[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by Daleb

Could you quote your original post?

You searching the thread takes the same amount of time as me doing it.

It's completely irrelevant now anyway, because ZM2 has taken back his claim that his car makes 50-75hp more than the bm3 stg2 93 tune and over 500hp on the Stg+ tune. So continuing the convo of how his datalogs prove otherwise is a waste of time at this point, because he's taken back his claim. There isn't reason to debate anymore.

[ZM2]

Never said it: “because ZM2 has taken back his claim that his car makes 50-75hp more than the bm3 stg2 93 tune”

Entertain the man with your magical log/hp calculator.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Never said it: “because ZM2 has taken back his claim that his car makes 50-75hp more than the bm3 stg2 93 tune”

Entertain the man with your magical log/hp calculator.

Make up your mind. Does your car make 50-75hp more than the bm3 Stg2 93 tune, and/or is making over 500hp?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

Make up your mind. Does your car make 50-75hp more than the bm3 Stg2 93 tune, and/or is making over 500hp?

Again, I never said this: “Does your car make 50-75hp more than the bm3 Stg2 93 tune”. You created this thought in your head and keep saying I said it.

“and/or is making over 500hp?” Yes. Any RWD car making ~425whp is making ~500 engine hp. Which is what I’ve already said. The only time I mentioned 500hp I stated engine, you just didn’t read that apparently.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Daleb

Can you elaborate on how you are determining power gains through logs? As I said before I’m genuinely interested in how to do this and you seem to be the only one that can.

The guys familiar with Virtual Dyno, like AmuroRay and thejeremyman9 will be the best resource for this: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1710794

Good tool to compare logs on the same car, but not a great tool to compare logs bn cars.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Again, I never said this: “Does your car make 50-75hp more than the bm3 Stg2 93 tune”. You created this thought in your head and keep saying I said it.

“and/or is making over 500hp?” Yes. Any RWD car making ~425whp is making ~500 engine hp. Which is what I’ve already said. The only time I mentioned 500hp I stated engine, you just didn’t read that apparently.

Perfect. That's what your datalogs show, so we're in agreeance. Like I said, $2500 in fueling upgrades and the hassle of mixing fuels is not worth the gain of 20hp to me.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

Perfect. That's what your datalogs show, so we're in agreeance. Like I said, $2500 in fueling upgrades and the hassle of mixing fuels is not worth the gain of 20hp to me.

Glad you figured it out, and 93 is your jam.

For those of us that run our tuned cars on track in summer, the gains are much, much more than 20hp bc power on 93 drops after a couple laps and severely by the end of a 30min session, e.g., my switch to Stg 2 E30 from Stg 2 93 gained me 3sec in the summer on a 1:45 track, even tho my stock HPFP wasn’t capable of producing anything beyond Stg 2 93 on the dyno.

That is a gigantic improvement for only switching a map and adding some ethanol, and it looks like Stg 2+ is going to net me another >1sec gain without having to spend $10/gal like race gas.

And that’s my jam.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Glad you figured it out, and 93 is your jam.

For those of us that run our tuned cars on track in summer, the gains are much, much more than 20hp bc power on 93 drops after a couple laps and severely by the end of a 30min session, e.g., my switch to Stg 2 E30 from Stg 2 93 gained me 3sec in the summer on a 1:45 track, even tho my stock HPFP wasn’t capable of producing anything beyond Stg 2 93 on the dyno.

That is a gigantic improvement for only switching a map and adding some ethanol, and it looks like Stg 2+ is going to net me another >1sec gain without having to spend $10/gal like race gas.

And that’s my jam.

And this is why I asked you to release your dyno graphs. Because your datalogs do not show gains of "much much more than 20hp", especially while at the same time you claiming dinan turbo is only good for peak hp compared to stock,... nor do your logs show significant cooling compared to 93.

You keep saying conditions matter. Well, that's why we have dynos. To take as much of those condition variables out of play. Track comparisons mean nothing because too many varying conditions.

[ZM2]

“Track comparisons mean nothing because too many varying conditions.”

Really? On a track that I have hundreds of laps on and added ethanol and switched maps same day and nothing else? You’re still assuming things. The reality is 93 is a total crap fuel for tuned cars on the track in the summer.

But don’t worry, you’ll get your OTS dyno curves in a few weeks, and they’ll show everything I’ve said so far. 50whp above Stg 2 E30 on my car and stock HPFP, and higher than the 420-430whp you’re stating.

