[AlpsRider]

This M2C vs M2CS horse will undoubtedly be beaten to death until there is nothing left but some patches of hair, everyone grab a stick 😁.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

This M2C vs M2CS horse will undoubtedly be beaten to death until there is nothing left but some patches of hair, everyone grab a stick 😁.

Kinda like the OG M2 crowd hating on the S55 sound huh? Talk about something that gets old.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Conissah

Exclusivity plays a role in literally everything us, as consumers, buy. The "I have it and you don't" mentality is apparent in almost all purchases today. I don't see why a limited production car SHOULDN'T have a higher price tag than it's non-limited production sibling. It makes perfect sense. Why did VIN no. 001 C8 Vette sell for $3 million the other day...? Because there is never going to be another number 1 for that chassis, exclusivity...

Now I'm not saying it makes $30,000 worth of sense, but there are other factors in that price. Hell, I don't think the car is worth what they're asking for it, but consider the M2C for a second. Now consider adding on nicer leather, different interior finish panels, new suspension, a tune, wheels, tires, carbon aero, carbon roof, etc. What would all that run, probably north of $15k. You get all of that WITH a warranty with the CS, while also getting a 1 of 2200 car.

BMW sales and marketing know more than you and I both, so I'm sure they did their research. Would they really sell a marked up M2C with some aero bits for $25-30k more without doing 0 market research...? Come on now.

Conissah

I think your statement regarding ‘exclusivity’ explains why someone would be willing to pay an exorbitant amount for something rare and/or unique. Exclusivity is hardly a factor in ‘literally everything’ we buy as consumers, or the mentality consumers take toward ‘all purchases today.’

BMW did not have to do any research to conclude there are 2200 sport car enthusiasts in the world willing to buy a M2CS. BMW could sell 2200 bicycles at $30K a pop tomorrow if they wanted. BMW is into selling cars and making money. Period. So, the objective is to sell as many cars as possible and make as much money as possible. Literally the only basis of their existence as a car manufacturer business. BMW is trying to access more consumers . . . NOT fewer.

I do not blame BMW for throwing the S55 into the M2C. In fact, turned out to be an amazingly successful decision born out of necessity. Where they are going wrong is with the release of the M2CS. Price it appropriately - say at $65-70K - and sell as many as possible!

Sport car enthusiast masses are not stupid as whole but, as someone once said, ‘a sucker is born every day.’ BMW researchers have not concluded much more than that with their marketing and pricing of the M2CS.

///AVM

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Hegge

I won't bash it or say it is overpriced simply because I can't afford it.

1. I am not bashing the M2CS as, to do so, would be bashing the M2C which is absolutely exquisite. What I am bashing is the PRICE and notion of exclusivity to justify the price of the M2CS second release.

2. Ability to 'afford' a M2CS has absolutely ZERO bearing in my comments. If I wanted an M2CS I would get the first release for $60K . . . or the second release priced appropriately at $65-70K.

///AVM

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Conissah

I think your statement regarding ‘exclusivity’ explains why someone would be willing to pay an exorbitant amount for something rare and/or unique. Exclusivity is hardly a factor in ‘literally everything’ we buy as consumers, or the mentality consumers take toward ‘all purchases today.’

BMW did not have to do any research to conclude there are 2200 sport car enthusiasts in the world willing to buy a M2CS. BMW could sell 2200 bicycles at $30K a pop tomorrow if they wanted. BMW is into selling cars and making money. Period. So, the objective is to sell as many cars as possible and make as much money as possible. Literally the only basis of their existence as a car manufacturer business. BMW is trying to access more consumers . . . NOT fewer.

I do not blame BMW for throwing the S55 into the M2C. In fact, turned out to be an amazingly successful decision born out of necessity. Where they are going wrong is with the release of the M2CS. Price it appropriately - say at $65-70K - and sell as many as possible!

Sport car enthusiast masses are not stupid as whole but, as someone once said, ‘a sucker is born every day.’ BMW researchers have not concluded much more than that with their marketing and pricing of the M2CS.

///AVM

You could build an M2CS and sell it for 65-70K, but it couldn't/wouldn't have the same parts on it that the new one does. The cost of tooling alone and things like NPV (net present value) and target ROI's require a degree of profit margin that makes special short run parts exceedingly expensive in the manufacturing world. BMW is re-using some parts, but not all. There is still engineering test and refitment etc. We could belabor this all day, but it doesn't take many parts for an engineering development program to cost 10-20 million (I've run a few) and 30,000 in profit PER car only provides 66 Million total to cover the program - if you were willing to go zero on ROI and NPV, which no company would ever do. That'd be if BMW got all the money, they don't. I don't know what it is the automotive world, but other manufacturing arena's, it's somewhere UNDER 1/3. So the margin is not the large in all honesty as BMW would have had less than 20 million for the entire development, testing, marketing, etc for the entire program.

