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      03-03-2020, 02:04 PM   #463
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What size is that?
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      03-03-2020, 07:45 PM   #464
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What size is that?
5" Standard HD
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      03-03-2020, 08:36 PM   #465
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The VRSF intercooler at $340 is just an absolutely ridiculous price
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      03-03-2020, 08:44 PM   #466
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5" Standard HD
For a car running stock tune but seeing lots of track time, would the VRSF 5Ē be enough?
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      03-03-2020, 11:54 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing View Post
For a car running stock tune but seeing lots of track time, would the VRSF 5Ē be enough?
it depends on your mods, if you are running stage 2 maps I recommend a 6" intercooler
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      03-04-2020, 06:28 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
it depends on your mods, if you are running stage 2 maps I recommend a 6" intercooler
I have no mods to the intake, exhaust, or maps of any kind.
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      03-04-2020, 07:58 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing View Post
I have no mods to the intake, exhaust, or maps of any kind.
Iíve narrowed my search down to 2 intercoolers - 3 maybe.

ER - the prior best intercooler. You donít hear about it much anymore, but Iíve never seen anything bad about it, or anything compared to it really.

VRSF 6.5 and/or Race - Not sure this is the same, but these just get things done. They are old school. No rounded end ranks, or fancy design. Itís straight up big and thatís how the job gets done. Itís also cheaper.

ATM/CSF - Iíve read a ton. The most track worthy, holds records for fastest N55 (until recently I believe - Iím tired, I was up all night reading) the ATM should flow better and have less lag than the CSF, both are better than the Evo 2 from every test Iíve seen. Also cheaper.



Why not:

AA - too small. (Goes for all 5Ēcores)
eBay - Garbage
Wagner - Evo 3 has no test, the Evo 2 is outright inferior to the others mention in absolute cooling. Even the claimed faster recovery doesnít measure up on the track where it heats up quicker and higher than the rest, and itís smaller meaning itís absolute ability to hold heat is lower.
Do88 - same as the Wagner. Itís better in terms of absolutes keeping temps, but it was 5* vs 10* or so for the ATM/CSF. No reason to buy this over the other more capable options.
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      03-04-2020, 08:19 AM   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
I’ve narrowed my search down to 2 intercoolers - 3 maybe.

ER - the prior best intercooler. You don’t hear about it much anymore, but I’ve never seen anything bad about it, or anything compared to it really.

VRSF 6.5 and/or Race - Not sure this is the same, but these just get things done. They are old school. No rounded end ranks, or fancy design. It’s straight up big and that’s how the job gets done. It’s also cheaper.

ATM/CSF - I’ve read a ton. The most track worthy, holds records for fastest N55 (until recently I believe - I’m tired, I was up all night reading) the ATM should flow better and have less lag than the CSF, both are better than the Evo 2 from every test I’ve seen. Also cheaper.



Why not:

AA - too small. (Goes for all 5”cores)
eBay - Garbage
Wagner - Evo 3 has no test, the Evo 2 is outright inferior to the others mention in absolute cooling. Even the claimed faster recovery doesn’t measure up on the track where it heats up quicker and higher than the rest, and it’s smaller meaning it’s absolute ability to hold heat is lower.
Do88 - same as the Wagner. It’s better in terms of absolutes keeping temps, but it was 5* vs 10* or so for the ATM/CSF. No reason to buy this over the other more capable options.
I'm not really interested in one of the giant radiators that require modification or pulling the bumper off to install. If it's not plug and play, I've gotta pay my shop to install it, which increases the cost of the part exponentially. For my application, I look at it as more of a reliability mod. With the VRSF so cheap right now, I'm just wondering if it's enough of an upgrade over the stock intercooler to go for it.
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      03-04-2020, 08:59 AM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing View Post
I'm not really interested in one of the giant radiators that require modification or pulling the bumper off to install. If it's not plug and play, I've gotta pay my shop to install it, which increases the cost of the part exponentially. For my application, I look at it as more of a reliability mod. With the VRSF so cheap right now, I'm just wondering if it's enough of an upgrade over the stock intercooler to go for it.
Everything I listed is plug and play. The VRSF 6Ē may not cool as well as the others, but it is cheap.
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      03-04-2020, 09:18 AM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
I’ve narrowed my search down to 2 intercoolers - 3 maybe.

ER - the prior best intercooler. You don’t hear about it much anymore, but I’ve never seen anything bad about it, or anything compared to it really.

VRSF 6.5 and/or Race - Not sure this is the same, but these just get things done. They are old school. No rounded end ranks, or fancy design. It’s straight up big and that’s how the job gets done. It’s also cheaper.