Been chatting with 6speed_M2 and he’ll probably get his up sooner.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by ZM2

“Track comparisons mean nothing because too many varying conditions.”

Really? On a track that I have hundreds of laps on and added ethanol and switched maps same day and nothing else? You’re still assuming things. The reality is 93 is a total crap fuel for tuned cars on the track in the summer.

But don’t worry, you’ll get your OTS dyno curves in a few weeks, and they’ll show everything I’ve said so far. 50whp above Stg 2 E30 on my car and stock HPFP, and higher than the 420-430whp you’re stating.

Been chatting with 6speed_M2 and he’ll probably get his up sooner.

Correct. Anecdotal evidence is meaningless to others trying to make informed decisions.

And yes, there you go making that claim again. 50hp above e30 tune, is 75hp above the 93 tune. Which is were I get the 50-75hp number you claim to me, yet deny making that claim depending on how you feel at the moment.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

Correct. Anecdotal evidence is meaningless to others trying to make informed decisions.

And yes, there you go making that claim again. 50hp above e30 tune, is 75hp above the 93 tune. Which is were I get the 50-75hp number you claim to me, yet deny making that claim depending on how you feel at the moment.

“75hp above the 93 tune”. I never said this, you said this, and I’ve already explained why that isn’t the case for my car, but you apparently can’t read.

I can understand why someone may not want to spend $2500 to get 20-25whp peak, but for those of us that do more than cruise around there are other benefits to using ethanol and these maps. Plus, other guys are getting substantial time gains in the real world bc of the area under the curve increase in the upper RPMs, and are using this as a turbo upgrade OTS path later.

At this point you just sound like you don’t want to use these maps for your particular use case.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by ZM2

“75hp above the 93 tune”. I never said this, you said this, and I’ve already explained why that isn’t the case for my car, but you apparently can’t read.

I can understand why someone may not want to spend $2500 to get 20-25whp peak, but for those of us that do more than cruise around there are other benefits to using ethanol and these maps. Plus, other guys are getting substantial time gains in the real world bc of the area under the curve increase in the upper RPMs, and are using this as a turbo upgrade OTS path later.

At this point you just sound like you don’t want to use these maps for your particular use case.

The e30 tune makes 25hp more than the 93 tune. Making it correct that you are claiming 75hp increase over the 93 tune. And also makes it correct that the Stg2+ doesn't provide really any gains over the e30 tune.

And remember, we are talking about an OTS tune, not a race tune. The Stg2+ is not a race tune. If it is, I think bm3 should make customers aware of that and it's intended purpose.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

The e30 tune makes 25hp more than the 93 tune. Making it correct that you are claiming 75hp increase over the 93 tune.

And remember, we are talking about an OTS tune, not a race tune. The Stg2+ is not a race tune. If it is, I think bm3 should make customers aware of that and it's intended purpose.

I never claimed that gain over Stg 2 93 for my car. Go read my stock HPFP comments.

What is the hell is a “race tune” vs OTS? You can run whatever you want on track, log it, review it, and make sure it’s working for your car. That’s clearly outside the bounds of what you’re wanting to do, so stop making up things like you need a “race tune”.

[6speed_M2]

Just wanted to share with everyone the dyno graph from my pump gas run & the E30 map. Halim commented that the car could use more ethanol and I'm experimenting with that. I might add another half gallon next fill up and make it around 4.5 gallons of E85. I fill up when the car is about empty anyways.

I just order the TMAP sensor. Hopefully I can get it installed next week and reflash to the E30+ map. I'm not looking forward to my 100 mile round trip to the dyno and back but hey, I'll do it no problem!

As far as the debate of whether or not it's worth the price, that's purely subjective. I don't think there is a wrong answer it's just about your preference. I know people that would never do it and then there are people like me who will jump on the opportunity.

Personally the pump gas map still felt really quick. I think for canyon/track driving the stage 2 91 octane map should be plenty for most drivers (including myself). I'm not one to fly up the canyon per say. I enjoy it but I'm going 7-8/10 up there. The power is mostly for the freeway and street pulls although it is still manageable on the twistys! I'm still getting the hang of the car. I'm not the fastest driver when it comes to canyon/track driving by any means.

I'll keep everyone posted as far as the next dyno is concerned!

