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      08-13-2020, 10:52 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I wouldn't say it is driving skill, but rather seat time in the car. The factory drivers get to do many many laps to try to get the ultimate best. For the Sport Auto Supertest, the driver gets one warm up lap and one flying lap in the tested car, that's it.
100%. It's the difference between someone who spent years and maybe 10's of thousands of miles in & developing a car and knows its intricacies vs a great driven who can drive the pants off a car but not quite to the same extent as the former.

Also, the N'Ring did get faster in the last year or so since they repaved some of the track, so realistically whichever way you want to skin it, if comparing before and after, the older cars would either be a couple seconds faster, or the new cars a couple second slower to account for that to make it more apples to apple there.
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      08-13-2020, 10:56 AM   #90
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The posted time is laughable, what's so special about 7:42??
The new Porsche Panamera Turbo, a 4-door sedan, posted 7:29:81!

FFS, BMW, is this the best you can do??
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      08-13-2020, 01:19 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
The posted time is laughable, what's so special about 7:42??
The new Porsche Panamera Turbo, a 4-door sedan, posted 7:29:81!

FFS, BMW, is this the best you can do??
It's sounds about right for this segment of vehicles:
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      08-13-2020, 01:25 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
The posted time is laughable, what's so special about 7:42??
The new Porsche Panamera Turbo, a 4-door sedan, posted 7:29:81!

FFS, BMW, is this the best you can do??
Different class of cars....with a HUGE price differential to go with it.
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      08-13-2020, 01:45 PM   #93
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Ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I wouldn't say it is driving skill, but rather seat time in the car. The factory drivers get to do many many laps to try to get the ultimate best. For the Sport Auto Supertest, the driver gets one warm up lap and one flying lap in the tested car, that's it.
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      08-13-2020, 03:25 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdub486 View Post
CanAut I see that Sport Auto hasn't tested an m3/4 CS but the prior past showed a time of 7:35 from BMW for the m3/4 CS. If the m2 CS is only down on power by around 10bhp, I guess the difference comes down to the larger rubber on the m4 cs?
Yes they have and achieved a 7:42 with an M4cs, which about on par with the M2cs. They noted that the M4cs was tested on a rather hot day which hampered its lap time and the 'ring has also since been significantly re-paved (many bumps removed) which made it a few seconds faster. So it is not a direct comparision. I however expect the M4cs and M2cs to be fairly close in terms of performance.
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      08-13-2020, 04:05 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
In NL/Eu it's not irl. About 35kgs.

1620-1595kg

Even if it was 75kg in theory already on a 1600kg car....

It's nothing irl.
-I have blue brakes and manual seats....

But if I have the chance I'm going to drive @Romo's new M2CS within a few weeks and get back to you

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
It probably does.
Aerodynamics and it probably weighs more than an M4CS too

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According to AMS weight as tested (full tank):
M2C 1,630kg
M4cs 1,609kg
M2cs 1,588kg
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      08-13-2020, 04:15 PM   #96
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Cracks me up when people compare faster heavier cars to lighter slower cars. If you like quick highway pulls that's fine, if you like a nimble car that's fine too. Heavy cars around town at regular speeds are dull. I bet the M5 is great on the hwy though. A comfy rocket.
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      08-13-2020, 04:52 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Cracks me up when people compare faster heavier cars to lighter slower cars. If you like quick highway pulls that's fine, if you like a nimble car that's fine too. Heavy cars around town at regular speeds are dull. I bet the M5 is great on the hwy though. A comfy rocket.
I guess it all depends on what you're used to and how you drive too. Most cars are pretty heavy these days, given the added safety they need to incorporate, heavy OPF filters, then you add the tech weight, bigger wheels and tires and you end up with some hefty curb weights.
Hard to make a blanket statement about what is heavy vs what is not, but to me, a light car by current day standards would need to be below 3300 lbs.
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      08-13-2020, 07:04 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftkeylife View Post
I guess it all depends on what you're used to and how you drive too. Most cars are pretty heavy these days, given the added safety they need to incorporate, heavy OPF filters, then you add the tech weight, bigger wheels and tires and you end up with some hefty curb weights.
Hard to make a blanket statement about what is heavy vs what is not, but to me, a light car by current day standards would need to be below 3300 lbs.
The E36 had a listed curb weight of 3340.. and that was 22+ years ago at this point... And the E46 was 3415. So it's not like the M2 is all that fat in comparison after all these years if the CS weighed in actual as listed above at 3500. 718 GT4 is 3200 lbs, and the GTS 4.0 at 3166. Miata for lighweight with even the third gen sitting at only 2500...
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      08-14-2020, 12:42 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
The posted time is laughable, what's so special about 7:42??
The new Porsche Panamera Turbo, a 4-door sedan, posted 7:29:81!