ATM/CSF - I’ve read a ton. The most track worthy, holds records for fastest N55 (until recently I believe - I’m tired, I was up all night reading) the ATM should flow better and have less lag than the CSF, both are better than the Evo 2 from every test I’ve seen. Also cheaper.



Why not:

AA - too small. (Goes for all 5”cores)
eBay - Garbage
Wagner - Evo 3 has no test, the Evo 2 is outright inferior to the others mention in absolute cooling. Even the claimed faster recovery doesn’t measure up on the track where it heats up quicker and higher than the rest, and it’s smaller meaning it’s absolute ability to hold heat is lower.
Do88 - same as the Wagner. It’s better in terms of absolutes keeping temps, but it was 5* vs 10* or so for the ATM/CSF. No reason to buy this over the other more capable options.
Just a note that I haven’t seen the M2 listed as an application for the ATM.

I’ll also make the same comment here that I did on the F30 board. Point is, the best IC for someone is the one that has the best blend of characteristics for their use, not just cooling capacity.

For me, a 10F IAT improvement isn’t going to make much of an impact for guys running Emixes on track. I wouldn’t trade to a 5-10lb heavier IC with worse throttle response to gain what would only be a few hp on an Emix tune on track.

If you run 93 octane on track, then the 10F difference will be noticeable on hot days.

To get a 20F+ difference over the Evo 2 Comp we’re talking about needing a massive IC, all of which are going to be 30lbs+. I haven’t seen that any of the massive bar/plate IC’s have that kind of performance gain without making lag even worse.

Apparently the Evo 3 achieves all these things from Wagner’s data, but no one knows why it will fit the M235i and not the M2.

Last edited by ZM2; 03-04-2020 at 09:36 AM..
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      03-04-2020, 10:17 AM   #473
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Please stop spreading mis-information. The VRSF 6.5" Competition HD along with the 6.5" Race FMIC were both designed using CFD analysis and both incorporate incredibly efficient cast end tanks. The fin packs were specifically engineered to provide the best balance between external cooling and internal flow. There's nothing old school about our intercoolers

The VRSF 6.5" Race will outcool EVERY intercooler you've listed and it's currently featured on both the fastest N55 powered car along with the highest horsepower. It's less expensive because we don't slap on a BMW tax like the other brands mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
I’ve narrowed my search down to 2 intercoolers - 3 maybe.

ER - the prior best intercooler. You don’t hear about it much anymore, but I’ve never seen anything bad about it, or anything compared to it really.

VRSF 6.5 and/or Race - Not sure this is the same, but these just get things done. They are old school. No rounded end ranks, or fancy design. It’s straight up big and that’s how the job gets done. It’s also cheaper.

ATM/CSF - I’ve read a ton. The most track worthy, holds records for fastest N55 (until recently I believe - I’m tired, I was up all night reading) the ATM should flow better and have less lag than the CSF, both are better than the Evo 2 from every test I’ve seen. Also cheaper.



Why not:

AA - too small. (Goes for all 5”cores)
eBay - Garbage
Wagner - Evo 3 has no test, the Evo 2 is outright inferior to the others mention in absolute cooling. Even the claimed faster recovery doesn’t measure up on the track where it heats up quicker and higher than the rest, and it’s smaller meaning it’s absolute ability to hold heat is lower.
Do88 - same as the Wagner. It’s better in terms of absolutes keeping temps, but it was 5* vs 10* or so for the ATM/CSF. No reason to buy this over the other more capable options.
Here's a 2nd through 4th gear pull with our 6.5" Race FMIC. The starting temp is 89 degrees and ends at 86 degrees. 3 degrees lower than the initial starting temp.



Here's another set of logs from a customer who upgraded to the VRSF 6.5" Race FMIC from the Wagner Evo 2. He was seeing a 75 degree increase (37F - 112F) with the Wagner Evo 2 on a 2-5 gear pull where the VRSF only saw a 39 degree increase (50F to 89F).







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      03-04-2020, 10:44 AM   #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
Iíve narrowed my search down to 2 intercoolers - 3 maybe.

ER - the prior best intercooler. You donít hear about it much anymore, but Iíve never seen anything bad about it, or anything compared to it really.

VRSF 6.5 and/or Race - Not sure this is the same, but these just get things done. They are old school. No rounded end ranks, or fancy design. Itís straight up big and thatís how the job gets done. Itís also cheaper.

ATM/CSF - Iíve read a ton. The most track worthy, holds records for fastest N55 (until recently I believe - Iím tired, I was up all night reading) the ATM should flow better and have less lag than the CSF, both are better than the Evo 2 from every test Iíve seen. Also cheaper.