[Daleb]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

It's completely irrelevant now anyway, because ZM2 has taken back his claim that his car makes 50-75hp more than the bm3 stg2 93 tune and over 500hp on the Stg+ tune. So continuing the convo of how his datalogs prove otherwise is a waste of time at this point, because he's taken back his claim. There isn't reason to debate anymore.

You aren’t very helpful are you? I can’t find it hence asking but no worries.

Unlike you I’m not interested in the back and forth in this thread. You say you can determine power increases through logs, to me that’s a useful tool.

I’ll just stick to my 100-200 or 60-130 times. I know my cars making a chunk more useful power when it’s shaving over 1s off these times. This bench/calculator racing isn’t for me....

[Daleb]

Originally Posted by 6speed_M2

Just wanted to share with everyone the dyno graph from my pump gas run & the E30 map. Halim commented that the car could use more ethanol and I'm experimenting with that. I might add another half gallon next fill up and make it around 4.5 gallons of E85. I fill up when the car is about empty anyways.

I just order the TMAP sensor. Hopefully I can get it installed next week and reflash to the E30+ map. I'm not looking forward to my 100 mile round trip to the dyno and back but hey, I'll do it no problem!

As far as the debate of whether or not it's worth the price, that's purely subjective. I don't think there is a wrong answer it's just about your preference. I know people that would never do it and then there are people like me who will jump on the opportunity.

Personally the pump gas map still felt really quick. I think for canyon/track driving the stage 2 91 octane map should be plenty for most drivers (including myself). I'm not one to fly up the canyon per say. I enjoy it but I'm going 7-8/10 up there. The power is mostly for the freeway and street pulls although it is still manageable on the twistys! I'm still getting the hang of the car. I'm not the fastest driver when it comes to canyon/track driving by any means.

I'll keep everyone posted as far as the next dyno is concerned!

Thanks for getting these dynos runs for the various maps, going to be great information. Be good to see what an extra 3/4 psi across the rev range equates to. It would of been great to see a few more degrees timing on the + maps but it is an ots so there needs to be some margin there.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I never claimed that gain over Stg 2 93 for my car. Go read my stock HPFP comments.

What is the hell is a “race tune” vs OTS? You can run whatever you want on track, log it, review it, and make sure it’s working for your car. That’s clearly outside the bounds of what you’re wanting to do, so stop making up things like you need a “race tune”.

You're gonna have to define that yourself, since you are the one making anecdotal race classifications as justifications here.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by 6speed_M2

Just wanted to share with everyone the dyno graph from my pump gas run & the E30 map. Halim commented that the car could use more ethanol and I'm experimenting with that. I might add another half gallon next fill up and make it around 4.5 gallons of E85. I fill up when the car is about empty anyways.

I just order the TMAP sensor. Hopefully I can get it installed next week and reflash to the E30+ map. I'm not looking forward to my 100 mile round trip to the dyno and back but hey, I'll do it no problem!

As far as the debate of whether or not it's worth the price, that's purely subjective. I don't think there is a wrong answer it's just about your preference. I know people that would never do it and then there are people like me who will jump on the opportunity.

Personally the pump gas map still felt really quick. I think for canyon/track driving the stage 2 91 octane map should be plenty for most drivers (including myself). I'm not one to fly up the canyon per say. I enjoy it but I'm going 7-8/10 up there. The power is mostly for the freeway and street pulls although it is still manageable on the twistys! I'm still getting the hang of the car. I'm not the fastest driver when it comes to canyon/track driving by any means.

I'll keep everyone posted as far as the next dyno is concerned!

100% agree that it's purely preference on if the tune is worth the cost and inconvenience of mixing fuels. I explained to ZM2 that it's personal preference, just like how one person likes chocolate ice cream and another likes vanilla, it's not something that's debatable. But he went off on me like I was attacking him because myself and another member argued it wasn't worth the inconvenience to us.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by Daleb

You aren’t very helpful are you? I can’t find it hence asking but no worries.

Unlike you I’m not interested in the back and forth in this thread. You say you can determine power increases through logs, to me that’s a useful tool.

I’ll just stick to my 100-200 or 60-130 times. I know my cars making a chunk more useful power when it’s shaving over 1s off these times ��. This bench/calculator racing isn’t for me....

Couldn't find it?? It's literally on the previous page. Engines don't make more power than the fuel and air they use. Energy is a constant. Never destroyed or created. Only converted. Anyone with experience can read a datalog and fairly accurately guess hp.