FFS, BMW, is this the best you can do??
There is at minimum a $75,000 difference in price between the two cars... I'm pretty sure that is something that needs to be taken into account.
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      08-14-2020, 03:46 AM   #100
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The class record holders...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/a...nitive-rundown

And 'the list' for those interested. (CS lap not added yet)...

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife
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      08-14-2020, 06:30 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
According to AMS weight as tested (full tank):
M2C 1,630kg
M4cs 1,609kg
M2cs 1,588kg

42kgs difference lol and mine has the manual seats so 35kgs is not way off.

Cheers
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      08-14-2020, 06:56 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
42kgs difference lol and mine has the manual seats so 35kgs is not way off.

Cheers
Robin
Yes, it's funny because lots of chatter about it needing to be 100lbs lighter. It's costly but 42kg is 92.5 lbs. Throw in a lightweight battery to bring it to 130lb reduction.
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      08-14-2020, 07:38 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
The E36 had a listed curb weight of 3340.. and that was 22+ years ago at this point... And the E46 was 3415. So it's not like the M2 is all that fat in comparison after all these years if the CS weighed in actual as listed above at 3500. 718 GT4 is 3200 lbs, and the GTS 4.0 at 3166. Miata for lighweight with even the third gen sitting at only 2500...
Yea the 718 GT4 is around 3100-3200 depending on options. About 30 lbs of that is the new OPF filters fitted into the OEM over axel pipes.

The e36/e46 were never very light cars, and the e92 and f8x have hit the scales in some specs close to 3700 lbs. The M2 certainly is quite heavy despite a relatively small footprint at 3500-36XX lbs depending on spec - again, a good amount of that weight is likely new safety, wider wheels/tires.

Yea the Miata isnt quite as light as it once was. Even the Alfa 4C is about 2300-2400 in the US while in the EU is under 2K lbs.
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      08-14-2020, 11:02 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
The E36 had a listed curb weight of 3340.. and that was 22+ years ago at this point... And the E46 was 3415. So it's not like the M2 is all that fat in comparison after all these years if the CS weighed in actual as listed above at 3500. 718 GT4 is 3200 lbs, and the GTS 4.0 at 3166. Miata for lighweight with even the third gen sitting at only 2500...
That was the Euro E36.

The US-spec E36 M3 was listed at 3219lbs with a 5sp manual. 300lbs over 20+ years isn't a huge amount if you look at it from one perspective. I think the Boxster/Caymans gained a similar amount in the intervening time (200-300lbs). Still, 3,500lbs with 450BHP is heavy on track.
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      08-14-2020, 02:00 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
The E36 had a listed curb weight of 3340.. and that was 22+ years ago at this point... And the E46 was 3415. So it's not like the M2 is all that fat in comparison after all these years if the CS weighed in actual as listed above at 3500. 718 GT4 is 3200 lbs, and the GTS 4.0 at 3166. Miata for lighweight with even the third gen sitting at only 2500...
That was the Euro E36.
The US-spec E36 M3 was listed at 3219lbs with a 5sp manual. 300lbs over 20+ years isn't a huge amount if you look at it from one perspective. I think the Boxster/Caymans gained a similar amount in the intervening time (200-300lbs). Still, 3,500lbs with 450BHP is heavy on track.
Some perspective (EURO-spec):
  • E46 M3 (6MT) (2001) + E82 1M (6MT) (2011) + F87 M2 (6MT) (2015):
    1,495kg / 3296lbs unladen | 1,570kg / 3461lbs DIN/EU;
  • F87 M2C (6MT) (2018) + F87 M2 CS (6MT) (2019):
    1,550kg / 3417lbs unladen | 1,625kg / 3583lbs DIN/EU
DIN/EU = 75kg / 165lbs are added for 1 driver & luggage.

