[DKX4///M]

Many need to re-read my OP. I am not against ethanol. I highlight the risks of running more than 20-30% on a stock M2 fuel system. Your custom built fuel systems are impressive but have nothing to do w my post...I am experimenting with small wet nitrous shots to make up for the turbos lack of boost higher rpms, ive built a complete system from fuel cell, pump, regulator, worked out exact calculations of extra fuel requirment and will be using a custom.Low boost map with ignition retard even with a 35-50 wetshot only active from 5500-6800 RPM.

Again ethanol is a great beneficial fuel option. But NOT for a car thats maxed out its hpfp stock.

[DKX4///M]

I get responses of i run ethanol on my fully built custom fuel system, or ive been running 20% for a year no problem....Again Ive run 30% on occassion, and custom fuel systems run 100% ethanol. if its made for it...I think as the thread has gone on longer my point has been lost. It seems many posters failed to even read my OP at all.

[Commanderwiggin]

You're all over the place man...

Without delving deeper into the original post lets talk about why you think nitrous is going to help with the "Turbo's lack of boost in higher rpm".

The boost can go way higher, however it's just going to keep pumping heat at higher boost. Also the motor is fighting with exhaust back pressure at that point which is why you see torque fall off in the higher rpms. Sure nitrous is going to make more power and torque in that range but the motor/turbo are just being pushed farther out of efficiency with even higher exhaust back pressure from the turbine. If you want to be smart you should put a bigger turbo on it and let the motor flow better at all rpms and then fill the low rpm zone with nitrous since you're going to spool later with a bigger turbine.

Regardless here we are talking about other things than your original post.

Your original post is an egotistical mix of info just blurted out. Please continue and tell us why you don't use E85.

[DKX4///M]

"egotistical info blurted out" lol. It was a point by point lists of factual information M2 owners should know. You please tell me what in my OP is incorrect or misleading. I made sure to include the positive aspects and even went on to say i run 20-30% ethanol in my M2 from time to time.

However your post goes on to link to your fuel system that neithor stock nor on the M2 platform. Albeit impressive, which again I still thanked you for your input and complimented your work. But if you want to start throwing stones, who is being egotistical here?

Now, please dont put words in my mouth. I really would rather not go tit for tat, but i must adress your shallow attack as I will debate internal combustion engine physics and chemisy any day of the week...I too have built not 1 but countless 500+ whp N20, turbo, s/c, all motor cars but this post is not the time or place to show off my endevours totally unrelated to my OP. That, I personally consider egotistical behavior....

Regarding back pressure, I run a 4" catless dp immediately followed by a QTP 3" exhaust cut out. In regards to nitrous making the turbos boost more, I think I stated clearly quite the opposite. I stated I would lower boost, use a small wetshot to compensate and ramp the nitrous inverse boost toward redline to take stress off the turbos. I think I made my point very clear.

Also back to my OP, some actually read it and agreed based on their direct experience. A member kindly linked a Popular Mechanics article highlighting most of my points, then you stepped in with a link innother words " hey everyone look at my fuel system i built" in a thread directed specifically at ethanol vs the OEM fuel system on the M2...Than go on to call my post egotistical. Laughable.

I took quite a bit of time writing that post to a group of ppl whome I will probably never meet to state FACTS on both the positive and negative attributes of running ethanol and lastly made a concerted effort to separate in my OP FACT vs. My own personal opinion.

Shame I even had to stoop this low to have to defend my factual OP which I selflessly wrote to benefit M2 owners so they could decide for themselves.

I think you sir should check your ego before showing off your custom fuel system in a post about stock fueling. Thanks

[DKX4///M]

And I apologize for going on any longer but apparently I have to point out that added port fuel injection of ethanol or gasoline is NOT a stock fuel system. And to those who im guessing did not read my OP. I actually spevifically stated exogenous addtions of methanol or ethanol are a great eay to add a great fuel into your system without the negative attributes. I personally run methanol on my M2 everyday.

