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BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 Discussions > When lightning strikes, thunder will follow: impact of the M2 on the M235i and M3/M4

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      10-16-2014, 07:25 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
The ironic thing is that the M3/4 is far from soft IMHO. While yes, it might be bigger than I want for a "weekend" car, but too small to be a pure DD (I have 2 big dogs), it's far from soft. The way the car ride, the grip, the brakes. It's all an improvement.

Personally, I don't care that they'll reduce the power compared to an M3/4. Just make it fun, period. I hope that they'll make it 100 lbs lighter than the M235i (I could live with that). At the end of the day, everyone saying that it needs xxx hp might not get the point of this car.

Look at the E36 M3 (US Spec). It makes 240 hp. But it's such a fun car to drive. I'll take the 370hp, and 3400 lbs, as long as it has a hell of a personality. Big girls need lovin too
LOL!
I agree to a point. You know for yourself how light and nimble the e36 feels. Now imagine that weight (under 3200lbs) with today's suspension technology and 370hp.
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      10-16-2014, 07:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by smakdown61 View Post
I'm just going off some of these hints from recent M Division interviews. If they offer the same options as you get on the M3/M4, why would people go for an M3/M4 when they can get a fully optioned M2 for probably mid $60kish (assuming it starts in the low 50s)? Especially if its barely any slower, but lighter and handles just as good?

Something has to be left to the upper M cars. Whether that's DCT, adaptive suspension, carbon fiber, etc... is anyone's guess right now.
Personally, I think there is PLENTY left for the M4.
1) There's a chance the M2 doesn't get CF parts. That red prototype had sunroof delete but it was still metal roof. I hope to be proven wrong
2) The M4 has an S55, the M2 will have an N55. That should be all the gap the M4 needs right there considering how quick the M4s are. I personally don't think the M2 will be "barely any slower" than an M3/4, but that's just my guess
3) I think they are for different buyers. The size difference between an 2 vs 4er is sizeable. Some people might want a bigger car, some people don't care for the space/speed and just want the agility (me being one of them).
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      10-16-2014, 08:14 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
LOL!
I agree to a point. You know for yourself how light and nimble the e36 feels. Now imagine that weight (under 3200lbs) with today's suspension technology and 370hp.
Oh no doubt. I would seriously rather have a 4 pot M2 that weighs 3200 lbs, than a 6 cyl M2 that weighs 3400 lbs.

I will admit, the one time I did drive the M235i, it didn't feel that ridiculously heavy to me. Sure, it was no E36, but IMHO, it wasn't that far off an E46 M3. Granted, I didn't get to drive it on the track or anything.

This is the way I see it. If they weren't coming out with an M2, I would have been fine with an M235i with all its 3500 lbs with it. I think it's a pretty fun car and it looks great. Now imagine adding all the suspension that makes the M3/4 so great, along wiht the brakes, and a bit more power (not that I think it desperately needed it). I was sold

I also haven't ruled out the possibility of building the car you speak off if somehow the M2 isn't what I expected. The E36 weighs 3100 lbs, and it can easily be turboed to 400 hp
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      10-16-2014, 11:53 AM   #26
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as a performance car....the M2 will be great-----but it is going to be an "M4 Jr" rather than a "1M the II", IMO.
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      10-16-2014, 12:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
as a performance car....the M2 will be great-----but it is going to be an "M4 Jr" rather than a "1M the II", IMO.
That would be supremely disappointing.
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      10-16-2014, 04:31 PM   #28
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      10-16-2014, 04:40 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
I highly doubt you're going to see a curb weight remotely close to the 1M. The standard M235i weighs a whopping 3500lbs here in the states. There is no way they're going to be able to knock off 200lbs with CFRP roof and light weight suspension.
Look at my sig. I've cut 180lbs off my 330 using CF roof, hood and trunk, lighter wheels, exhaust, suspension pieces, brakes and seats. BMW has to stick with OEM quality parts and materials, so I believe the maximum weight reduction will be around 100lbs max. The majority of that weight reduction will not come from the roof either. I changed out my steel roof including the sunroof for a CF piece and it only saved 45lbs. My 330 roof is a bit larger than a 2-series roof, so the weight savings will be less.
I also highly doubt BMW will put on extremely light weight wheels. This is a huge performance part and a major weight savings. I cut 44lbs. just by going to my Advan RS wheels (they are 18", but 0.5" wider in the front ad 1" wider in the rear, but still much lighter than stock).

