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      10-28-2018, 07:08 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by eDrive View Post
Wow that is outstanding.

Thanks for the info.
I am not sure I agree with Robin here. I don't have PSS to test myself so I can't confirm, but I think the issue is more nuanced than just saying that PSS are fine when it's cold as long as it's dry.

My own experience with Bridgestone S04 Pole Position (PSS competitor) is that they lose grip rapidly below 50F.

It may be different among different tires in the category, but as richb811 pointed out, the compound is actually harder than the winter tires at low temp. At some point, summer tires are going to have an abrupt transition from OK to awful - when they pass their glass transition temperature.

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/trav...ires-in-winter

"Get them cold enough and every tire will have the grip of a Formica kitchen counter. For a race tire, it might be 40 Fahrenheit. For a winter tire it could be 60 degrees below zero. Summer tire tread starts becoming Formica-like somewhere just below freezing. Most all-season tires are still pliable below zero, but some "ultra-high-performance all-season" tires start losing grip well before that."

There is probably some range of temperatures where the two tires are very close in performance. Certainly if you are at 0 C you will be better off with the performance winter or all season tire. Above that it may depend on the specific tire. Without test data, only Michelin knows exactly.
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      10-28-2018, 07:43 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I am not sure I agree with Robin here. I don't have PSS to test myself so I can't confirm, but I think the issue is more nuanced than just saying that PSS are fine when it's cold as long as it's dry.

My own experience with Bridgestone S04 Pole Position (PSS competitor) is that they lose grip rapidly below 50F.

It may be different among different tires in the category, but as richb811 pointed out, the compound is actually harder than the winter tires at low temp. At some point, summer tires are going to have an abrupt transition from OK to awful - when they pass their glass transition temperature.

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/trav...ires-in-winter

"Get them cold enough and every tire will have the grip of a Formica kitchen counter. For a race tire, it might be 40 Fahrenheit. For a winter tire it could be 60 degrees below zero. Summer tire tread starts becoming Formica-like somewhere just below freezing. Most all-season tires are still pliable below zero, but some "ultra-high-performance all-season" tires start losing grip well before that."

There is probably some range of temperatures where the two tires are very close in performance. Certainly if you are at 0 C you will be better off with the performance winter or all season tire. Above that it may depend on the specific tire. Without test data, only Michelin knows exactly.

Guys,

I think I have the perfect solution to this conundrum. You all need to move here to California.

It's 10/28/18, and today it was bright, sunny, and 74-degrees out. You NEVER need winter tires, man! The only time you possibly have to drive carefully is on the 2 or 3 occasions it rains each year. And even then, just do as cntzl suggests: get wider tires for more traction (265/30/19 front and 295/30/19 rear) and continue to drive like a hooligan!

Now, the only potential downside to this plan is that upon entering the state, you're required to trade in all your normal clothing for a Maoist People's Republic of California uniform. But, you know, living under a totalitarian regime is a small price to pay for awesome driving weather, right?
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      10-29-2018, 12:39 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Now imagine where a Z4M would be considering the Z4 M40i is basically as good as the OG M2.
The new Z4 clearly is a fantastic handling car but noticeably slower off the line vs the OG M2.
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      10-29-2018, 12:04 PM   #114
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Yeah I can keep up with bad drivers of the F80 M3 no problem in my 135i. However, a well driven M3 is far to fast. I have no doubt the comp M2 is capable of more than the M2 base.
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      10-29-2018, 12:26 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
Guys,

I think I have the perfect solution to this conundrum. You all need to move here to California.

It's 10/28/18, and today it was bright, sunny, and 74-degrees out. You NEVER need winter tires, man! The only time you possibly have to drive carefully is on the 2 or 3 occasions it rains each year. And even then, just do as cntzl suggests: get wider tires for more traction (265/30/19 front and 295/30/19 rear) and continue to drive like a hooligan!

Now, the only potential downside to this plan is that upon entering the state, you're required to trade in all your normal clothing for a Maoist People's Republic of California uniform. But, you know, living under a totalitarian regime is a small price to pay for awesome driving weather, right?
The "Party" approves this message.
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      10-29-2018, 12:47 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post

Now, the only potential downside to this plan is that upon entering the state, you're required to trade in all your normal clothing for a Maoist People's Republic of California uniform. But, you know, living under a totalitarian regime is a small price to pay for awesome driving weather, right?
Yes, every state has its issues

Once I was traveling in an "other" state where I was pulled over by a state trooper on the highway for going 4 miles per hour over the speed limit. I hadn't seen a European car on the road for several hours. The trooper looked over my BMW and said to me "you really should buy American". I think I'll stay in CA!
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      10-31-2018, 01:06 PM   #117
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Total points awarded 54 vs. 58 for the OG M2.
I guess they weren't impressed.
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      10-31-2018, 01:12 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
M2C gains 9 seconds over M2 at the Nurburgring, also equals the M4 time.

