an M2. "lol tirerack says this thing is amazing but it drives awful on my car and I only got 30k miles out of this tire!! Its also awful in the snow but its labeled as an all season tire!!"

Again, working in the industry I've seen it all and honestly we faceplamned all the time when we read tire rack reviews. I read all the ones for the tires that I developed and half the time i'm lol'ing because the objective data totally disproves what people are saying or they literally bought the wrong tire for their application. People buying GY Eagle F1s and complaining about treadwear >_> or worse yet is that it sucks on a Focus RS(duh we would never pick this as the test vehicle)

TLDR: food for thought, ymmv

[dgm3]

Originally Posted by oshalygin

Yes if you dont get the OEM spec tire it will be substantially different. Every car manufacturer sets targets for snow, wet handling, wet stopping, dry stopping, limit handling, noise, vibration, etc. All of these targets are VERY hard to hit because tire design is mostly a tradeoff game with a spider chart.

Depending on what the car is, the targets will be higher or lower, accordingly.
A Prius isn't going to have the same limit handling targets as an M2 for instance.

That said, car manufacturers give zero shits about treadwear, as long as it doesn't wear in 10k miles. Usually the target was 30k miles. In the replacement market, you will get eaten alive if you dont provide at least 50k miles. I'm not talking specifically about performance tires here(which are obviously a lot lower, but the same design approach applies here).

As I've said before, a very important part in OEM tire design is making sure it performs well for the 1st time car buyer. If the tire is making too much noise or is causing oscillations at certain speeds, do you think the driver says "wow these tires suck". No they say, "damn this car is loud or it feels rough". OEMs are very well aware of this and they are in the business of selling cars.

The other part is getting good reviews in car mags and youtube blogs. People test these cars on stock tires, and if the tire doesnt perform, gg for the car.



Yes, 100%. You have to remember, BMW doesn't just say "thank you for the tire! Sounds good to us, you're the experts!" They actually have their own tire engineers and test drivers that will make sure you hit the targets set by the OEM. The targets are considerably different from the replacement market and are VERY hard to hit. Depending on what car it is, you can go half a year into development and multiple tire build cycles to try and get the performance you're looking for.

Making a tire handle well in the dry is easy, but try to make sure that it can still be driven in the snow and not vibrate too much or cause too much noise, or still be able to stop in the rain, well, lol.

In the US, we aren't known for two sets of tires(winter/summer), all-season is king here, regardless of the enthusiast market. Most people will not buy winter specific tires unless they live in areas with MASSIVE amounts of snowf all. But if you live in Ohio, will you buy winter tires? Yeah unlikely, you'll expect the all-season thing on the tire to mean something...which makes design infinitely harder.




MPSS, the name, is on the OEM fitment for marketing reasons(for the tire manufacturer). The tread pattern will be "close" enough but things like the groove width, tread pitch, shoulder block width, inner pattern, etc are going to be different.

They want you to associate high performance/great experience with that tire and that brand. What tire companies like Michelin, GY, Conti, try to do is make sure tires are not a commodity.

Typically for a replacement tire there are 3-4 different tire sizes across the whole line that are ACTUALLY tested on a vehicle and the rest are extrapolated through software engineering.

For a whole replacement line you pick very common sizes for that brand, lets say for a Michelin Pilot Sport A/S you choose 215/60/R16, 245/45/R18, 265/35/R20(I'm just picking sizes here), then for those sizes you find the appropriate vehicle(youd be surprised that a lot of mini vans fit these sizes, but you dont put them up as test vehicles because most people buying a MPSS won't be offered those tires). So you get a M2, Focus RS, Camaro, Corvette and start testing? Nope! You are going to get broad market cars that are produced in high quantities, like a 3 series or A4s. Those are the cars you need to make sure this tire fits PERFECTLY for, because those are the people that are going to give your tire reviews and drive on it more than anyone else.

You have to remember, most people shop tires by price, regardless of the enthusiast market. Most people will buy the cheapest or the 2nd cheapest tire. Hopefully, they buy a reputable brand(one of the 1st tier manufacturers). These are the people who will disregard tirerack/consumer reports if the tire sucks for their car but is awesome for say an M2. "lol tirerack says this thing is amazing but it drives awful on my car and I only got 30k miles out of this tire!! Its also awful in the snow but its labeled as an all season tire!!"

Again, working in the industry I've seen it all and honestly we faceplamned all the time when we read tire rack reviews. I read all the ones for the tires that I developed and half the time i'm lol'ing because the objective data totally disproves what people are saying or they literally bought the wrong tire for their application. People buying GY Eagle F1s and complaining about treadwear >_> or worse yet is that it sucks on a Focus RS(duh we would never pick this as the test vehicle)

TLDR: food for thought, ymmv

oshalygin...great efforts but I think you are a little bit loosing your time. Tire technology is obviously very complex and I believe that 99% of the people on this forum, although being car enthusiasts, do not have the technical background to understand some of your detailed explanations in previous posts. Yet I hope that at least they will get the point about differences between OE and replacement tires...and stop the naive judgments/comparisons solely based on tire name or even outside appearance.