The aftermarket options versus factory option battle has raged since cars were built... but matching the M2CS from an M2C with factory parts puts you within about 8K, do a BMW individual color and you are nearly there, and STILL don't have the same exhaust, tune, or shocks or limited run. Yep, you can build up an M2C with aftermarket carbon bits and suspension and exhaust for less. Go nuts if that's your boat, but arguing that 30K is way out of sight is just not born out in the economics.

And no matter what you argue, you are coming at it from a rational approach and trying to take a value driven mindset. Car buying just isn't rational, not for most people at least. I personally don't really care where they price the car at. It's perfect for me and I'd have paid another 15K and been fine with it. I could have bought a Cayman GT4 but I simply didn't like it and it wasn't good for doing things with my kids. This will be more fun based on how much I liked the M2 in comparison and it was worth GT4 money to me. There just aren't many cars that can REALLY track hard and still do the daycare run with ease... small venn diagram of interested parties there too

Different strokes for different folks... but we all enjoy good compression and ignition strokes around here, so enjoy what we have in common.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I think the M2C is a true rival @ $30k less.

Sure. Just like a 911 GT3 is a rival to a GT3 RS. 45K+ for extra 20 hp, extra aero, and some suspension revisions. Your statement is true, and nothing is wrong with either car. Some people still want the RS though. Or tack on the Weissach package for another 18k...

[GimmeanM]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

You could build an M2CS and sell it for 65-70K, but it couldn't/wouldn't have the same parts on it that the new one does. The cost of tooling alone and things like NPV (net present value) and target ROI's require a degree of profit margin that makes special short run parts exceedingly expensive in the manufacturing world. BMW is re-using some parts, but not all. There is still engineering test and refitment etc. We could belabor this all day, but it doesn't take many parts for an engineering development program to cost 10-20 million (I've run a few) and 30,000 in profit PER car only provides 66 Million total to cover the program - if you were willing to go zero on ROI and NPV, which no company would ever do. That'd be if BMW got all the money, they don't. I don't know what it is the automotive world, but other manufacturing arena's, it's somewhere UNDER 1/3. So the margin is not the large in all honesty as BMW would have had less than 20 million for the entire development, testing, marketing, etc for the entire program.

The aftermarket options versus factory option battle has raged since cars were built... but matching the M2CS from an M2C with factory parts puts you within about 8K, do a BMW individual color and you are nearly there, and STILL don't have the same exhaust, tune, or shocks or limited run. Yep, you can build up an M2C with aftermarket carbon bits and suspension and exhaust for less. Go nuts if that's your boat, but arguing that 30K is way out of sight is just not born out in the economics.

And no matter what you argue, you are coming at it from a rational approach and trying to take a value driven mindset. Car buying just isn't rational, not for most people at least. I personally don't really care where they price the car at. It's perfect for me and I'd have paid another 15K and been fine with it. I could have bought a Cayman GT4 but I simply didn't like it and it wasn't good for doing things with my kids. This will be more fun based on how much I liked the M2 in comparison and it was worth GT4 money to me. There just aren't many cars that can REALLY track hard and still do the daycare run with ease... small venn diagram of interested parties there too

Different strokes for different folks... but we all enjoy good compression and ignition strokes around here, so enjoy what we have in common.

Good info on the manufacturing side, easy to miss that from an outside perspective.
Also, I've seen posts on here talking about how you could just add all of the Performance parts and have an identical car. But it is worthwhile to point out that most of the parts on the M2CS are not the M Performance parts offered for the F87. The splitter, hood, roof, spoiler, front seats, steering wheel, interior carbon and alcantara (dash pieces, door cards) are all bespoke to the CS; never mind the Adaptive Suspension. Not to say that it couldn't be done, but an M2C plus M Performance parts does not equal M2CS. ...And I'd like to see someone build a M2CS from an M2C and not spend more than 30k doing so.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by GimmeanM

...And I'd like to see someone build a M2CS from an M2C and not spend more than 30k doing so.

I think many argue they can build something "equivalent" by using aftermarket parts, ignoring the interior differences, and come out cheaper. There's also the argument that going to higher end suspension (think KW V3 or better) would outperform the adaptives. This is the wonderful, never-ending factory/after-market argument and also about what you want to do with the car day to day etc. I think every viewpoint I've grazed over above is true and valid. Just not the one that mattered for me.

