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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > bootmod3: Map Switching (DEMO) - Advanced End User/Tuning Features (Part 2)

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      10-23-2020, 12:19 PM   #23
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You got the Speedtech stage 3 kit? How is it?
Mine is being installed right now. I'll let you know in a couple of weeks.

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Out of curiosity as I didn't go that route, how much is BM3 plus a custom tune? I see that a lot of people go that route.
I created a thread where I started documenting all of the custom tuners and their pricing. Pricing is really all over the place:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1733018
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      10-23-2020, 03:39 PM   #24
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Hi is antilag pertaining to 6MT? Thanks
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      10-24-2020, 06:27 PM   #25
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Got it.

Well, $600 for a suite of Stg 1/2/2+ ACN, 91, 93, E30, and Race Gas OTS maps that are better than comparative custom maps, along with map switching and easy phone flashing make BM3 probably the best performance bargain out there for our cars.

Cary tried tuning my car, but it wasn't as good as the new OTS. He said "it couldn't possibly be him bc he's tuned 1000's of BMW's". When I explained that the OTS was doing better and asked for a partial refund to cover some of his time (even tho his map wasn't as good) he said no.

I'm not the only one. Do some digging and you'll find the Youtube video of an M2 guy who dyno'ed worse with Cary's map vs OTS. But, this issue isn't exclusive to Cary. The latest gen BM3 OTS maps are in a league of their own.
Cary's fourth revision got me super knocked during the log. He's blaming that I don't have the correct mix of e30. But it's same tank of fuel i used for previous revision.

When my HPFP targeted 2500 but only hit 2100, he said my car is running fine no more revisions needed. LOL

Cary custom tune for n55 = throwing money into the toilet and flush
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      10-24-2020, 07:32 PM   #26
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To be fair, no custom tune is going to beat the latest BM3 OTS maps since they already max out the stock HPFP.

And now that the Stg 2+ maps are out, no custom tune is going to beat the 2+ OTS unless you have a very specific situation like a Stage 3 turbo or are tuning with meth.

But the custom tuners will gladly take your money saying they can do better, not offer any refunds when they don’t, and some of them may blow your motor trying and then blame it somehow on you.
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      10-24-2020, 09:08 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Got it.

Well, $600 for a suite of Stg 1/2/2+ ACN, 91, 93, E30, and Race Gas OTS maps that are better than comparative custom maps, along with map switching and easy phone flashing make BM3 probably the best performance bargain out there for our cars.

Cary tried tuning my car, but it wasn't as good as the new OTS. He said "it couldn't possibly be him bc he's tuned 1000's of BMW's". When I explained that the OTS was doing better and asked for a partial refund to cover some of his time (even tho his map wasn't as good) he said no.

I'm not the only one. Do some digging and you'll find the Youtube video of an M2 guy who dyno'ed worse with Cary's map vs OTS. But, this issue isn't exclusive to Cary. The latest gen BM3 OTS maps are in a league of their own.
Cary's fourth revision got me super knocked during the log. He's blaming that I don't have the correct mix of e30. But it's same tank of fuel i used for previous revision.

When my HPFP targeted 2500 but only hit 2100, he said my car is running fine no more revisions needed. LOL

Cary custom tune for n55 = throwing money into the toilet and flush
Pretty sure Cary was responsible for blowing several S55 motors from the M3/M4 guys. It was earlier this year if I recall correctly. There was a big discussion about it on the F80 Bimmerpost site
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      10-25-2020, 12:35 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
To be fair, no custom tune is going to beat the latest BM3 OTS maps since they already max out the stock HPFP.

And now that the Stg 2+ maps are out, no custom tune is going to beat the 2+ OTS unless you have a very specific situation like a Stage 3 turbo or are tuning with meth.

But the custom tuners will gladly take your money saying they can do better, not offer any refunds when they don’t, and some of them may blow your motor trying and then blame it somehow on you.
Well this is a bit inaccurate imo, and here's why:

1) Just because the hpfp is maxed out doesn't mean there isn't more on the table, there are many other tuning factors besides fuel such as ignition timing for instance, and conditions that said car will experience. So no OTS map will ever be able to perfectly push each car to the potential, there will always be room for a custom tune to make the best possible fit for each car. But I do have to say bm3 makes the best ots maps I have ever seen, and I've seen alot in the bmw world and jdm world (subaru, mistubishi etc).

2) let's talk about ignition timing first: an ots map will never be able to fully max out the ignition timing curve on a car because of the variation in fuel quality around the world. Also it depends on how hot the climate is, what kind of intercooler you have and how it's able to deal with iats. So if an ots map were to push one car to the limit it may cause another car to knock so there must always be some conservation in this area in order to be a safe for all tune. So a custom tune would be able to tailor the ignition timing curve to perfectly match your fuel, climate, mods and have the car run 10/10 and never knock while an ots map can never get close.