Why not:

AA - too small. (Goes for all 5Ēcores)
eBay - Garbage
Wagner - Evo 3 has no test, the Evo 2 is outright inferior to the others mention in absolute cooling. Even the claimed faster recovery doesnít measure up on the track where it heats up quicker and higher than the rest, and itís smaller meaning itís absolute ability to hold heat is lower.
Do88 - same as the Wagner. Itís better in terms of absolutes keeping temps, but it was 5* vs 10* or so for the ATM/CSF. No reason to buy this over the other more capable options.

Now you need to decide if you want to pull the front bumper cover and/or modify or remove the front brace prior to making your decision. Some require it, some don't.
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      03-04-2020, 10:46 AM   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
<snip>

I PM'd you.
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      03-04-2020, 11:08 AM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Just a note that I havenít seen the M2 listed as an application for the ATM.

Iíll also make the same comment here that I did on the F30 board. Point is, the best IC for someone is the one that has the best blend of characteristics for their use, not just cooling capacity.

For me, a 10F IAT improvement isnít going to make much of an impact for guys running Emixes on track. I wouldnít trade to a 5-10lb heavier IC with worse throttle response to gain what would only be a few hp on an Emix tune on track.

If you run 93 octane on track, then the 10F difference will be noticeable on hot days.

To get a 20F+ difference over the Evo 2 Comp weíre talking about needing a massive IC, all of which are going to be 30lbs+. I havenít seen that any of the massive bar/plate ICís have that kind of performance gain without making lag even worse.

Apparently the Evo 3 achieves all these things from Wagnerís data, but no one knows why it will fit the M235i and not the M2.
Youíre not going to notice 10lbs, but you will notice your car overheating and pulling power. I saw you changed from the Dinan? Or Do88 to the Wagner to run into the same overheating issues on the track that you had before, despite running a lower cell count on downpipe. The Wagner is just smaller than the others, and every post I saw of people actually running them at the track shows they just donít perform as well as the others.

On the street, I think it might be a great choice due to the claimed superior throttle response, and the less demanding needs.
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      03-04-2020, 11:10 AM   #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
Please stop spreading mis-information. The VRSF 6.5" Competition HD along with the 6.5" Race FMIC were both designed using CFD analysis and both incorporate incredibly efficient cast end tanks. The fin packs were specifically engineered to provide the best balance between external cooling and internal flow. There's nothing old school about our intercoolers

The VRSF 6.5" Race will outcool EVERY intercooler you've listed and it's currently featured on both the fastest N55 powered car along with the highest horsepower. It's less expensive because we don't slap on a BMW tax like the other brands mentioned.



Here's a 2nd through 4th gear pull with our 6.5" Race FMIC. The starting temp is 89 degrees and ends at 86 degrees. 3 degrees lower than the initial starting temp.



Here's another set of logs from a customer who upgraded to the VRSF 6.5" Race FMIC from the Wagner Evo 2. He was seeing a 75 degree increase (37F - 112F) with the Wagner Evo 2 on a 2-5 gear pull where the VRSF only saw a 39 degree increase (50F to 89F).







Impressive stuff. Iíll admit that I got confused looking at the VRSF stuff and wasnít sure if the 6Ē and the race were the same.

Any data on pressure drop/throttle response? How modifications needed to install it? Running any sales?
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      03-04-2020, 01:03 PM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
You’re not going to notice 10lbs, but you will notice your car overheating and pulling power. I saw you changed from the Dinan? Or Do88 to the Wagner to run into the same overheating issues on the track that you had before, despite running a lower cell count on downpipe. The Wagner is just smaller than the others, and every post I saw of people actually running them at the track shows they just don’t perform as well as the others.

On the street, I think it might be a great choice due to the claimed superior throttle response, and the less demanding needs.
I'll forgive you for not knowing the exact details of my upgrade and track testing path, as there are numerous posts to sift thru.

The general consensus on my overheating issue is it is oil temp related, and will require some custom oil cooler work, similar to what the Tyspeed guys did.

As for IATs, the Evo 2 Comp did perform better than the Dinan, even while I increased power significantly from Dinantronics to BM3 Stg 2H E30. If you run an Emix on track, the impact from any increase in IATs, including timing pull, is reduced. You can see this in the many 93 octane, 100 octane, and various Emix logs I've posted.

So, I'm not willing to give up my better throttle response during the 75% of time I drive my car on the street, vs reducing IATs by 10F during the 25% of time I'm on track bc the impact of 10F when running an Emix really isn't noticeable.

My interest in all this reemerged when the Evo 3 came out b/c it seemed to give the best of everything, but it apparently doesn't fit the M2 and I haven't seen any independent testing.