I think your point is if you bought an M2C and tried to replace all the bolt-able parts with factory components to make an M2CS, including interior, shocks, etc, you'd be in for a bit more than 30K by the time that all settled up. I also agree with that being true!

[MR.]

I have been calculating and speccing up a M2 CS for a friend today and I fell of my seat what the damn thing costs... My good lord... With discount we are still talking 90K EUR netto.

With M2C models flying out of the dealer at like low 50's, I am like why oh why would you buy a M2 CS which seems to be not limited and produced as much as they can in Leipzig.

MR

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by MR.

I have been calculating and speccing up a M2 CS for a friend today and I fell of my seat what the damn thing costs... My good lord... With discount we are still talking 90K EUR netto.

With M2C models flying out of the dealer at like low 50's, I am like why oh why would you buy a M2 CS which seems to be not limited and produced as much as they can in Leipzig.

MR

Because I want to

[Hegge]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

1. I am not bashing the M2CS as, to do so, would be bashing the M2C which is absolutely exquisite. What I am bashing is the PRICE and notion of exclusivity to justify the price of the M2CS second release.

2. Ability to 'afford' a M2CS has absolutely ZERO bearing in my comments. If I wanted an M2CS I would get the first release for $60K . . . or the second release priced appropriately at $65-70K.

///AVM

Basically if you want it buy it. If you don't want it, don't buy it. People remember memories not how much money they saved on each deal.

[Hegge]

Originally Posted by MR.

I have been calculating and speccing up a M2 CS for a friend today and I fell of my seat what the damn thing costs... My good lord... With discount we are still talking 90K EUR netto.

With M2C models flying out of the dealer at like low 50's, I am like why oh why would you buy a M2 CS which seems to be not limited and produced as much as they can in Leipzig.

MR

Some reasons are:

1. Tune from the factory. Aftermarket can void warranty.
2. Carbon fiber bits and other lightweight material inside and outside.
3. Adaptive Suspension
4. Limited production. US ordering has not even started yet. Car is supposed to be built in 2020 only.
5. Not everyone can take an M2C and build a M2 CS. Some want a finished car from the factory.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

You could build an M2CS and sell it for 65-70K, but it couldn't/wouldn't have the same parts on it that the new one does. The cost of tooling alone and things like NPV (net present value) and target ROI's require a degree of profit margin that makes special short run parts exceedingly expensive in the manufacturing world. BMW is re-using some parts, but not all. There is still engineering test and refitment etc. We could belabor this all day, but it doesn't take many parts for an engineering development program to cost 10-20 million (I've run a few) and 30,000 in profit PER car only provides 66 Million total to cover the program - if you were willing to go zero on ROI and NPV, which no company would ever do. That'd be if BMW got all the money, they don't. I don't know what it is the automotive world, but other manufacturing arena's, it's somewhere UNDER 1/3. So the margin is not the large in all honesty as BMW would have had less than 20 million for the entire development, testing, marketing, etc for the entire program.

The aftermarket options versus factory option battle has raged since cars were built... but matching the M2CS from an M2C with factory parts puts you within about 8K, do a BMW individual color and you are nearly there, and STILL don't have the same exhaust, tune, or shocks or limited run. Yep, you can build up an M2C with aftermarket carbon bits and suspension and exhaust for less. Go nuts if that's your boat, but arguing that 30K is way out of sight is just not born out in the economics.

And no matter what you argue, you are coming at it from a rational approach and trying to take a value driven mindset. Car buying just isn't rational, not for most people at least. I personally don't really care where they price the car at. It's perfect for me and I'd have paid another 15K and been fine with it. I could have bought a Cayman GT4 but I simply didn't like it and it wasn't good for doing things with my kids. This will be more fun based on how much I liked the M2 in comparison and it was worth GT4 money to me. There just aren't many cars that can REALLY track hard and still do the daycare run with ease... small venn diagram of interested parties there too

Different strokes for different folks... but we all enjoy good compression and ignition strokes around here, so enjoy what we have in common.

SD

I will not argue your statements about the cost of development, in general. However, your statements do represent the heart of the problem with the M2CS release and associated cost.

If your statements held water, then please explain the images below, keeping in mind the M2C received the biggest performance upgrade ever in the M2 model lineup. . . S55 engine. In addition, it got all kinds of other ///M performance and non-performance parts. Yet, only a $4K jump in MRSP over the M2.

