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      12-19-2016, 10:12 PM   #1
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Is the M2 raw?

Hoping to avoid any snarky remarks. Yes I have searched and nothing directly answers this to my satisfaction. I'd like to hear from actual owners please. I own and intend to keep a 2013 E92 M3 and really love the visceral feeling it gives and love analog cars and their authenticity. Currently I daily drive a 2006 E90 325i owned since new and despite its lack of power I enjoy the sport suspension, smooth engine, great brakes and superb steering. I like the fact that there are no settings or adjustments, you simply get in and drive no fussing. It's set up right and that's it. We all know the direction BMW has moved in and my 2013 X3 is a shining example with respect to electric steering, weird throttle, turbo etc.

I have an M2 on order arriving in February to replace the 325i and am very concerned about the "feel" of the car. Of course I have read all the rave reviews about the "return of M" etc. but can't help thinking this is just a reaction to how poorly executed the F80/82 was. I'm concerned that between the electric steering, artificial (adjustable) throttle feel, piped in sound, turbo engine, and lacklustre shifter and clutch that this car will let me down. I realize asking people who own the car won't garner the most unbiased remarks however any honest feedback is appreciated.

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      12-19-2016, 10:29 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
Hoping to avoid any snarky remarks. Yes I have searched and nothing directly answers this to my satisfaction. I'd like to hear from actual owners please. I own and intend to keep a 2013 E92 M3 and really love the visceral feeling it gives and love analog cars and their authenticity. Currently I daily drive a 2006 E90 325i owned since new and despite its lack of power I enjoy the sport suspension, smooth engine, great brakes and superb steering. I like the fact that there are no settings or adjustments, you simply get in and drive no fussing. It's set up right and that's it. We all know the direction BMW has moved in and my 2013 X3 is a shining example with respect to electric steering, weird throttle, turbo etc.

I have an M2 on order arriving in February to replace the 325i and am very concerned about the "feel" of the car. Of course I have read all the rave reviews about the "return of M" etc. but can't help thinking this is just a reaction to how poorly executed the F80/82 was. I'm concerned that between the electric steering, artificial (adjustable) throttle feel, piped in sound, turbo engine, and lacklustre shifter and clutch that this car will let me down. I realize asking people who own the car won't garner the most unbiased remarks however any honest feedback is appreciated.

Thanks
No snarky comments here. I am similar to you. I own a 2003 330i ZHP with Alcantara Cloth interior 6MT. I love the focused environment, no settings no Idrive, great steering feel and dynamics. I also own a 2011 1M Coupe with no options except bluetooth and heated seats which where standard in Canada. Mine is Canadian. I was also on the M2 list but as the M235i and F80 M3 came out, I began to lose hope. The mandatory electric seats, idrive and fake sound were big bummers for me. I still hoped that the M2 would get the lighter option because all the press cars came with manual seats. But sure enough only power seats. Everyone has opinions but there is nothing raw about power seats, power folding mirrors, fake cabin sound, automatic option, idrive, nav screen, comfort mode button. Zippo rawness to that.

So I bailed on my #1 spot and found a used 1M in Toronto with no nav. It is more raw except for one thing, the M2 does sound better on the outside. Inside there is no comfort button, no idrive, no fake sound, no power seats, no power folding mirrors and no comfort button. It is as raw as you can get a BMW these days in my opinion.

So my answer is that M2 is not raw but you will have to decide. So far Chris Harris, Every Day Driver and Carfection all love the M2 and and the 1M has edged the M2 in their estimation because it is slightly "naughty"

So I know you said M2 owners, and I was very, very close. I had given up finding a good deal on a used 1M before I pulled the plug.

It is still a great car, the best BMW you can buy new today, but raw it is not in my humble opinion. Even the 1M seems fluffy compared to a Cobra or Dodge Hellcat. Best wishes.
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      12-19-2016, 10:53 PM   #3
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Not raw but it is tactile and enjoyable. To me there are few turbo cars I would consider raw compared to NA but they can be easier to have fun in compared to a car like the E92 M3 that you have to run above 5k rpms for power. The mechanical nature of the S65 and other NA engines like it will never be similar in a FI application.
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      12-19-2016, 11:02 PM   #4
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I've ordered an M2 after a track drive and a 20 minute road drive in a fully-loaded DCT. As a background, I drive an M135i manual, a Renaultsport Clio which is modified for track/autocross and we have an E91 320d. I've driven E92 M3s on several occasions on road and track and had an E90 325i sport auto previously.