Its sad you cant even post a factual thread in this forum in an attempt to educate and even possibly learn from.peoples feedback. Instead even with a seemingly large amount of appreciative people reading and adding their experiences, without childishly being called names...

one bad seed and assumingly a group of trolls whom I doubt gave me the benefit of ever reading the begining of this thread....have degenerated this post into a childish, post of name calling and bragging.

This is why I seldom post anymore and also a very clear difference from all the other forums on bimmerpost. the difference is sharp and upsetting.

[DKX4///M]

It seems anything but sinplistic black and white confuses and overwhems you so ill break jt down so even @commanderwiggin s brain can comprehend my point(s)

Ethanol > 105AKI as race fuel with proper fuel system

EXOGENEOUS ethanol/methanol = great for M2

10%-20% E85 in M2 = NOT Detrimental IMO for m2.

LARGE VOLUMES (over 30-40% ethanol) in a 100% stock M2 even with FOL raised, the hpfp will not be able to adequetly fuel the car.

Upgraded LPFP (HPFP When they become available)or other fuel upgrades can obviously increase the percentage of ethanol run to both....meet pressure targets, lower corrosive properties....

If thats all over the place and makes ni
o sense to you I feel bad. Do you tie your own tie.

I also noticed from other posts, you dont own or have ever owned an M2?.LOL...

Please continue to share your opinion on a car youve probably never driven or seen in person...

[Commanderwiggin]

Typical snowflake; your original post started off with "knowing you'll take heat" and since you can clearly go on and on...please enlighten us some more...since the original post was "short (for you)". Lol

Come in with personal results/logged data of your meth and wet nitrous setup and you might get some respect rather than copy/pasting google search info on ethanol and why you don't use it...that is the thread title after all.

Mods please remove my posts if it'll stop this guys blabbering.

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Typical snowflake; your original post started off with "knowing you'll take heat" and since you can clearly go on and on...please enlighten us some more...since the original post was "short (for you)". Lol

Come in with personal results/logged data of your meth and wet nitrous setup and you might get some respect rather than copy/pasting google search info on ethanol and why you don't use it...that is the thread title after all.

Mods please remove my posts if it'll stop this guys blabbering.

Copy and paste?

Please find the source where I copied and pasted. Just because you don't understand chemistry 101 doesn't mean anyone that can elaborate on basic chemistry is copying and pasting.... Please find the source I copied and pasted anything, I will personally leave this forum in shame...

Actually I went to school for physics and switched to chemistry in which I got my degree and went on to build and tune import cars for a living.

And BTW I do have a mod journal documenting my mods and my N20 setup on this site with 30k views, subscribers and people that go out of their way to thank me for the detail I go into and the educational nature of the thread..And a similar thread on e90post about my past e92 m3 that had I believe 100k views or close...


Do me a favor and don't contaminate it my constructive post with your condescending attitude. If you wanted to brag about your fully custom fuel system which actually supports the exact point of this post, go ahead...Don't start attacking me LOL.. But I am Glad my post worked you up enough to post 10 of your 100 total posts on this forum. Was that short enough?

[eksigned]

DKM2Power appreciate the knowledge. up until your post(s), I've had a difficult time finding a true pros and cons list to running a mixture of (2 gal) E85/91. good stuff! thank you!

[DKX4///M]

To anyone who insisted ethanol isn't corrosive to metals and isn't hydrophilic...Enjoy:
(Again I made this post, about my STOCK 2016 M2 N55 Fuel System...I state 10-20-30% Ethanol is ok, and adds power bc octane and also because extra oxygen content (Hence why ethanol stoichiometric is 9 to 1 vs 14.7 to 1 for gasoline...)