I'm very interested in this car. I feel the M3/4 has gotten too soft to appease the masses and the M2 will bring back the driving passion. I just hope that they go as hard core as the enthusiasts would like them too. BMW is already pulling the Porsche card by reducing the HP to "protect" it's big brother.


CF roof, hood, trunk, front quarters & CF drive shaft.

They can also use more exotic & lighter steel in critical areas, than in the 235i. Not-to-mention special seats, wheels, exhaust and suspension components, etc.


If you can cut out 180lbs, you don't think BMW can do more..? LOL
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      10-16-2014, 04:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post


CF roof, hood, trunk, front quarters & CF drive shaft.

They can also use more exotic & lighter steel in critical areas, than in the 235i. Not-to-mention special seats, wheels, exhaust and suspension components, etc.


If you can cut out 180lbs, you don't think BMW can do more..? LOL
I'm not saying they can't, I'm saying they won't. The only pieces that'll be CF will be the roof. The hood and trunk I'm sure will be either steel or aluminum.

I thinking they'll reduce weight by 100lbs, but no more than that.
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      10-16-2014, 04:55 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI
as a performance car....the M2 will be great-----but it is going to be an "M4 Jr" rather than a "1M the II", IMO.
You're probably right. I think that's s a great thing, btw.
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      10-16-2014, 04:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
I'm not saying they can't, I'm saying they won't. The only pieces that'll be CF will be the roof. The hood and trunk I'm sure will be either steel or aluminum.

I thinking they'll reduce weight by 100lbs, but no more than that.
Why do you think that...?
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      10-16-2014, 04:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
I highly doubt you're going to see a curb weight remotely close to the 1M. The standard M235i weighs a whopping 3500lbs here in the states. There is no way they're going to be able to knock off 200lbs with CFRP roof and light weight suspension.
Look at my sig. I've cut 180lbs off my 330 using CF roof, hood and trunk, lighter wheels, exhaust, suspension pieces, brakes and seats. BMW has to stick with OEM quality parts and materials, so I believe the maximum weight reduction will be around 100lbs max. The majority of that weight reduction will not come from the roof either. I changed out my steel roof including the sunroof for a CF piece and it only saved 45lbs. My 330 roof is a bit larger than a 2-series roof, so the weight savings will be less.
I also highly doubt BMW will put on extremely light weight wheels. This is a huge performance part and a major weight savings. I cut 44lbs. just by going to my Advan RS wheels (they are 18", but 0.5" wider in the front ad 1" wider in the rear, but still much lighter than stock).

I'm very interested in this car. I feel the M3/4 has gotten too soft to appease the masses and the M2 will bring back the driving passion. I just hope that they go as hard core as the enthusiasts would like them too. BMW is already pulling the Porsche card by reducing the HP to "protect" it's big brother.


CF roof, hood, trunk, front quarters & CF drive shaft.

They can also use more exotic & lighter steel in critical areas, than in the 235i. Not-to-mention special seats, wheels, exhaust and suspension components, etc.


If you can cut out 180lbs, you don't think BMW can do more..? LOL
Riiiigghhht and still keep the MSRP below $60,000
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      10-16-2014, 05:04 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
Riiiigghhht and still keep the MSRP below $60,000
Why? The materials for CF itself, are CHEAP..

How long have BMW been making CF roofs & shafts..? They already have the manufacturing process down.

CF isn't exotic anymore...
My sunglasses, money clip, cell phone case, hockey stick, envelope opener, etc, are all carbon fiber.
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      10-16-2014, 05:40 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn
Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
Riiiigghhht and still keep the MSRP below $60,000
Why? The materials for CF itself, are CHEAP..

How long have BMW been making CF roofs & shafts..? They already have the manufacturing process down.

CF isn't exotic anymore...
My sunglasses, money clip, cell phone case, hockey stick, envelope opener, etc, are all carbon fiber.
Cheap carbon fiber is cheap. Building a performance car with carbon is a different game against Oakley's. Additionally BMW's don't sell in the same volume as hockey sticks and money clips.

It's just not as feasible as you wish it be.
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      10-19-2014, 09:02 AM   #36
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      10-21-2014, 01:31 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
Cheap carbon fiber is cheap. Building a performance car with carbon is a different game against Oakley's. Additionally BMW's don't sell in the same volume as hockey sticks and money clips.