M2C runs neck and neck with M2 on the tighter Hockenheim Short.

The M2 Competition and S55 advantage takes over on the power track, while on tighter/shorter track the M2 keeps up with the less weight. (note: M2C times done in 30+ degree higher track temps)

M2C - 7:52
M2 - 8:01





M2C - 1:12.2
M2 - 1:12.2



Something both sides can be happy about.
Thanks for posting, interesting results.

Seems like the M2C is the more mature car now. Matches short track times, but pulls away on the bigger tracks.
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      10-31-2018, 01:14 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
Guys,

I think I have the perfect solution to this conundrum. You all need to move here to California.

It's 10/28/18, and today it was bright, sunny, and 74-degrees out. You NEVER need winter tires, man! The only time you possibly have to drive carefully is on the 2 or 3 occasions it rains each year. And even then, just do as cntzl suggests: get wider tires for more traction (265/30/19 front and 295/30/19 rear) and continue to drive like a hooligan!

Now, the only potential downside to this plan is that upon entering the state, you're required to trade in all your normal clothing for a Maoist People's Republic of California uniform. But, you know, living under a totalitarian regime is a small price to pay for awesome driving weather, right?
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      10-31-2018, 01:16 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by DC2RtoCT9Atof87 View Post
Let's all be real. As an OG M2 owner, and if money were no object, I would choose an M2C. It's a better car. Period.

That being said, I bought an used OGM2 at about 60% the price of a new M2C. And, I smile everyday I drive it. Not because of the price, but because it's a fun car.

Y'all need to just enjoy what you have.
Agree 100%.

Both are fantastic cars to own.
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      10-31-2018, 01:18 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I'm not a hater, I'm just being realistic. Anyone out for a used E92 should be aware that it is a potential money pit. Same thing with E60 M5.

Your arguments are purely emotional and don't make any sense. Just because you haven't had any issues doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't know how to put it any more plainly than that.

It is a great car, but it has a number of pain points that just don't exist on some of the newer models. You could easily spend that $10k difference in maintenance or repairs.

Maybe my tone comes across as overly negative, but my point was to show that it may not be the bargain it looks like on the surface. Again, still a great car and Fire Orange is the best M color.
You speak the truth. S65 and s85 are money pits.
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      01-20-2019, 04:18 PM   #122
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Have you even listen to M2 Comp? It doesn't have everything better. I do love that musical sound of N55 engine. S55 sounds like there is ALWAYS resonating something by mistake. If someone tells me M2 is slow, then sure, goodbye fun cars, go bye RS6 and heavily tune it. If you want anything agile and fun to drive, you just can't say its ok to have 10 percent more horspower but more heavy weight Even though, enjoy your M2C.
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      01-21-2019, 02:02 AM   #123
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Have you even listen to M2 Comp? It doesn't have everything better. I do love that musical sound of N55 engine. S55 sounds like there is ALWAYS resonating something by mistake. If someone tells me M2 is slow, then sure, goodbye fun cars, go bye RS6 and heavily tune it. If you want anything agile and fun to drive, you just can't say its ok to have 10 percent more horspower but more heavy weight Even though, enjoy your M2C.
Yeah the odd 50HP and Nm you won't feel, but you really do feel the weight increase by 50kgs on an aleady 1500kg car. It's true.


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      01-21-2019, 02:30 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtr76 View Post
Have you even listen to M2 Comp? It doesn't have everything better. I do love that musical sound of N55 engine. S55 sounds like there is ALWAYS resonating something by mistake. If someone tells me M2 is slow, then sure, goodbye fun cars, go bye RS6 and heavily tune it. If you want anything agile and fun to drive, you just can't say its ok to have 10 percent more horspower but more heavy weight Even though, enjoy your M2C.
Yeah the odd 50HP and Nm you won't feel, but you really do feel the weight increase by 50kgs on an aleady 1500kg car. It's true.


Cheers
Robin
The man didn't say he felt one thing more than the other, he said becoming a competition via increasing both power and weight is not his cup of tea.

I have a great idea for CS/CSL - add another 100kg and 100hp, job done.
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      01-21-2019, 02:44 AM   #125
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The man didn't say he felt one thing more than another, he said becoming a competition via increasing both power and weight is not his cup of tea.