3) altitude: from what I know the excellent tuners at bootmod3 halim (denmark)and ptf (Toronto) are both located at or very close to sea level. But bmw owners can be at any altitude from sea level all the way up to Denver colorado, and there is no way for a denver car to ever hit the boost targets of a sea level car. So the ots maps again have to take this into account when setting the boost targets, or maybe they don't and you have to run a lower stage map. Either way a one size fits all tune will never be able to accommodate atmospheric density and peak boost targets while staying in the effencency range of your turbo like a custom tune can. This is even further complicated by what kind of diverter valve and turbo inlet and downpipe (catless or high flow catted) you have as it will change wgdc allowing you to push more or less. Again a custom tune will be able to fully match your car to your altitude.

4) fuel quality: this is huge as there are acn maps for a reason. Europe tends to have higher octane fuels than NA, while even within a country fuel quality can vary vastly. For example in Canada the best fuel quality is in Alberta with husky 94, while BC' chevron 94 absolutely sucks imo (based on data logs observed with a tuner on an sti). So if you run an acn map it will be extremely conservative but you might have a bit more left on the table, if you run a normal map it might be too agressive.

5) ambient temps: in cold climates the air is more dense so you will need more fuel so the ots maps might not function properly. If it does function fine then there might be more on the table for hotter climates. Same goes for ignition timing.

So with a custom tune your car will be perfectly adapted to your environment, fuel quality, mods etc and it will absolutely better than any ots map. You can even vary your custom tunes to be adapted for your mods but leave room for climate variations, or adapted to favor timing over boost for track cars. Or max everything out for max power builds etc.

As you can see there can be more to gain with a custom tune. But that being said with quality ots maps like bm3 ones it might not be worth it.
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      10-25-2020, 12:37 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
Pretty sure Cary was responsible for blowing several S55 motors from the M3/M4 guys. It was earlier this year if I recall correctly. There was a big discussion about it on the F80 Bimmerpost site
Hmm if this is true then guess he was just all hype... Guess that's just a lesson to always vet your tuners before hopping on the hype train.

If it is not true then I take this back.
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      10-25-2020, 04:57 AM   #30
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Thic F30 on YT seemed to have a very blunt end user experience with Cary Jordan if you watch the videos he tries to like the tune but instantly goes back to BM3 OTS.

Seems his name is fetishized tbh
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      10-25-2020, 09:30 AM   #31
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F87source all great points and glad you laid them out like this.

I’m not a tuner, but I’ve completed and have looked at thousands of logs all with different fuels, temps, conditions, hardware, etc. My day job is data & trends, which helps when reviewing even tho I’m not an SME in this case.

What I can say is there’s something inherently different in the latest gen OTS that allows them to react to the variables you’ve mentioned within the tune, whereas the custom tunes just aim for a certain amount of timing & boost. This of course assumes you have the right hardware and fuel for a particular OTS.

This process controls style approach vs pure timing/boost targeting is what is allowing the new OTS maps to create as much or more power as custom, while being smoother and safer.

Everything you said has been spot on for OTS vs custom until Halim reworked everything and went to the 5.8 maps for the M2. He’s definitely in a league of his own right now. FWIW, I don’t think it’s even possible for a custom tuner to be able to make maps like 5.8 in the editor, so they’re at a distinct disadvantage—but again, I’m not a tuner and can’t confirm.

Altho, if someone wants to go get a custom tune and go back to back vs one of the 5.8 maps on a Dynojet, let’s see it. I predict that if they get more hp, it won’t be much, and it’ll eat into timing or boost safeties, and won’t perform as good year round.

Last edited by ZM2; 10-25-2020 at 09:50 AM..
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      10-25-2020, 03:21 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
F87source all great points and glad you laid them out like this.

I’m not a tuner, but I’ve completed and have looked at thousands of logs all with different fuels, temps, conditions, hardware, etc. My day job is data & trends, which helps when reviewing even tho I’m not an SME in this case.

What I can say is there’s something inherently different in the latest gen OTS that allows them to react to the variables you’ve mentioned within the tune, whereas the custom tunes just aim for a certain amount of timing & boost. This of course assumes you have the right hardware and fuel for a particular OTS.

This process controls style approach vs pure timing/boost targeting is what is allowing the new OTS maps to create as much or more power as custom, while being smoother and safer.

Everything you said has been spot on for OTS vs custom until Halim reworked everything and went to the 5.8 maps for the M2. He’s definitely in a league of his own right now. FWIW, I don’t think it’s even possible for a custom tuner to be able to make maps like 5.8 in the editor, so they’re at a distinct disadvantage—but again, I’m not a tuner and can’t confirm.