I also came across another peer reviewed study on a 2.3 L engine running at moderate load over just 20hrs, finding METHANOL is will cause corrosion to engine internals 15 times faster than gasoline or ethanol...This is on an engine running on 100% methanol...(EDIT: Pretty surprising, and I just posted this as an FYI, I highly doubt methanol or water/meth injection as supplemental fuel or to cool intake air or raise octane will cause this result just thought it was interesting)

https://www.intechopen.com/books/alc...l-environments

And while ethanol will not cause corrosion on internals and sometimes can even clean carbon deposits...It will add water content to gasoline over time, it will separate and absorb water over time...It will also evaporate faster...

Lastly, you must pay for these studies but multiple studies done by the ASE, show the short term harmful effects of alcohol on internals, finding methanol will corrode internals 15x's faster than gasoline or ethanol/ gas/ethanol blends...But ethanol will damage fuel components relatively quickly...Heres the study's conclusion (or full study if you wish to pay for it)...

https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/971648/


Also note on BMW engines which are Direct Injection, you WILL NOT GET the valve cleaning effects of ethanol as the fuels injected post intake valve and only will exist for a tiny fraction of a second before it combusts...

However, the most corrosive effects of Ethanol are are uncoated steel, aluminum, and different steel alloys, and many coated steel components are shown to effectively protect steel and aluminum fuel component parts...

This is all separate from the fact that ethanol has 1/3rd the potential energy of gasoline, aka between the lower potential energy, and the 30% more fuel volume required which strains fuel systems (such as EWG N55 OEM fuel systems)...

The B58, S55, S58, all have much more capable fuel systems that can support E50+ stock, some as much as E100 if tuned to take advantage....

Keep in mind, running higher octane than required to prevent knock will actually reduce efficiency and power, unless the engine is designed to detect ethanol content and thus raise boost or advance ignition timing... It seems the s58 engine actually runs stock ignition timing slightly too high for the boost levels (with 93 octane) so hypothetically the s58 should produce more power using a blend of ethanol even without a tune...

Conclusion: Upgrading fuel pumps (even volume capable ones) and lines/filters will prolong the life of fuel system components and reduce the amount of metal and water content in your oil over time...

[ZM2]

So, your argument against ethanol is posting about methanol, and then quoting a study from 1997?

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by ZM2

So, your argument against ethanol is posting about methanol, and then quoting a study from 1997?

Huh?

This was a post I wrote in 2016, I just added a video I happened to come across earlier and posted it, along with some studies I had linked from over the years.

Again, I wrote this upon the release of the OG M2mid 2016, advising people of the stock fuel limitations of the OEM Fuel system, in which no aftermarket solutions were yet available (look at the original post date)...From experience, as I used too much ethanol in my M2 (one of the first I know of to be tuned (before BM3 or MHD were avail for the f87 N55 M2)

Umm, And no, my argument against (TOO MUCH) Ethanol, in certain cars (THAT AREN'T MADE FOR IT), is based on my knowledge of chemistry, I back that up with a video experiment I came across today...And multiple studies, including 1 that actually also finds methanol to be worse for engine internals...You obviously didn't click the link...AT no point do I "Quote from a study"...?

Not sure why I have to go out of my way to explain this these are all things said previously but, I guess you are in the mood to start a fight with a stranger over something as established scientifically as the concept of ethanol's corrosive nature toward certain metals that commonly are used to make OEM fuel pumps, or you read partial parts posts and decided to be combative for whatever reason...

I'm simply advising people who run high amounts of ethanol regularly to the potential negative side effects of doing this over time, constantly...

If you disagree with this please provide scientific or even anecdotal evidence that my conclusions are untrue. Thanks.

[ZM2]

Trust me, I understand the science.

Your post would be more helpful if you summarized a bulleted list of recommendations for those that run E85 in their cars, e.g., stay below 40%?, install different fuel lines?, run top cylinder lube?

Anyone running an E mix for power is already upgrading their HPFP, so no concerns about longevity for the pump.

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Trust me, I understand the science.

Your post would be more helpful if you summarized a bulleted list of recommendations for those that run E85 in their cars, e.g., stay below 40%?, install different fuel lines?, run top cylinder lube?