If someone who's had an Evo 2 Comp could chime in independently regarding their experiences jumping to the CSF or VRSF IC's, and can show that they reduced IATs by an additional 20F over the Wagner during a 30-45-min 95F+ summer track day, and they can say subjectively that they don't notice worse throttle response when on/off the gas in stop & go traffic, then I'm all ears.

Unfortunately, it sounds like I may need to be that guinea pig, unless a forum member can pipe up.

Last edited by ZM2; 03-04-2020 at 01:16 PM..
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      03-04-2020, 01:52 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
Everything I listed is plug and play. The VRSF 6Ē may not cool as well as the others, but it is cheap.
How do you define plug and play? To me plug and play is no modifications.
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      03-04-2020, 02:00 PM   #480
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https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1654219
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      03-04-2020, 02:15 PM   #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I'll forgive you for not knowing the exact details of my upgrade and track testing path, as there are numerous posts to sift thru.

The general consensus on my overheating issue is it is oil temp related, and will require some custom oil cooler work, similar to what the Tyspeed guys did.

As for IATs, the Evo 2 Comp did perform better than the Dinan, even while I increased power significantly from Dinantronics to BM3 Stg 2H E30. If you run an Emix on track, the impact from any increase in IATs, including timing pull, is reduced. You can see this in the many 93 octane, 100 octane, and various Emix logs I've posted.

So, I'm not willing to give up my better throttle response during the 75% of time I drive my car on the street, vs reducing IATs by 10F during the 25% of time I'm on track bc the impact of 10F when running an Emix really isn't noticeable.

My interest in all this reemerged when the Evo 3 came out b/c it seemed to give the best of everything, but it apparently doesn't fit the M2 and I haven't seen any independent testing.

If someone who's had an Evo 2 Comp could chime in independently regarding their experiences jumping to the CSF or VRSF IC's, and can show that they reduced IATs by an additional 20F over the Wagner during a 30-45-min 95F+ summer track day, and they can say subjectively that they don't notice worse throttle response when on/off the gas in stop & go traffic, then I'm all ears.

Unfortunately, it sounds like I may need to be that guinea pig, unless a forum member can pipe up.
I read you posts in detail multiple times, including last night. Yes, your temp increases were more gradual - but that was because you are running a flash tune vs piggyback and a lower cell count on the catalyst (Which drops egts) Iím saying this as definitive fact - itís not as good of a track intercooler as the others. Itís physically smaller, and every review against similar coolers (the VRSF one featured above) proves there is PLENTY left to improve.

I agree, for the street itís great. Iíve been looking for a new cooler and I donít want excess lag myself, because I daily drive the car. But I personally canít justify paying more for a less capable (in absolute sense) intercooler because of what may amount to an imperceivable amount of lag. Again, thatís just me. If it were major lag spikes (like I heard the CFS caused on the single scroll turbo that FaRKle! runs) yeah, I might be more inclined to lean in that direction.

Iím just curious about this VRSF one now, because itís on sale - and itís god plenty of headroom for my needs. I hope to be tracking the car more frequently and donít want to run into IAT issues.
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      03-04-2020, 02:18 PM   #482
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Thank you for this! Is it a 6.5Ē or 6Ē did you sell it already?
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      03-04-2020, 02:44 PM   #483
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Thank you for this! Is it a 6.5Ē or 6Ē did you sell it already?
6.5 and sold it. Put in a CSF and couldn't be happier. I made sure the buyer had all the info about fitment prior to selling it.
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      03-04-2020, 03:06 PM   #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
I read you posts in detail multiple times, including last night. Yes, your temp increases were more gradual - but that was because you are running a flash tune vs piggyback and a lower cell count on the catalyst (Which drops egts) Iím saying this as definitive fact - itís not as good of a track intercooler as the others. Itís physically smaller, and every review against similar coolers (the VRSF one featured above) proves there is PLENTY left to improve.

I agree, for the street itís great. Iíve been looking for a new cooler and I donít want excess lag myself, because I daily drive the car. But I personally canít justify paying more for a less capable (in absolute sense) intercooler because of what may amount to an imperceivable amount of lag. Again, thatís just me. If it were major lag spikes (like I heard the CFS caused on the single scroll turbo that FaRKle! runs) yeah, I might be more inclined to lean in that direction.

Iím just curious about this VRSF one now, because itís on sale - and itís god plenty of headroom for my needs. I hope to be tracking the car more frequently and donít want to run into IAT issues.
And all this is why I want the Evo 3 to work. Iíll keep dreaming, or order it and try it, or have them do a custom one.
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