100-200 times are useless anecdotal evidence to people deciding if they want to upgrade. Like I've explained to ZM2, there are too make variables in road conditions, tire conditions, tire pressures, weather, air density, etc. Trap times are fine for one person, but not fine for the masses. It's like saying "witchcraft cured my pimples, I'm gonna become a witch now and cure everyone elses pimples"

[CameronM2LCI]

I will say that I currently have an upgraded GC DBB Vargas Turbo with Garrett CHRA turbo along with Dorch stage 2 hpfp, 50/50 blend Methanol, etc and I am not seeing my MAF reading higher than 420ish, and I know for a fact its making a ton more power as I am able to pull on my friends e30 tuned F80 DCT and he knows how to drive it. I would assume I should be higher than 500whp, but not much in the log discloses it as far as I can tell. Running Custom tune obviously through very reputable tuner. TBH its hard for me to grasp how 500whp can be made on stock turbo more or less a stage 1 turbo as its way outside of its efficiency range, but I will await to see the newly awaited log info that will be disclosed at a later date. I just know there is a ton of adjustments with AFR ratio, HPFP output, Load ,etc. I am rambling but I wouldn't put it past these guys being able to finally push through limitations, as I have yet to see it happen.

[Daleb]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

Couldn't find it?? It's literally on the previous page. Engines don't make more power than the fuel and air they use. Energy is a constant. Never destroyed or created. Only converted. Anyone with experience can read a datalog and fairly accurately guess hp.

100-200 times are useless anecdotal evidence to people deciding if they want to upgrade. Like I've explained to ZM2, there are too make variables in road conditions, tire conditions, tire pressures, weather, air density, etc. Trap times are fine for one person, but not fine for the masses. It's like saying "witchcraft cured my pimples, I'm gonna become a witch now and cure everyone elses pimples"

So you’re guessing? If we’re using the M2 maf reading then I suppose we’re all limited to 430whp +\- no matter what we do.

100-200kph 60-130Mph times are definitely not useless and are accepted by many as a performance indicator, just maybe not of interest too you as well as others that would rather see some dyno numbers. However in Europe 100-200 is a bench mark in performance and performance upgrades. Over with you guys 60-130 and 100-150 is used to gauge performance increases for your huge horsepower builds where chucking the car on the dyno isn’t really an option. Are you saying all these world class shops are doing it wrong?

Why do people generally modify the engine in their cars? To go faster and how do you measure that.....

Tune A does this time on my car and tune B goes quicker on my car, only difference being a hpfp and map change. The beauty with dragy is you get your temp, elevation, DA and slope information which helps with your mentioned variables. Yeah you can compare It to other cars but the variables will play a role in this, same car before and afters are the key to this.

Talking about comparing to other cars....mine sits 2nd in world for stock turbo M2 n55 times.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by Daleb

So you’re guessing? If we’re using the M2 maf reading then I suppose we’re all limited to 430whp +\- no matter what we do.

100-200kph 60-130Mph times are definitely not useless and are accepted by many as a performance indicator, just maybe not of interest too you as well as others that would rather see some dyno numbers. However in Europe 100-200 is a bench mark in performance and performance upgrades. Over with you guys 60-130 and 100-150 is used to gauge performance increases for your huge horsepower builds where chucking the car on the dyno isn’t really an option. Are you saying all these world class shops are doing it wrong?

Why do people generally modify the engine in their cars? To go faster and how do you measure that.....

Tune A does this time on my car and tune B goes quicker on my car, only difference being a hpfp and map change. The beauty with dragy is you get your temp, elevation, DA and slope information which helps with your mentioned variables. Yeah you can compare It to other cars but the variables will play a role in this, same car before and afters are the key to this.

Talking about comparing to other cars....mine sits 2nd in world for stock turbo M2 n55 times.

Did you read anything I wrote? Absolutely none of my claim his car doesn't make 75hp more than the 93Oct tune is a blind guess.

And yes, trap times are useless in comparing vehicles, especially user modified vehicles in different locations and conditions, because there are too many variables. Standardized trap tests with vehicles running the same conditions, yes. That's a fine metric. But unstandardized anecdotal forum member times, no.

People using trap times to gauge vehicle performance isn't an argument that justifies it as a good measurement. People also use beauty to gauge the quality of a woman as a potential mate. Doesn't mean she make a good wife and mother. Just because others use a metric to gauge something doesn't mean it's a good metric to gauge something by.