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      08-17-2020, 07:53 PM   #1
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Carbon ceramic brakes: why (not) getting the 2NK option (M-CCB) ?

I'm on the fence with the CCB option. I go from one side to the other daily. I'd like to hear from current owners and those planning to make the purchase.

My own interest has zero to do with brake performance. I'm interested if they provide a different driving feel, and the potential weight savings. I believe that vehicles equipped with CCB have the potential to be 140lbs lighter than the M2C. M2CS starts off 50lbs lighter than the comp, save another 50lbs with CCB, and another 40lbs with a battery change.
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      08-17-2020, 08:09 PM   #2
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For me it's a must have option on this car, if I am unable to spec the allocation my dealer gets and it comes with steel I'm out.
Why?
Brake feel, ceramic's are shockingly powerful during regular driving, we are talking big toe dose all your braking.
Steelie guy don't get your panties in a knot, your brakes are great but not as great and weigh 55 lbs more.
I'm not worried about tracking, CCBs will tolerate moderate tracking and I have a dedicated track car so if I get a CS I doubt I'll ever track it.

Weight, 55 lbs, both unsprung and rotational with the majority on the front axle, it hard to get weight off the front axle. I'm betting that will be noticeable.

Low dust, what BMW owner doesn't get frustrated by OEM brake pad dust, I know I know do you want a car that stops well or can you tolerate a hell storm or tenacious dust. Better solution go CCB.

Lastly it's a unique performance option on the CS that makes it special and lighter, it completes the package, just through in a anti gravity battery and you have significantly lighter M2
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      08-18-2020, 10:51 AM   #3
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Dave you've heard my thoughts before and I'm strongly in the steel camp, not sure if you need me to rehash any of it, but happy to participate in the discussion where useful. Maybe I'll learn something. The risk and costs still rule it out for me.
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      08-18-2020, 11:11 AM   #4
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My wife made a good point. She's crafty. Tells me to get whatever is going to make me happy, but follows it up with logic. Like...Do you think this is going to be the end point car for you, or will would you rather put that money towards something more focused later? It's hard to argue with spending money to make a heavy car lighter vs just adding a lighter sports car later. She also doesn't believe I'll hold on to this car long term, and she could have another point.
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      08-18-2020, 11:13 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
Lastly it's a unique performance option on the CS that makes it special and lighter, it completes the package, just through in a anti gravity battery and you have significantly lighter M2
This is the part I understand the most. Either set of brakes will be great but this car is unique because of things like the CCB option,
I'm leaning towards having them.
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      08-18-2020, 11:27 AM   #6
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This is the part I understand the most. Either set of brakes will be great but this car is unique because of things like the CCB option,
I'm leaning towards having them.

For what it's worth around this, when I was shopping I looked at an M4 GTS, and I decided I didn't want to buy one in significant part BECAUSE of the CCB's.

If the values get depressed on the CS over time, there are few people that are going to want to deal with the cost and risks associated with them at this price point. Think about it - you buy a used car for 50K and are staring at a 15-20k brake job? No thanks!
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      08-18-2020, 11:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
My wife made a good point. She's crafty. Tells me to get whatever is going to make me happy, but follows it up with logic. Like...Do you think this is going to be the end point car for you, or will would you rather put that money towards something more focused later? It's hard to argue with spending money to make a heavy car lighter vs just adding a lighter sports car later. She also doesn't believe I'll hold on to this car long term, and she could have another point.
That is a great point, and fits a bit with my situation. This is a fun car, occasional track car. Part of it's allure is being able to do track "touring" where I can comfortably and reliabily drive it across the country, do a track day, drive to another state, do a track day, and then drive on home. I collect track stickers as a "thing". It's my experience/fun sort of deal, and the CS is a perfect car for that. When I'm actually looking to driver hard, improve skills, go 9/10's or more at tracks closer to home, I have a dedicated car for that. I'd rather have money left over from my car funds to dedicate into that than dump even more into the CS.
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      08-18-2020, 11:31 AM   #8
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As long as you don't track your car a bunch and you aren't worried about the upfront cost then they seem like a good buy. They add lightness, they are unique to this model, they have a distinctive color which is cool and you will likely get most of your money out of them at resell time.
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      08-18-2020, 11:42 AM   #9
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As long as you don't track your car a bunch and you aren't worried about the upfront cost then they seem like a good buy. They add lightness, they are unique to this model, they have a distinctive color which is cool and you will likely get most of your money out of them at resell time.
I disagree on getting most of your money back on them. BMW offers $0 for the option on trade. I think it limits your buyer pool due to the fear of replacement cost. There will be buyers that want the CCB option, but I don't think they want to pay for it. I was stunned at how few cars my dealership sells with CCB. Just be careful if thinking of equipping them because you think you'll get it back. My SA told me it's an immediate 8k hit in depreciation on top of normal depreciation. People who lease cars seem to get them.