[Proctor750]

Originally Posted by oshalygin

There's no such thing as `DOT-R` tire. The DOT guidelines are posted online and most T&RA supplemental material, you wont find anything thats labeled `DOT-R` in any of the laws/regulations. There are tires with uber low UTQG rating(low tread death) which is probably what most people refer to as "R compound".

The temperature range is useless and BS. It doesn't mean anything and doesn't correlate to anything performance related, its just a DOT checkmark, same with UTQG, doesn't mean shit. If you're not running U91(which is biased in its own right), you wont really know what the treadwear is.

I still don't seem to have an answer to my question.

As for temperature are you saying cold (insert correct nomenclature) tires work as well as when warm?

[aerokubectl]

Originally Posted by Proctor750

As for temperature are you saying cold (insert correct nomenclature) tires work as well as when warm?

No, every tire has an optimal operating temp range. You're not going to get that range without controlled tests.

It depends what you mean by "tires work" because all it really tells you is where the hysteric band is. Snow compounds will disintegrate during hot temperatures and summer compounds will fracture and have near zero hysteretic movement in cold temps.

[aerokubectl]

Originally Posted by dgm3

oshalygin...great efforts but I think you are a little bit loosing your time. Tire technology is obviously very complex and I believe that 99% of the people on this forum, although being car enthusiasts, do not have the technical background to understand some of your detailed explanations in previous posts. Yet I hope that at least they will get the point about differences between OE and replacement tires...and stop the naive judgments/comparisons solely based on tire name or even outside appearance.

I know you're right but I am just burning time waiting for my car to arrive
I truly hope at least someone will take something away and not buy a cheap tire and give their OE tire a bit more respect .

Trust me no tire manufacturer wants to spend 250k on an OE tire development firmament if they could of just slapped on a replacement tire. They would if they could and very rarely it has happened(I've seen it once for FCA)

[Proctor750]

Originally Posted by oshalygin

No, every tire has an optimal operating temp range. You're not going to get that range without controlled tests.

It depends what you mean by "tires work" because all it really tells you is where the hysteric band is. Snow compounds will disintegrate during hot temperatures and summer compounds will fracture and have near zero hysteretic movement in cold temps.

So you're saying effective temperature range is a factor in tire choice..

Also, what is the correct nomenclature for a tire with zero tread depth and high effective temperature operating range? Is there perhaps an easy to use adjective that most people with or without in depth knowledge of tire construction would easily understand?

I can think of a few..

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Proctor750

Also, what is the correct nomenclature for a tire with zero tread depth and high effective temperature operating range? Is there perhaps an easy to use adjective that most people with or without in depth knowledge of tire construction would easily understand?

I can think of a few..

"R-comp" is a connotation that started in the 1980s. Technically, I suppose one would point to the Yokohama A001R since for its era in the early 1980s it had tremendous grip and quick wear, and was the first tire to use the "R" suffix. However, it was a full tread depth tire that was not yet a fully specialized, meant for track use tire.

A few years later Yokohama came out with the A-008 street tire which was the first tire to use a noticeably wider single outer tread block for more stability/grip/less squirm/etc under dry cornering. Within a 1-1.5 years they added the A-008R which had a much larger outer tread block, significantly lower tread depth and a higher grip/higher wear rate compound. The tire was one of the first tires to be outright dangerous to use near or outside its lower temperature range. Great track tire and by far the fastest DOT approved tire at the time. I loved them and left a lot of A-008R rubber at Summit Point all through the late 1980s.

Just prior to the A-008R, Goodyear actually launched what some would call the actual first "R-comp" tire. It was available in a number of sizes that the standard (and then recently announced Gatorback tire that arrived when the C4 Vette did), and it was noted by an "S" following the "VR50" or "VR55". It was commonly called the Gatorback S. It was molded with a sticky compound, and after manufacturing they were all shaved to 5/32s. It was designed for showroom stock racing, and many used them for track events. I bought one of the first sets available in 1985, and they were fantastic tires that immediately allowed me to drop over 2 sec off my lap times at Summit Point.

So in my experience, track rats and autocrossers, etc, started calling purpose built, DOT approved, low tread depth, sticky compound specialty tires "R-comps" once the A-008R came out. Once TW values started being required, many car clubs started referring to tires with TW100 or less as "R-compound" tires fwiw.

[808elise]

Originally Posted by Sebastian212az

Already went through my first set of tires in 1 month, just got R888R on and these things hook like crazy!

Tell me about it! Couldn't get traction for anything on my turbo e46m till I put r888s on. Running 335/18s and hooks 780whp no prob. This thread has got hilarious considering anyone here actually thinks our stock tires could even come close to sticking like r888rs... What size tire u went with front and rear? Only issue is they wear ultra fast. Love the sidewalls!