On the continuum of raw, I thought the M2 was pretty much as I expected. It's clearly several levels more connected in chassis feel than my M135i, let alone the current crop of non-M BMWs. There's that bit more bump-thump too - like driving an E90 M3 vs a normal 3er. It's a turbo, but I found the throttle response to be satisfyingly crisp. Stepping out of my Renault, or from something like the 981 Cayman or Exige S, it is of course that little bit softer. Engine sounded great to me - any artificiality was not an issue. Steering is probably the main downside - because it has unique geometry, it grips more firmly so gives more of a sense of biting into the road than non-M cars, but it doesn't telegraph surface subtleties and camber changes like Cayman/Exige or for that matter the hydraulic steering of the earlier E-series BMWs.

So for a 2016 mass-market-based road car, I think it's about as raw as you are going to get and in all honesty is as raw as I'd probably want it to be day in and day out. On track it feels sharp and responsive enough but of course doesn't do that Lotus thing to your loins and grin.
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      12-19-2016, 11:24 PM   #5
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If you have ever driven an e46 m3, this is exactly how it feels minus the high revving motor. It is a blast to drive. I have driven many cars and this car is hands down one of the best drivers car I've ever driven. You will NOT be disappointed.
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      12-20-2016, 12:16 AM   #6
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Probably the last "raw" M car was the E86 M Coupe. Naturally-aspirated S54, no iDrive, starts with a real key.

But I'm still pleased to have traded up from my M Coupe to the M2, and the M2 is still buckets of fun.
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      12-20-2016, 12:17 AM   #7
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I've had one for seven months. It's rawer than most cars these days, and has an edge it, but it isn't an all-out, hardcore, sports car. However it is peppy and does drive on rails. The suspension is firm and it is loud, but it's set up for daily driving duty. It's an aggressive daily driver or soft track car. IMHO that's the beauty of it: it's a great compromise. It's really fun to drive. So is it raw? no probably not. But I'd rather have it than modern raw car (e.g. the alfa romeo 4c... ) and I don't want a 10/15 year old car just to capture that purist ideology (hydraulic steering, no rev matching, no backup camera). seems time moves on and this is realistically as raw as 85% are willing to go.
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      12-20-2016, 12:28 AM   #8
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I'd def say it's not overcooked.
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      12-20-2016, 03:43 AM   #9
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In a word, No.

I too was worried (and still am) about how a car makes you feel. It's less about top trumps and more of an emotional responce for me. The M2 is quick, capable and confident but for me is missing that 'je ne sais quio'
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      12-20-2016, 03:54 AM   #10
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There's nothing lackluster about the shifter and clutch.
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      12-20-2016, 04:12 AM   #11
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Not raw. For the most part it's actually quite refined. That said, given the opportunity to floor the accelerator or take a sharp turn at high speed, it will certainly generate a visceral response. It's like a little German Shepard that is docile until you try to take away its dinner. Then it will growl and try to snap your hand off.
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      12-20-2016, 04:29 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
Hoping to avoid any snarky remarks. Yes I have searched and nothing directly answers this to my satisfaction. I'd like to hear from actual owners please. I own and intend to keep a 2013 E92 M3 and really love the visceral feeling it gives and love analog cars and their authenticity. Currently I daily drive a 2006 E90 325i owned since new and despite its lack of power I enjoy the sport suspension, smooth engine, great brakes and superb steering. I like the fact that there are no settings or adjustments, you simply get in and drive no fussing. It's set up right and that's it. We all know the direction BMW has moved in and my 2013 X3 is a shining example with respect to electric steering, weird throttle, turbo etc.


Thanks
My girlfriend has a 228 and I hear you about the throttle and electric steering. It feels so different to my M2 that I hate driving her car. The steering feel is just so weird.

My M2 is not like this at all and feels a lot more raw and connected. Almost like my E46 M3, but you can feel it has electric steering. I'd say the M engineers made sure to make it feel as raw as possible as that is what an M car is about in my opinion.
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      12-20-2016, 06:18 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attuale View Post
My girlfriend has a 228 and I hear you about the throttle and electric steering. It feels so different to my M2 that I hate driving her car. The steering feel is just so weird.