Reposting a comment from the past:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
On a final note: a EURO-spec base M2 6MT weighs 1495 kg (unladen) (see the specs here); for a word of caution about unrealistic weight reduction expectations, read what BMW M engineer Jürgen Schwenker replied in a Spring 2011 interview regarding the 1M (see here or here):
"Q: Would it not have been possible to reduce the weight of the BMW 1 Series M Coupé to closer to 1,400 kilos instead of the 1,570 kilos achieved? After all, a number of body parts had to be redeveloped anyway. What would have been the additional cost for the customer if the 1,400 kg target had been reached ?
A: It is unrealistic to expect a weight reduction of 170 kilos on an existing basic vehicle. The M3 CSL and M3 GTS show where the reasonable limits lie. It would be necessary to develop a completely new car from scratch – which would, of course, also mean a completely different price scale. We were determined to offer a real BMW M that would also allow newcomers to have some fun with the strongest letter in the world. That’s why we are choosing to go with intelligent lightweight construction methods, e.g. light wheels and specific avoidance of insulating mats. The chassis of the BMW 1 Series M Coupé also helps optimise weight. Both the two-joint front axle, as well as the five-link rear axle of the BMW 1 Series M Coupé are made almost completely from aluminium. Tubular stabilisers, axle guides made from forged aluminium and aluminium shock absorbers complete the lightweight concept for the wheel suspension. The weight of the BMW 1 Series M Coupé is precisely the same as that of the previous generation of the BMW M3, with comparable output and much higher torque. The vehicle weighs 1,495kg (DIN kerb weight) (with 90% full fuel tank without driver and luggage); the 1,570 kg specified are the EU standard weight (including 75 kg for driver and luggage)."
Of course BMW can still shave off some weight here and there with light-weight materials and by deleting some creature comforts, but they can't fundamentally rebuild the car and cannot make production cost and sales price prohibitively high. In the end, the main purpose remains to make profits and, hence, to find customers who are prepared to pay for a car positioned in a pretty competitive market segment featuring customers easily (s)hopping between brands.
On a general note, beware about official weight figures from the past: rules for car weight figures have been tightened. In the past most high performance car manufacturers perfected the art of listing the lowest weight possible with car configurations that almost no customer chose, for low weight bragging rights purposes. Regulations forced the car industry to indicate more realistic figures as regards car weight, fuel consumption, range and CO2 emissions.

For a good example, see here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Remember Andreas Preuninger recently trying to talk his way out in interviews when tackling the topic of the 80kg weight increase - on paper - of the 718 GT4 (2019) compared to the 981 GT4 (2015) (1420 kg vs 1340 kg), emphasizing that it's only about 30kg extra rather than 80kg extra.
See from 13:28 to 15:21 in this video (comparing spec sheets: "it's deceiving, deceiving").
Fair enough, but that implies that the 1340kg figure quoted by Porsche back in 2015 for the bare-bones 981 GT4 was actually not representative for GT4 cars sold 'in real life' and would be around 1390kg when weighed with nowadays standards.
Last June, in the Sport Auto interview, AP also disclosed that for 'delete' features "the take-rate is at maximum 2%": see from 12:51 to 13:25 in this video.
So though the 1340 kg figure may be technically true for the 981 GT4 and back then the car could have been ordered that way, but that won't be the usual GT4 sold 'in real life' back then.
Good thing that regulations force car manufacturers to provide figures (weight, fuel consumption, range, emissions) that are closer to 'real life'.
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      08-14-2020, 02:05 PM   #106
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That was the Euro E36.