If you plan to hold the car for 100k miles or more and not track it, then it starts to make more sense from a financial standpoint. CCM rotors are less expensive than BMW replacement CCB and the cost should come down more over time.

With that said I've put 25k miles on my car in 3 yrs. Using the 100k figure that would be 12yrs of ownership in order to start realizing the return, but also gives plenty of time to squirrel away replacement money. I feel certain that I can commit to 3yrs of ownership and maybe 5, but 12yrs is a long time.
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      08-18-2020, 12:05 PM   #10
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Fear is blown way out of proportion. If you had a need for new rotors and don't want to spend the 11000$ for the entire CCB retrofit kit that includes 4 rotors 4 calipers front and rear pads, backing plates and master cylinder. You can just opt for steel rotors as they are a direct fit swap.

And keep in mind Dave that while your family may be in the car adding weight they are not un sprung nor rotational 🏁
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      08-18-2020, 12:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I disagree on getting most of your money back on them. BMW offers $0 for the option on trade. I think it limits your buyer pool due to the fear of replacement cost. There will be buyers that want the CCB option, but I don't think they want to pay for it. I was stunned at how few cars my dealership sells with CCB. Just be careful if thinking of equipping them because you think you'll get it back. My SA told me it's an immediate 8k hit in depreciation on top of normal depreciation. People who lease cars seem to get them.

If you plan to hold the car for 100k miles or more and not track it, then it starts to make more sense from a financial standpoint. CCM rotors are less expensive than BMW replacement CCB and the cost should come down more over time.

With that said I've put 25k miles on my car in 3 yrs. Using the 100k figure that would be 12yrs of ownership in order to start realizing the return, but also gives plenty of time to squirrel away replacement money. I feel certain that I can commit to 3yrs of ownership and maybe 5, but 12yrs is a long time.
This is great information to know that there is an additional depreciation hit on cars with CCBS on top of normal depreciation. I have also read how CCBS are more fragile, etc. That would have me worry during every drive.
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      08-18-2020, 12:35 PM   #12
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I'm probably not going to do it for a few reasons.

First I think you would need to drive the same car with and without the CCB's back to back to notice any difference. I don't think that I'm likely to get the car with the steel brakes and from the get-go think they feel heavy.

Cost. Upfront and replacement later. Furthermore, if I track the car it seems that aftermarket options are better (steel or otherwise) that don't come with the price tag or the amount of worry that the CCB's would give me.

Yellow calipers. At the end of the day I just don't like them.

The only reason to get them as far as my use is concerned is the lack of brake dust. That would be nice, but I'll ceramic coat my wheels and be on my way.
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      08-18-2020, 12:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegge View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I disagree on getting most of your money back on them. BMW offers $0 for the option on trade. I think it limits your buyer pool due to the fear of replacement cost. There will be buyers that want the CCB option, but I don't think they want to pay for it. I was stunned at how few cars my dealership sells with CCB. Just be careful if thinking of equipping them because you think you'll get it back. My SA told me it's an immediate 8k hit in depreciation on top of normal depreciation. People who lease cars seem to get them.

If you plan to hold the car for 100k miles or more and not track it, then it starts to make more sense from a financial standpoint. CCM rotors are less expensive than BMW replacement CCB and the cost should come down more over time.

With that said I've put 25k miles on my car in 3 yrs. Using the 100k figure that would be 12yrs of ownership in order to start realizing the return, but also gives plenty of time to squirrel away replacement money. I feel certain that I can commit to 3yrs of ownership and maybe 5, but 12yrs is a long time.
This is great information to know that there is an additional depreciation hit on cars with CCBS on top of normal depreciation. I have also read how CCBS are more fragile, etc. That would have me worry during every drive.
Out of curiosity I did some trade in pricing checks for 1-3 year used M4s on Edmunds, which frankly I've only had dealers come in below during negotiations. The CCB option was worth about 2.5 - 4.5k to the estimated value of the car in their calculator.
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      08-18-2020, 12:54 PM   #14
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Off topic but in an effort to shed weight (Like the CCB discussion) does anyone know if the carbon driveshaft from the F80 M3/M4 would fit in the M2?

