[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by ZM2

From the review you linked to:

“A Note on Lag
Measurements elsewhere have shown that the Wagner EVO 2 Comp should flow a bit better than the ATM. Paying attention to lag while accelerating from a stop, and also watching my fuel economy meter seem to confirm that. Accelerating form a stop my fuel economy meter drops to about mid to high 8mpgs with the Wagner. With the ATM it's in the low 8s. The lag is slightly more with the ATM”

No thanks.

It’s not something you can perceive. He’s literally talking about half a mpg.
Wagner is Not a bad product, it’s just not something anyone should buy over better options.

Sorry if you got duped.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

People tend to only compare IAT rise with an intercooler, if thats all that mattered, get the largest core with most fins.

One needs to compare pressure air drop, IAT recovery after each pull and weight (weight is more of a factor on the track). All these would come in favor of tube and fin core like the Wagner.

Lots of really good options available, it just depends on the application and HP goals.

The Wagner was literally inferior in all objective measurements. Look, I get you have a business and sell all products, the best thing to do is just let people know you offer them and let them decide for themselves. There is no objective reason to get something like the Wagner and CSF over the VSFR, ATM, ER.

[Anthony1s]

Seems like you're just here to start trouble.

How is Mike biased to one intercooler when he sells all of them? Don't you think he makes money no matter what gets sold? And in the past comments, he doesn't even recommend the Wagner over the other options.

Al

Edit: nvm, you deleted your other comment...

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

It’s not something you can perceive. He’s literally talking about half a mpg.
Wagner is Not a bad product, it’s just not something anyone should buy over better options.

Sorry if you got duped.

Unperceivable, he only comments on perceiving it... Good logic there. I've seen many other guys with the larger ICs comment on the additional lag, as well.

Maybe you don't perceive it, but it's certainly there and is not a characteristic I want, nor is 10 more lbs right on the nose of the car. If you are focused on suspension setup and track handling, that is very noticeable.

If you're the street racer or Draggy kind of guy, by all means get the bigger IC.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Unperceivable, he only comments on perceiving it... Good logic there. I've seen many other guys with the larger ICs comment on the additional lag, as well.

Maybe you don't perceive it, but it's certainly there and is not a characteristic I want, nor is 10 more lbs right on the nose of the car. If you are focused on suspension setup and track handling, that is very noticeable.

If you're the street racer or Draggy kind of guy, by all means get the bigger IC.

Actually, street racers would prefer a shitty cooler that cools down quickly, and doesn’t soak heat (especially important when you’re staging)

I’m geared more towards track days and consistentcy - which the Wagner and other brands don’t offer. I also have a stick shift (boost drop between gears) and daily drive my car, so there is a lot of things working against ‘grabbing the biggest core’
That being said, it’s clear one cooler is absolutely superior to another with only they SLIGHTEST of compromises, yet offering superior performance.

Why defend an inferior product?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

Seems like you're just here to start trouble.

How is Mike biased to one intercooler when he sells all of them? Don't you think he makes money no matter what gets sold? And in the past comments, he doesn't even recommend the Wagner over the other options.

Al

Edit: nvm, you deleted your other comment...

Because he sells the all, he’s not in the business of saying X is better than Y outright - you don’t want to disparage your customers.

I’m not making money off this, I just want to make choices off objective information, and hope everyone does the same.

I already have an intercooler on the car, I’m looking to upgrade to something better and then tune. Wagner, AA, and all those small car brands aren’t even in the running.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

WideT

M2 stock inlet pipe is same part as fitted to early F2x m135i and F3x 335i with PWG turbo. Inlet ID is ideal for smaller PWG turbo compressor wheel. The later EWG turbo - as fitted to m2 - has larger comp wheel hence oem inlet pipe is restrictive by default.

On my JB4 tuned EWG n55 in my m135i - the Pure hi Flo inlet pipe helped the car to punch harder longer higher up the rev range. Areas under power and torque curves grew by about 20 & 30% respectively. No brainer imho for n55 in my m2.

Hey BP, can you put your inlet dyno in your signature? It’s solid information everyone should see.

Did you ever get any logs with it installed?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by switlikbob

Since my ATM IC would not fit with my Evolution Racewerks charge and TIC pipes, I decided to shell out the extra $$$ for their Type 3 anodized IC that's got a 650hp core. I spoke extensively with Fred, the owner of ER, about this because I needed to be sure that his IC will be good for my Pure Stage 2 & TTFS/XDI setup. I've attached some pictures for your viewing pleasure.