Plane and simple, BMW is dropping the ball with the M2CS. The cost should be $65-70K. . . even then, if I wanted an M2 I would go after the M2CS v1.

///AVM

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

SD

I will not argue your statements about the cost of development, in general. However, your statements do represent the heart of the problem with the M2CS release and associated cost.

If your statements held water, then please explain the images below, keeping in mind the M2C received the biggest performance upgrade ever in the M2 model lineup. . . S55 engine. In addition, it got all kinds of other ///M performance and non-performance parts. Yet, only a $4K jump in MRSP over the M2.

Plane and simple, BMW is dropping the ball with the M2CS. The cost should be $65-70K. . . even then, if I wanted an M2 I would go after the M2CS v1.

///AVM

Sure. A few things that are common in a similar industry at least.

1) Emissions requirements mandated the switch. The accounting is very different in that scenario, so the way the budgets are generated when companies have to do a project versus stop-sale on a model has different ROI/NPV. It allows more to be done with less return on the investment, which allows for much lower markups. Pricing continuity for the market also will drive this - "same" model replacement year over year often will not allow for significant jumps. For my industry, we aim for around 3-5%. About inline with what you saw between the M2-M2C as well at a bit over 5%.

2) Volume... 14,000 in 2018 alone for M2/M2C I guess. So run the math again, and have the ability to spread it across multiple years. If you assume 3 years, and a minimum 30,000 cars... well you've got over 90 Million project budget just off a 3K markup.

The S55 is not bespoke. BMW cars are designed for package swaps like that. The 2 series carries many different engines, so an engine swap and approval is, while not trivial, or cheap, a limited capital investment. Cheaper most likely for capital tooling (hardened steel, long lead time, custom design, non reusable, tools specific to a model) than the carbon body parts in fact. I personally can't rattle off the full differences list between the M2 and M2C, but with there being zero suspension differences (long argued over) and minimal exterior changes (bumper covers and mirror caps?) the investments aren't that deep, but I could easily be missing something that your point is spot on for.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by MR.

For your information guys... I am getting offered M2 CS cars left, right and center since the end of last week. I did some digging and I heard that BMW is planning to make more than 2200 pieces of the CS.
Dealers in certain BMW M specific countries have asked the headquarters to produce more, because they think they can sell more. It is unknown what this means for the total amounts and specific countries.
It is peculiar that the dealers whom are offering me the cars are all offering me April/May production slots, which if you are planning to make more is a rather intriguing thing.
Interesting development... If you missed out at your dealer, make sure to run back and see what they say. You might be able to pick one up, with discount even!!! No premiums here in Europe, but decent double digit discounts for the M2 CS.
This is something I did not expect. I was really thinking that they had a hard time getting rid of them, because of the hefty price tag. Time will tell what the real reason is, but it is interesting to see that out of nothing slots and cars are being offered.
Oh and for your information, I won't get one myself. My M2C is getting new brakes next month and some other things done. In a few months time, mine has all the CS parts I fancy, is lighter, handles better and offers better performance.
MR

Originally Posted by MR.

I have been calculating and speccing up a M2 CS for a friend today and I fell of my seat what the damn thing costs... My good lord... With discount we are still talking 90K EUR netto.
With M2C models flying out of the dealer at like low 50's, I am like why oh why would you buy a M2 CS which seems to be not limited and produced as much as they can in Leipzig.
MR

MR., did you get confirmation from two separate sources that BMW canceled the '2200 cars' limit for the M2 CS ?

[AlpsRider]

I guess I'm dumb because I don't get the cow pic 😂

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I guess I'm dumb because I don't get the cow pic 😂

Two's company!

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I guess I'm dumb because I don't get the cow pic 😂

I THINK Art is suggesting 'multiple sources' of confirmation . . . by showing an image of multiple sources of milk.

///AVM

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I guess I'm dumb because I don't get the cow pic 😂

BMW is milking it..

Meaning they're trying to get every penny they can off the M2/CS platform, for all that it's worth..

[medphysdave]

What country is this from?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...r2t9lnS_Wk4Jvd

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

What country is this from?
https://www.bmw.nl/content/dam/bmw/m...03-2020-v1.pdf

M2 CS catalogue for The Netherlands.

Originally Posted by Poochie

BMW is milking it..
Meaning they're trying to get every penny they can off the M2/CS platform, for all that it's worth..

Milking the cash cows.

[medphysdave]

Man, I thought this thing was pricey in the US. Some countries get walluped with taxes and what looks to be more taxes.