Anyone running an E mix for power is already upgrading their HPFP, so no concerns about longevity for the pump.

Firstly, I believe I'm pretty clear that 20-30% is OK on OEM M2 Fuel system.

Also, between the forum and Facebook groups, I read a post of someone asking if they can run e85 on their OG M2 on a weekly basis, so no, not everyone knows this...

And very few people know that ethanol is corrosive to fuel systems even capable of pushing the required volume.

My post was more directed toward the one, jerkoff who came on the thread and posted I was making false claims, and then using his E46 with a fully custom fuel system as evidence...(Who didn't own an M2), and then goes on to call me names and accuse me of plagiarizing...

I've been off this forum for a while, I forgot it kicked it up to the top, figured he'd get a notification.

But thanks for the advice.

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Trust me, I understand the science.

Your post would be more helpful if you summarized a bulleted list of recommendations for those that run E85 in their cars, e.g., stay below 40%?, install different fuel lines?, run top cylinder lube?

Anyone running an E mix for power is already upgrading their HPFP, so no concerns about longevity for the pump.

And also, I just got an X4M, the S58 fuel system can easily support e60 and possibly even full E85, volume wise. So no, not everyone running high ethanol blends uses aftermarket HPFP's, especially on other platforms...

But now this post is just digressing to another unproductive back and forth...So I'll likely just delete it...

[Anthony1s]

I'm more interested in you expanding your claim that methanol is corrosive enough to damage our cars. Methanol is in it's own closed system, until introduced to the engine. I don't believe there is enough time it's in the system for it to cause damage if doing port injection. And if it's charge pipe injection, not sure if it'll damage the charge pipe. But other than that, it's not exposed to the system like how ethanal is put in the fuel tank and exposed to all the fuel system lines and pumps and injectors, etc.

There is also this study (march 2020) that says meth is safe. Though I haven't read through it, and don't have the experience to understand it all in a relatively short amount of time.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/202...200317-mi.html

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

I'm more interested in you expanding your claim that methanol is corrosive enough to damage our cars. Methanol is in it's own closed system, until introduced to the engine. I don't believe there is enough time it's in the system for it to cause damage if doing port injection. And if it's charge pipe injection, not sure if it'll damage the charge pipe. But other than that, it's not exposed to the system like how ethanal is put in the fuel tank and exposed to all the fuel system lines and pumps and injectors, etc.

There is also this study (march 2020) that says meth is safe. Though I haven't read through it, and don't have the experience to understand it all in a relatively short amount of time.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/202...200317-mi.html

Far from my claim...I ran tons of WMI on my M2...And there are definite benefits to spraying exogeneous meth on a direct injection car to keep your intake valves clean.

However, I came across this video, which is based on an ASE study from a long time ago...The findings are that certain internal components like cam lobes, top 2 pistons rings (although not the oil expander for some reason) and valve guides wore 15x's more than Gas or ethanol in just 20 hrs...This is with an engine I presume tuned to run on 100% methanol...

the study he's reffering to is here...
https://www.sae.org/publications/tec...ontent/811199/

It finds the exhaust or by products of combusting methanol with oxygen results in hyper corrosive compounds, which just tiny amounts of blow by into the valve guides and down around the pistons, were enough to destroy these things in a tiny amount of time...

That being said, running water/meth 50/50 or even 100% meth as supplementary fuel to lower intake temps and increase octane, I highly doubt is anything worth worrying about...My opinion is the positive probably outweighs the negative...

Still very interesting to me...

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

https://www.greencarcongress.com/202...200317-mi.html

And just to point out, these results were reported by the "Methanol Institute" which happens to be a LNG sponsored lobby group of the multi-billion dollar LNG/ Fracking Industry, I would take anything they say with a grain of salt....

The same way you wouldn't listen to the "Malboro Institute" if they told you smoking was good for you...I would be wary of anything reported by this special interest group...