Some info here which sites a 40% weight reduction. Not sure if that includes the loss of the carrier bearing and associated hardware: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=921523

That and a Lithium battery would shed some weight for much less than the cost of CCB's (and yes, these are not unsprung weight...)
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      08-18-2020, 01:28 PM   #15
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Does anyone know the cost to do a brake job on a CCB? Or are you just guessing based on what others are cost(BMW, Porsche, etc)
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      08-18-2020, 01:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhall1957 View Post
Does anyone know the cost to do a brake job on a CCB? Or are you just guessing based on what others are cost(BMW, Porsche, etc)
Dedicated thread: here ("CCB Maintenance Costs").

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1#post20592611:
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Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
This just in! Just got a call from my Service guy...

My M4 needs both pads and rotors for front AND rear. Its $9000 for front rotors and pads and $7700 for rear rotors and pads.

So $16,700 for both ends fully done. ...and I don't even have 4000 miles on the car yet! (OK... OK... so most of those miles were on the track...)

Anyway, the front left weighed in at 7356g with a min stamped weight of 7215g. I think I remember reading the min allowable weight was based on a 1000g allowable loss, that means my fronts had about 14% remaining.

The rear right weighed in at 5802g out of an allowable 5734g. If the allowable loss on the rears is 1000g like the fronts, then I have only 6.8% left on the rears. This may not be the case though as the rear rotors are a bit lighter than the fronts...

Anyway... That's the poop!
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      08-18-2020, 01:52 PM   #17
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Well if reading that thread doesn't scare you off CCB's if you do any track work at all, I don't know what will. Not to mention buying a used car with CCB's....
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      08-18-2020, 02:36 PM   #18
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Re-thinking...
Mine will be a long term keeper so it will be Steel for me!

Group wisdom never fails!
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      08-18-2020, 02:47 PM   #19
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I didn't read all 7 pages of that link but the guy in the main part was misinformed on his need for rotors, by the numbers stated he was well within the service life of his rotors, keep in mind BMW intends the rotor steel or ceramic is suitable for pad replacement as long as it is above min spec at time of pad replacement, knowing that rotors may drop under spec during life of replacement pads has been considered by the engineers that developed the spec.
And the consumable mass is approximately 200 grams per rotor

How that guy went through 4 sets of pads in 4000 miles is shocking, I've got a GTS customer with 20 plus thousand miles and several track days and still on first set of pads

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      08-18-2020, 03:42 PM   #20
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I suspect the technology improvements with time are similar for Porsche and BMW. The latest gen of PCCB discs do seem to fare better than the last gen. Racing brake is also an option for aftermarket CCM rotors made by surface transforms. I believe it's still about 12k for four corners. A set of these, in my opinion, are nice because of the very reasonable refurbishment cost.

If hell bent on CCB rotors, then the factory option is highly subsidized by BMW.

There's likely not much stopping someone from getting some CCM rotors for the front and getting some two piece rotors for the rears and bias with pad selection. Gets the weight off the nose for about 5k.
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      08-18-2020, 04:08 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
I didn't read all 7 pages of that link but the guy in the main part was misinformed on his need for rotors, by the numbers stated he was well within the service life of his rotors, keep in mind BMW intends the rotor steel or ceramic is suitable for pad replacement as long as it is above min spec at time of pad replacement, knowing that rotors may drop under spec during life of replacement pads has been considered by the engineers that developed the spec.
And the consumable mass is approximately 200 grams per rotor

How that guy went through 4 sets of pads in 4000 miles is shocking, I've got a GTS customer with 20 plus thousand miles and several track days and still on first set of pads[IMG][/IMG]
Right - the but the dealership was the one who told him he needed new parts, and that can happen to any of us, and we wouldn't have the time or resources necessarily to dig through it like he did.
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      08-18-2020, 05:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
For me it's a must have option on this car, if I am unable to spec the allocation my dealer gets and it comes with steel I'm out.
Why?
Brake feel, ceramic's are shockingly powerful during regular driving, we are talking big toe dose all your braking.
This is a bad reason, IMO. They really aren't "shockingly powerful" in regular use. If you are confusing BMW's overboosted brake pedal with stopping power, then yes.

If you actually want a ridiculously touchy brake pedal, then you want the M2C 2NH steel brakes. I have driven the both M2C and the CCBs on M3 and M4, and there is more bite vs pedal input on the 2NH steel brakes. The CCB have more bite than the older F8x blue brakes, but again, I am not sure this is even a good thing as it makes it harder to modulate.

The CCBs have legitimate benefits, but this isn't really one of them.
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