Altho, if someone wants to go get a custom tune and go back to back vs one of the 5.8 maps on a Dynojet, let’s see it. I predict that if they get more hp, it won’t be much, and it’ll eat into timing or boost safeties, and won’t perform as good year round.
Yes I have also seen the bm3 logs and I must admit they are fricken unbelievably good, so good job to the ptf guys. Just some side notes I came from the JDM world and cobb accessport ots maps imo were trash so this is a refreshingly nice thing to see.

But all tunes try to adapt to the conditions the car is in, that's what the sensors for ambient conditions are for. However, it is up to the tuner to dial in the road map for the car to adjust - the better the road map the better the overall tune. As you can see PTF is getting that road map dialed in better and better each and every time, however this is where the complexities of having different mods, conditions, fuel etc come into play and makes it impossible to reach a one size fits all tune. There really is no special sauce that they are able to put in over a custom tuner, they are just able to keep refining the ots maps over and over again that it closes the gap. This is huge props to bm3 because these maps are usually free and it takes alot of time and energy to keep developing them for essentially no extra money.

No custom tuning is not just boost and timing vs. rpm, you also have to balance in load maps, fuelling etc. This is what separates a good tuner vs. a bad tuner. There is nothing special with how the ots maps are made vs. a custom tune, the reason why BM3 ots maps are so good is because they keep working on it over and over further refining. The reason why alot of custom tunes are utter crap is because either the tuner is lazy and simply uploads a similar tune final they use for every car of similar mods essentially an ots map, or the customer doesn't want to pay to get it done right. Here is what I used to do on my sti (I use the word tuned alot but in most cases it means further refinement of an existing map): get it tuned on the dyno because it is safe incase I need to stop the car, then get it tuned on part throttle, on/off throttle, A/C on, A/C off, cold starts in different temps, then a road tune, then finally I take it to the track and further refine it there. This process took months to a full year to complete and costed me thousands of dollars of dyno time and tuning time, but it was common in the subaru world where the stock ecu was shit and could not adapt. This is what has to be done to get a good map compared to what people do these days which is send some logs and that's it. I won't even get into the discussion of ecu table access making for better tuning, but that's also a factor.

I have dealt with adaptronic ecu's, haltechs, aem infinities with really good "auto tuning" abilities that far exceeds the ability of the stock ecu to learn and adapt, however the best these ecus can do is move the values closer to what they should be but it always requires a tuner to make the final adjustments. So again it is how the tuner makes the map, not some special feature present in the table editor.


I have also looked at their new maps you mentioned and it seems to be universal for ps2 and stock turbo, again this is a weak point. I saw what you wrote about it being more conservative for ps2 so it will work for stock as well, this is true but it means the tune is not optimized. For example the stock turbo is able to make boost sooner but is way out of its efficiency range at 20 psi whereas ps2 is not able to hit boost as soon but able to make more in the top end. The boost curves are also different with how much boost either turbo is able to make at different points in the rpm band, so if you want to make a one size fits all map for both turbos it will not be optimized for either one. A custom tune will be able to make the boost curve fit better to your car and mods allowing for the tune to feel smoother.


Sure a custom tune might not be able to make alot more power if at all, but it will definitely have a better area under the curve, a smoother power band and delivery, and it definitely will be safer. You do not have to pull all the safety out of tuning for a custom map you can leave the same amount of head room as an ots map you just make it fit better to your car. Remember tuning is not about max power as that does not translate into drivability, it is about area under the curve and power delivery - something that is not able to be perfected by an ots map because just like tailored suits and a human body there is no such thing as one size fits all. Also remember ots maps are tailored for max power to appeal more to the drag racing guys as the track community is almost none existent.


Well until AI becomes a reality and cars just auto tune themselves.


But overall I must applaud bm3, despite everything I said the ots maps is so fricken good I keep saying it is almost not worth it to go custom, especially if you only street the car. If you are tracking it hard and need to optimize every parameter and keep temps under control then custom is your best bet. If you have any other tuning solution yeah you got to go custom as the ots maps imo suck or you don't get ots maps at all.
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      10-25-2020, 03:41 PM   #33
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All makes sense.

We still need someone who thinks they have a better tune than one of the new OTS maps to put it on the dyno to see how the curves and logs compare.

I already spent time, money, and the brain damage that came with it trying, and OTS proved superior to at least one of the tuners. And, I don’t think there’s enough area under the curve to be gained to justify the effort unless someone has a very special use case.

Oh well, at least I learned a lot thru the process and my motor is still in one piece!
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      10-26-2020, 09:53 AM   #34
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      10-26-2020, 10:43 AM   #35
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All makes sense.

We still need someone who thinks they have a better tune than one of the new OTS maps to put it on the dyno to see how the curves and logs compare.
piece!
I really need to find a decent dyno. The one here locally showed me lower than stock and it pulls SO much harder now than it did prior to my mods.
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