My M2 is not like this at all and feels a lot more raw and connected. Almost like my E46 M3, but you can feel it has electric steering. I'd say the M engineers made sure to make it feel as raw as possible as that is what an M car is about in my opinion.
I am so glad I never experienced the god-like hydraulic steering in a performance car that so many talk about. That said, the M2 steering is crisp, direct, perfectly balanced/weighted with no dead spot off center.

Thus far, my biggest gripe is losing sport throttle mapping when DCT is off.
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      12-20-2016, 09:22 AM   #14
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Coming from an e92 335 6MT coupe with one of the last hydraulic steering racks, M2's electric rack took some getting used to. It is very precise and well weighted but it gives no feedback of road surface underneath. It's an odd feeling at first if you are used to hydraulic racks. Your brain may be confused initially. You can get some of this feedback through the seat though. Once my brain learned how to compensate or find this feedback elsewhere, I grew more confident with what the chassis was doing. I still miss a hydraulic rack, but M2's steering is very effective once you get used to it. The rest of the car is a perfect aggressive DD with a raw edge to it but not really all out raw. Handles great and sounds great. One thing I don't miss at all is a heavy clutch from 335. I may be in a minority, but to me the relatively light clutch of the M2 is perfect. The shifter is great as well. YMMV of course.
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      12-20-2016, 09:38 AM   #15
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^yes, the light clutch makes stop and go traffic a breeze.
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      12-20-2016, 09:44 AM   #16
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I would not call my M2 "raw". But I would say it gives me a much more connected feel than my 135i - even with the move from hydraulic to electric steering (to me, the LSD more than makes up for that). For me it pretty much hits the mark.. for others, it may be too "sophisticated". The suspension and brakes are great, the engine is pretty damn good and smooth for a turbo. The looks and sound are awesome.

I keep hearing people complain about the ASD. I don't notice it, and really can't hear it even when I concentrate. I love opening the windows before I hit the start button
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      12-20-2016, 09:47 AM   #17
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I came from a '13 BRZ and a '96 E36 M3. Both considered very raw cars. M2 is a big step up in luxury and is certainly less "raw", but as a DD I love the goldilocks zone the M2 satisfies.

Artificial throttle settings are easy - set it to Sport+ every time and you're set. Linear and very reactive. Clutch is light but not a problem for me - preferable for DD. BMS clutch stop also improved the throw.

The M2 turn-in response is very close to my BRZ which I loved - quick and accurate.

The power + nimble feel + exhaust note are what make this car a fantastic sensory experience (for me). I've never smiled and giggled so much with any other car I've owned.
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      12-20-2016, 10:23 AM   #18
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Really tough question - so subjective. For example I read a lot of people tell me how stiff and unbearable the suspension is on bad roads in the M2 and to get the m240 etc. well to me the M2 is not overly stiff, and it strikes a great balance of being a track ready street car. Are there moments where you are bouncing up and down on the road because of it.. yes.. but it's totally liveable and finely tuned.

So to answer your question now that I've tried to qualify my answer a bit above I would say short answer is Yes the M2 is raw. I think thats a great description especially since I'm coming for a 2012 Audi S4. That car is not raw in any stretch and it can still move. Its a 50/50 blend of luxury/feel and performance. The M2 is 75/25 Performance to luxury. this is not a roll around town cruiser the way the Audi can be. This wants to be driven. the steering is as good as it gets for electric, the big deal people make about active sound is laughable. You don't notice it or you will and not care and if you are ocd then just get the cable and be done with it. simple. throttle response and feel and sound are great on a stock car. they are designed one way as that's the only way they can come 'out of the box'. I am having a blast with it in the winter so I can't even imagine how fun this will be when I have traction again.
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      12-20-2016, 10:24 AM   #19
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Coming from a Lotus, the M2 is anything but "raw".
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      12-20-2016, 11:06 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Si View Post
Coming from a Lotus, the M2 is anything but "raw".
Snap.... Exige s2 with stage 3 exhaust, now that is raw.
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      12-20-2016, 12:26 PM   #21
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See, it's all relative. To me, your E92 M3 is not at all "raw" when compared to my old E86 Z4 M Coupe. You don't even need to use a key to turn it on!

Is the M2 as raw as the Z4MC? No. Is the M2 raw enough to make passengers uncomfortable and still be a better daily driver? Absolutely.
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      12-20-2016, 12:32 PM   #22
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Having driven a manuel brz, the M2 is not raw at all. It has less feel and the manuel gearbox is inferior to brz. It's rubbery. You sit higher in M2 and the steering is more dull.
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