One of them is a pic of the AA IC next to the ATM IC.

Price?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Actually, street racers would prefer a shitty cooler that cools down quickly, and doesn’t soak heat (especially important when you’re staging)

I’m geared more towards track days and consistentcy - which the Wagner and other brands don’t offer. I also have a stick shift (boost drop between gears) and daily drive my car, so there is a lot of things working against ‘grabbing the biggest core’
That being said, it’s clear one cooler is absolutely superior to another with only they SLIGHTEST of compromises, yet offering superior performance.

Why defend an inferior product?

You're still missing the big picture. There are temp, weight, and pressure differences in play here. Each of these have performance impacts on engine, handling, on/off throttle, and how hard the turbo has to work.

In fact, there used to be a different data heavy ATM vs Wagner Evo2 Comp thread floating around that showed similar performance b/n the two and the OP opt'ed for the Evo 2 b/c of the additional lag from the ATM.

What's most impt to me is impact to track times. This data set doesn't exist b/n the two IC's, but based on the limited comparison data out there and the pros/cons b/n the two, there's likely hardly any difference in times, and the difference would be overshadowed by other larger variables. If I can get this and gain subjective improvements in track handling feel and less lag, why wouldn't I?

There's more to this than IATs and no one has the right answer, only the answers that satisfy what that person is looking for in an IC.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by ZM2

You're still missing the big picture. There are temp, weight, and pressure differences in play here. Each of these have performance impacts on engine, handling, on/off throttle, and how hard the turbo has to work.

In fact, there used to be a different data heavy ATM vs Wagner Evo2 Comp thread floating around that showed similar performance b/n the two and the OP opt'ed for the Evo 2 b/c of the additional lag from the ATM.

What's most impt to me is impact to track times. This data set doesn't exist b/n the two IC's, but based on the limited comparison data out there and the pros/cons b/n the two, there's likely hardly any difference in times, and the difference would be overshadowed by other larger variables. If I can get this and gain subjective improvements in track handling feel and less lag, why wouldn't I?

There's more to this than IATs and no one has the right answer, only the answers that satisfy what that person is looking for in an IC.

No, I’m absolutely in grasp of what is going on here - I know of the thread on the Comparison test, and my understanding (from what I heard) was the test was carried out by Wagner, so there were some questions on how unbiased the results are.

But let’s just be real here - there are plenty of things you can do to help with the throttle response and lag, nameley a turbo inlet. Most of us aren’t racecar drivers, and the small differences in ‘turbo lag’ and weight aren’t going to be perceptible to most of us, however I think we all can appreciate a products that allows our cars to operate at their maximum level longer - and be more consistent.

[PLF69]

Anyone knows if the Do88 intercooler is bar and plate or tube and fin ? And the weight ?

They seem to make nice parts for the M2, if you had up everything its not too expensive to make your M2 track reliable and capable of sustaining long session in heat.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

No, I’m absolutely in grasp of what is going on here - I know of the thread on the Comparison test, and my understanding (from what I heard) was the test was carried out by Wagner, so there were some questions on how unbiased the results are.

But let’s just be real here - there are plenty of things you can do to help with the throttle response and lag, nameley a turbo inlet. Most of us aren’t racecar drivers, and the small differences in ‘turbo lag’ and weight aren’t going to be perceptible to most of us, however I think we all can appreciate a products that allows our cars to operate at their maximum level longer - and be more consistent.

I already have an inlet, I’ve done 40+ track days in my car, and do endurance races in other BMWs with BMW PC instructors and pros that run in World Challenge, so we can see which side I fall on regarding perceiving things.

Another example, I’m running the Dinan turbo bc there’s no lag. Are there bigger turbos that give more power. Sure, but then I have to deal with lag and the additional power from the other turbos isn’t going to impact road track times that much bc fueling, cooling, and traction become more important variables.

Bottom line, there are different answers to this question, and it’s the reason Mike started the thread in the first place.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Anyone knows if the Do88 intercooler is bar and plate or tube and fin ? And the weight ?

They seem to make nice parts for the M2, if you had up everything its not too expensive to make your M2 track reliable and capable of sustaining long session in heat.