It's just not as feasible as you wish it be.
I do agree that structural CF is more difficult to manufacture than sunglasses and money clips. However, one could argue that BMW has already had extensive practice with building CF roofs on the M3 and M4 (did other M models come with a CF roof option?). So adapting their process to fit the M2 shouldn't really be a big deal, most of the R&D work is done and I doubt it would require changing much to make them for the M2...

If anything there would be some additional costs incurred for crash-testing, etc... But I still think a CF roof is very do-able for the M2.
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      10-23-2014, 07:10 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Oh no doubt. I would seriously rather have a 4 pot M2 that weighs 3200 lbs, than a 6 cyl M2 that weighs 3400 lbs.

I will admit, the one time I did drive the M235i, it didn't feel that ridiculously heavy to me. Sure, it was no E36, but IMHO, it wasn't that far off an E46 M3. Granted, I didn't get to drive it on the track or anything.

This is the way I see it. If they weren't coming out with an M2, I would have been fine with an M235i with all its 3500 lbs with it. I think it's a pretty fun car and it looks great. Now imagine adding all the suspension that makes the M3/4 so great, along wiht the brakes, and a bit more power (not that I think it desperately needed it). I was sold

I also haven't ruled out the possibility of building the car you speak off if somehow the M2 isn't what I expected. The E36 weighs 3100 lbs, and it can easily be turboed to 400 hp
I owned a 98 M3/4/5 for over a decade, and I agree with you that it was extremely fun, yet underpowered (compared to today's standards). However, e36 M3s are typically 32xx-33xx lbs, hardly the advertised 3175lbs. My car, with 1/4 tank of gas, spare tire/jack/tools removed and no driver still weighed 3280lbs. (Spare tire/wheel, jack and tools weighed ~50lbs.) I was disappointed when I saw the readings the first time. It did have the HK/power seats/and sunroof, but so does an M235i. (I was so obsessed with making the e36M3 as light as possible that I later changed the exhaust, swapped lighter wheels/tires, lightweight battery, etc) to shed a few more lbs, while still trying to keep it a DD. The point is that the e36M3 wasn't as light as most may think. I have yet to see an M235i weighed by their owners, but if did weigh 3500lbs give or take, I think 200lbs difference between an e36M3 and an M235i is not much, given all the standard equipment of the M235i plus all the new safety, chassis rigidity/improvement, suspension, etc that it has over the e36. The e36M3 is extremely fun and tossible, but so is the M235i. It certainly doesn't feel like a 3500lb car. If the M2 ends up weighing less than this, that will be amazing, both in driving feel and performance.
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      10-24-2014, 02:07 AM   #39
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Posted this comment recently in another thread but think that it's more appropriate to post it over here in this dedicated thread.

As we know, the 1M is universally respected as motoring marvel by enthusiasts and the competition. No-one could have fathomed that the staunch M version of "just" the entry level BMW would be showered with "instant classic" accolades and capable of rocketing itself at once (2011) into car history books. Do yourself a favor and tackle the 1M whilst talking to dealers of Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, etc. In some way it's actually some sort of trolling, because they might sigh and hush something along the lines: "Gotta admit: we can't fault that one. But please don't quote me on that".

Exit 1M - Enter M2: as game changer / benchmark within its category, the 1M royally paved the way of high expectations for the M2. So be patient. There are horses and horses for courses. The M235i and M235i Racing are entry courses (entrée). The M2 will be the main course. Let the BMW M Division spend time and resources to perfect the M2 prototype, to release a bat out of hell outdoing the 1M. Dropping the 4-banger engine layout idea (less weight though) in favor of a 6-banger, was in the end the right move - the best "fit for purpose" choice for this M car. It allows BMW M to even more showcast being on top of its game and allows the M2 to shine its many colors on the street and on track.

With the M2, BMW M got gold on their hands - and they know it. Sure they do. Many prospective owners sitting on the fence, lusting for a "1M 2.0" package and willing to pay top-dollar for it. Apart from an automotive success (design/concept/performance/technology/etc.), it has all the potential to become a commercial success too. With the right total package and smart pricing ("best bang for the buck" - rather affordable for the target customers), BMW M has another ace upon its sleeve to blow the competition out of the water. It will raise the bar, again. And the competition ? They know it too.
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