But even they claim that it is to be used 40-50% mixed with traditional gasoline...

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by DKX4///M

And just to point out, these results were reported by the "Methanol Institute" which happens to be a LNG sponsored lobby group of the multi-billion dollar LNG/ Fracking Industry, I would take anything they say with a grain of salt....

The same way you wouldn't listen to the "Malboro Institute" if they told you smoking was good for you...I would be wary of anything reported by this special interest group...

But even they claim that it is to be used 40-50% mixed with traditional gasoline...

I'm 100% aware of the website. Whoever reports a research study doesn't discredit the study. Who sponsored something is not a counter argument to scientific research and claims. I feel the world going to shit every time someone takes the stance you just made.

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

I'm 100% aware of the website. Whoever reports a research study doesn't discredit the study. Who sponsored something is not a counter argument to scientific research and claims. I feel the world going to shit every time someone takes the stance you just made.

Of course it does...LOL

You get what you pay for...

Speaking of methanol, NutraSweet (aspartame), the artificial sweetener banned by almost every other western country but the US, has been proven over and over again to beyond a doubt neurotoxic and cause brain tumors, dizziness, headaches, cancer (and more) and actually metabolizes into a chemical very similar to that of methanol...

However, when the first Company to patent NutraSweet (a Monsanto subsidiary) GD Searle was repeatedly denied FDA approval, they brought on none other that Donald Rumsfeld, who had been an obvious DC power player through the Nixon Administration and was obviously going to play a role in the Reagan Administration...Then as part of the Reagan transition team, he appointed an inexperienced Dr to head the FDA, then wrote an Executive Order which Reagan signed taking away the FDAs ability to ban Nutrasweet...

Nutrasweet was then marketed as a safe food additive, and now 30 years later is responsible for the single most complaints to the FDA by scientists who study it, more than any other legal food additive...

At the time, NutraSweet had paid "independent scientists" to study it, and they all happened to find it safer than safe! Some even said it was good for you...SMH




From Methanol Institutes Website:

As the global trade association for the methanol industry representing the world’s leading methanol producers, distributors and technology companies, the mission of the Methanol Institute (MI) is to serve and provide cost-effective value to its membership by:

Goes on to list about 50 LNG and Methanol Companies proudly exclaiming to make over 55 Billion a year in profits.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by DKX4///M

Of course it does...LOL

You get what you pay for...

Speaking of methanol, NutraSweet (aspartame), the artificial sweetener banned by almost every other western country but the US, has been proven over and over again to beyond a doubt neurotoxic and cause brain tumors, dizziness, headaches, cancer (and more) and actually metabolizes into a chemical very similar to that of methanol...

However, when the first Company to patent NutraSweet (a Monsanto subsidiary) GD Searle was repeatedly denied FDA approval, they brought on none other that Donald Rumsfeld, who had been an obvious DC power player through the Nixon Administration and was obviously going to play a role in the Reagan Administration...Then as part of the Reagan transition team, he appointed an inexperienced Dr to head the FDA, then wrote an Executive Order which Reagan signed taking away the FDAs ability to ban Nutrasweet...

Nutrasweet was then marketed as a safe food additive, and now 30 years later is responsible for the single most complaints to the FDA by scientists who study it, more than any other legal food additive...

At the time, NutraSweet had paid "independent scientists" to study it, and they all happened to find it safer than safe! Some even said it was good for you...SMH




From Methanol Institutes Website:

As the global trade association for the methanol industry representing the world’s leading methanol producers, distributors and technology companies, the mission of the Methanol Institute (MI) is to serve and provide cost-effective value to its membership by:

Goes on to list about 50 LNG and Methanol Companies proudly exclaiming to make over 55 Billion a year in profits.

I think you need to take a few courses in the scientific method... Your credibility has just went down the drain for me.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

I think you need to take a few courses in the scientific method... Your credibility has just went down the drain for me.

Y'all need some peer review in your papers:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...0communication.