Looks like bar & plate. I’ve heard 25lbs.

Can’t say much about real world performance, but I’m installing their larger remote radiator soon, so I’ll comment on its fit/finish then.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I already have an inlet, I’ve done 40+ track days in my car, and do endurance races in other BMWs with BMW PC instructors and pros that run in World Challenge, so we can see which side I fall on regarding perceiving things.

Another example, I’m running the Dinan turbo bc there’s no lag. Are there bigger turbos that give more power. Sure, but then I have to deal with lag and the additional power from the other turbos isn’t going to impact road track times that much bc fueling, cooling, and traction become more important variables.

Bottom line, there are different answers to this question, and it’s the reason Mike started the thread in the first place.

So you agree that the Wagner isn’t up to par. I’m glad we agree.

And if you have the Pure Inlet, would you mind posting logs?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

So you agree that the Wagner isn’t up to par. I’m glad we agree.

And if you have the Pure Inlet, would you mind posting logs?

It’s amazing you get any assistance/feedback from anyone here with such inferences.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by ZM2

It’s amazing you get any assistance/feedback from anyone here with such inferences.

I’ll take that as a ‘maybe’

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Actually, street racers would prefer a shitty cooler that cools down quickly, and doesn’t soak heat (especially important when you’re staging)

I’m geared more towards track days and consistentcy - which the Wagner and other brands don’t offer. I also have a stick shift (boost drop between gears) and daily drive my car, so there is a lot of things working against ‘grabbing the biggest core’
That being said, it’s clear one cooler is absolutely superior to another with only they SLIGHTEST of compromises, yet offering superior performance.

Why defend an inferior product?

The ATM test you linked shows that it has more heat soak than the Wagner though, which is due to it's bar and plate design...

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

The ATM test you linked shows that it has more heat soak than the Wagner though, which is due to it's bar and plate design...

That’s my point. It’s not a good option for people who would be staging and drag racing - however, that also depends on how many passes and runs they do.

I will never buy a Wagner, and nothing personal to the brand. But the hype it gets on these forums for underachieving, and it’s cost - I’ll never understand

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

That’s my point. It’s not a good option for people who would be staging and drag racing - however, that also depends on how many passes and runs they do.

I will never buy a Wagner, and nothing personal to the brand. But the hype it gets on these forums for underachieving, and it’s cost - I’ll never understand

Your point was that ATM is objectively better and another point you made was that it doesn't have heat soak...

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

Your point was that ATM is objectively better and another point you made was that it doesn't have heat soak...

My point is that you're objectively an idiot.

Actually, that’s the exact opposite. The smaller lighter design of the Wagner would be better otption for drag racers because it disapates heat faster, but has a lower thermal capacity.

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Actually, street racers would prefer a shitty cooler that cools down quickly, and doesn’t soak heat (especially important when you’re staging)

(My quote, unmodified because you clearly didn’t read it before)

Something like the Wagner would be BETTER for street racers for that particular reason, as I pointed out before. I can clearly see reading isn’t your strong point, but I’m happy to hold your hand and spoon feed facts to you, as this is clearly something you can’t gasp on you’re.


The Wagner is only good for a few short pulls - which is why I pointed out it’s not in the same class of intercooler as more track oriented options like the VSFR, ATM and ER.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Actually, that’s the exact opposite. The smaller lighter design of the Wagner would be better otption for drag racers because it disapates heat faster, but has a lower thermal capacity.



(My quote, unmodified because you clearly didn’t read it before)

Something like the Wagner would be BETTER for street racers for that particular reason, as I pointed out before. I can clearly see reading isn’t your strong point, but I’m happy to hold your hand and spoon feed facts to you, as this is clearly something you can’t gasp on you’re.


The Wagner is only good for a few short pulls - which is why I pointed out it’s not in the same class of intercooler as more track oriented options like the VSFR, ATM and ER.

You keep going back and forth on everything you claim when I point out your contradictions and inaccuracies. Like I said from the beginning, it's clear you just like getting people riled up. I engaged for a bit, because I don't want others to be persuaded by wrong information, but I think you've done enough for your credibility that I don't have to involve myself anymore.

[mike@x-ph.com]

We now carry the new VRSF 5" Competition intercooler ... Its meant for a performance level in between the standard 5" and the 6" Race