I have a great idea for CS/CSL - add another 100kg and 100hp, job done.


Since the launch of M2 Comp the internet was full with discussions about that issue.

You have to do it with my sarcastic statement in my former post. You don't/ won't feel the weight difference. Turn in is even sharper so what's the point in discussing this so called issue over and over again.

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      01-21-2019, 02:54 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtr76 View Post
Have you even listen to M2 Comp? It doesn't have everything better. I do love that musical sound of N55 engine. S55 sounds like there is ALWAYS resonating something by mistake. If someone tells me M2 is slow, then sure, goodbye fun cars, go bye RS6 and heavily tune it. If you want anything agile and fun to drive, you just can't say its ok to have 10 percent more horspower but more heavy weight Even though, enjoy your M2C.
Yeah the odd 50HP and Nm you won't feel, but you really do feel the weight increase by 50kgs on an aleady 1500kg car. It's true.


Cheers
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It's not even 50kg (more like 30kg) if you choose 437M wheels and smaller blue brakes (which you can in many parts of the world).
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      01-21-2019, 02:54 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
The man didn't say he felt one thing more than another, he said becoming a competition via increasing both power and weight is not his cup of tea.

I have a great idea for CS/CSL - add another 100kg and 100hp, job done.


Since the launch of M2 Comp the internet was full with discussions about that issue.

You have to do it with my sarcastic statement in my former post. You don't/ won't feel the weight difference. Turn in is even sharper so what's the point in discussing this so called issue over and over again.

Cheers
Robin
I have yet to push a competition on track, but I have to say the OG's turn-in is a bit dumb all by itself. It has everything to do the factory EPS tuning which I heard does improve quite a lot with later models. I also acknowledge that differential tuning gets better with the competition. So I tend to attribute competition's better lap times to advanced software and apparent more power. The same to be said to F80/82 ZCP and its base model.

However, physically, the weight penalty is still there especially on front end, always holding you back a few tenths. No doubt about it. With OG, you really need to load F87C chassis software and add power to feel the weight advantage.
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      01-21-2019, 03:09 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post

However, physically, the weight penalty is still there especially on front end, always holding you back a few tenths. No doubt about it.
Whatever. If I say it's not there you come with the opposite, so carry on.

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      01-21-2019, 03:11 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
The man didn't say he felt one thing more than another, he said becoming a competition via increasing both power and weight is not his cup of tea.

I have a great idea for CS/CSL - add another 100kg and 100hp, job done.


Since the launch of M2 Comp the internet was full with discussions about that issue.

You have to do it with my sarcastic statement in my former post. You don't/ won't feel the weight difference. Turn in is even sharper so what's the point in discussing this so called issue over and over again.

Cheers
Robin
I have yet to push a competition on track, but I have to say the OG's turn-in is a bit dumb all by itself. It has everything to do the factory EPS tuning which I heard does improve quite a lot with later models. I also acknowledge that diff tuning gets better with the competition. So I tend to attribute competition's better lap times to advanced software and apparent more power. The same to be said to F80/82 ZCP and its base model.

However, physically, the weight penalty is still there especially on front end, always holding you back a few tenths. No doubt about it. With OG, You really need to F87C chassis tuning and add power and compare to C.
If you don't like the weight, don't get the bigger brakes or 788M wheels (20kg+ combined weight), simple as that. They are optional in many markets anyway. For the markets that they are standard, you can always sell them and even make profit out of it like I and some other members did. Remaining heaviest component is the exhaust that weighs 15kg extra compared to the OG M2's exhaust due to the dual pipe design. You can always shave that extra weight off by going with a single mid catback system such as AA but even if you keep the stock exhaust, it definitely won't make "a few tenths" of a difference due to how low it's located on the car.
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      01-21-2019, 07:02 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I have yet to push a competition on track, but I have to say the OG's turn-in is a bit dumb all by itself. It has everything to do the factory EPS tuning which I heard does improve quite a lot with later models. I also acknowledge that differential tuning gets better with the competition. So I tend to attribute competition's better lap times to advanced software and apparent more power. The same to be said to F80/82 ZCP and its base model.

However, physically, the weight penalty is still there especially on front end, always holding you back a few tenths. No doubt about it. With OG, you really need to load F87C chassis software and add power to feel the weight advantage.
It's not just about the weight!

It's more about where the weight is positioned!

The M2C doesn't have the extra weight of the front mount intercooler in the front so at the very front of the car there is actually more weight on the OG M2. The oil cooler has also been relocated on the M2C to the bottom of the car facing downwards so possibly resulting in a lower centre of gravity...
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