The US-spec E36 M3 was listed at 3219lbs with a 5sp manual. 300lbs over 20+ years isn't a huge amount if you look at it from one perspective. I think the Boxster/Caymans gained a similar amount in the intervening time (200-300lbs). Still, 3,500lbs with 450BHP is heavy on track.
True. But pretty light compared to the track monster that the ZL1 is so it's all relative. Would be interesting to compare center of gravity and unsprung weights between M generations though as that makes a huge impact. Also of interesting note, the M2 is ~8% heavier and runs about 8% more section width on tire than the E36.
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      08-14-2020, 02:23 PM   #107
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True. But pretty light compared to the track monster that the ZL1 is so it's all relative. Would be interesting to compare center of gravity and unsprung weights between M generations though as that makes a huge impact. Also of interesting note, the M2 is ~8% heavier and runs about 8% more section width on tire than the E36.
You bring up a point in here that has me question whether weight is the metric for which we should gather all the salt? Can heavy cars feel nimble? I stand in the "no it cannot" and "heavy track monsters require a track to be fun." camps.

My miata was fun "go kart" feeling. Was it more to do with the size or was it the weight. Both? It felt like it was on rails. Arguably if you add enough grip to a heavy car it will take corners quickly as well. My f-type feels very large and not nimble, but if I toss it into a corner it holds. It's just not very confidence inspiring. Would a 3500lb miata still be fun due to it's size?

Is weight not the issue but the distribution of weight, and center of mass? Would a small 4000lb car with a low center of mass and well distributed weight feel nimble/fun/small? Think small heavy electric car.
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      08-14-2020, 02:34 PM   #108
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You bring up a point in here that has me question whether weight is the metric for which we should gather all the salt? Can heavy cars feel nimble? I stand in the "no it cannot" and "heavy track monsters require a track to be fun." camps.

My miata was fun "go kart" feeling. Was it more to do with the size or was it the weight. Both? It felt like it was on rails. Arguably if you add enough grip to a heavy car it will take corners quickly as well. My f-type feels very large and not nimble, but if I toss it into a corner it holds. It's just not very confidence inspiring. Would a 3500lb miata still be fun due to it's size?

Is weight not the issue but the distribution of weight, and center of mass? Would a small 4000lb car with a low center of mass and well distributed weight feel nimble/fun/small? Think small heavy electric car.
I've gotten to hot lap, track, or race in various forms: a Miata Cup car, Skip Barber Formula, E36 M3, F30 335, Coyote kart, Mazda Protege MP3, new NSX, Mclaren 570, Huracan, MP4-12C, Gallardo Superleggera, R8 V10, 981 Cayman GTS, Nissan GTR, Ferrari 458, F430 Scuderia, 991 GT3 RS, Aston DBS, AMG C63S, and a couple others I can't recall.

The most fun out those - Miata Cup, 570S, Huracan, and Skippy Formula. The 570 and Huracan never felt heavy and the turn in for both was amazing and confidence inspiring. So I think it is all relative, and I don't think weight is really the be all end all, but it is MUCH easier to make a lighter car feel more fun and have more approachable limits - especially at affordable prices. I never felt like a better driver, or more confident in what I was doing than in that Miata though. So size or something certainly matters.
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      08-14-2020, 02:54 PM   #109
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I've gotten to hot lap, track, or race in various forms: a Miata Cup car, Skip Barber Formula, E36 M3, F30 335, Coyote kart, Mazda Protege MP3, new NSX, Mclaren 570, Huracan, MP4-12C, Gallardo Superleggera, R8 V10, 981 Cayman GTS, Nissan GTR, Ferrari 458, F430 Scuderia, 991 GT3 RS, Aston DBS, AMG C63S, and a couple others I can't recall.

The most fun out those - Miata Cup, 570S, Huracan, and Skippy Formula. The 570 and Huracan never felt heavy and the turn in for both was amazing and confidence inspiring. So I think it is all relative, and I don't think weight is really the be all end all, but it is MUCH easier to make a lighter car feel more fun and have more approachable limits - especially at affordable prices. I never felt like a better driver, or more confident in what I was doing than in that Miata though. So size or something certainly matters.
Great feedback. I enjoyed the Huracan as well. (1553 kg for reference from the interweb). . The miatas are almost telepathic when it comes to providing feedback to the driver.
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      08-14-2020, 03:38 PM   #110
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Great feedback. I enjoyed the Huracan as well. (1553 kg for reference from the interweb). . The miatas are almost telepathic when it comes to providing feedback to the driver.
And providing road and wind noise. But i loved it!
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