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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > Supra Fuel Pump in OG m2..FINALLY!!!!

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      11-04-2019, 05:02 PM   #45
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Iīve modeled the two plates in tinker cad to get a feeling of how to start position and mark. Feel free to have a look



https://www.tinkercad.com/things/bcs...vUCis8tN5NEhE=
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      11-06-2019, 01:38 PM   #46
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a how-to install video sure would be nice.
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      11-08-2019, 08:44 AM   #47
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Some pictures of how far I have gotten this far
Two pictures of the nudges and cutting that is needed on the pump:


A movie of it:
https://youtu.be/AYCLlr2kv0g

Picture of the pipe that needs to be bent. It is the one to the bottom of the hpfp in the picture and it was quite hard to bend due to bending/ clearance of pipe, and the pipe being very stiff.



I dismantled the pipe and spent a good 45 minutes fiddeling with it before I was ok with it. It now looks like this:


Time to put everything back during the weekend...
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      11-08-2019, 05:11 PM   #48
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Looks good! Did you take your car for a spin?
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      11-13-2019, 03:23 PM   #49
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Iíll be doing the normal B58 pump (provided I can get it for a good price) - but it should need to have the bracket trimmed - correct?
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      11-14-2019, 02:14 AM   #50
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Yes, its the same trimming as the B58 Supra needed on the original b58. I think there are some pictures in this thread of a trimmed one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
Iíll be doing the normal B58 pump (provided I can get it for a good price) - but it should need to have the bracket trimmed - correct?
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      11-14-2019, 10:38 AM   #51
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hopefully this will yield good results...far as i can tell from my searches the original b58 hpfp was 200bar and the new z4 m40i is suppose to be 350bar. i'm assuming the supra hpfp is the same the the z4 m40i.
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      11-14-2019, 10:51 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavouz View Post
Yes, its the same trimming as the B58 Supra needed on the original b58. I think there are some pictures in this thread of a trimmed one.
Did you get your car back running?
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      11-14-2019, 03:39 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemjinX2 View Post
hopefully this will yield good results...far as i can tell from my searches the original b58 hpfp was 200bar and the new z4 m40i is suppose to be 350bar. i'm assuming the supra hpfp is the same the the z4 m40i.
What is the stock pump?
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      11-14-2019, 07:28 PM   #54
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What's with all the "fuel pressure issues/Injectors etc..."

Just put a good quality fuel pressure regulator on the thing.

https://www.turbosmart.com/product-c...re-regulators/
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      11-16-2019, 11:27 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wattens View Post
What's with all the "fuel pressure issues/Injectors etc..."

Just put a good quality fuel pressure regulator on the thing.

https://www.turbosmart.com/product-c...re-regulators/
You have to have enough pressure before it needs to be regulated. The stock system doesn’t generate enough pressure at the flows needed for 400+ whp setups.

A regulator won’t do anything to help this issue.
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      11-17-2019, 06:02 AM   #56
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Does anyone know the percentual increase of fuel flow of the B58 Evo5 pump in comparison to the standard M2 N55 pump?
What I've read is, that the Evo6 is able to produce even more than a XDi for example.
How much more handles the Evo5?
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      11-24-2019, 12:55 PM   #57
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Forgive me if this is a dumb question. I am having some difficulty understanding the interplay of octane, IATs, and fuelling.

I am planning to flash BM3, stage 2. I would like to use the 93 map, but I understand that the gas in Ontario (even the 94) is not really great quality. I will be upgrading my intercooler, which should help keep timing up. But evidently that is not enough. I know some people turn to WMI, but I would rather not. Would an upgraded fuel pump like this help prevent timing being pulled in my situation? Or is the issue strictly one of octane and IATS?

Thanks!
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      11-24-2019, 06:31 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digimattic View Post
Forgive me if this is a dumb question. I am having some difficulty understanding the interplay of octane, IATs, and fuelling.

I am planning to flash BM3, stage 2. I would like to use the 93 map, but I understand that the gas in Ontario (even the 94) is not really great quality. I will be upgrading my intercooler, which should help keep timing up. But evidently that is not enough. I know some people turn to WMI, but I would rather not. Would an upgraded fuel pump like this help prevent timing being pulled in my situation? Or is the issue strictly one of octane and IATS?

Thanks!
I canít speak with first hand knowledge of Ontario 94, but if youíve heard that there are issues from other users, then you might be right. The only way to know for sure is to take a look at logs.

Over the last few days Iíve been doing a lot of research on this topic, and have made a few posts on it in this thread: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1669225

Itís a complex topic, but you already know that the higher the IAT and the higher the boost pressure, the greater the chance of pre-ignition, and timing will be pulled to compensate. To some extent, adding more fuel can be done to cool the combustion, but this has a negative impact on power, so you may gain timing, but may not gain any power... assuming your fuel pump can keep up.

Oxygenated fuels like Ethanol in E85 can be blended and these improve the situation in 2 ways. 1) they lower the intake charge temperature as they change state from liquid to gas 2) they raise octane. More Ethanol volume than gasoline is required to achieve a stoichiometric burn, so this puts strain on the fuel pump as well.

Upgrading the fuel pump will allow you to run a stronger Ethanol blend and allow the DME headroom to pump in more fuel if needed to cool the charge, so it will help, but eventually youíll run into octane limitations.

Octane in the US and Canada is rated in AKI, with the formula (R+M)/2 with R being RON and M being MON. Elsewhere in the world fuel is quoted as only the RON value.

I was able to locate the UK standards for ĎRegularí and ĎSuperí unleaded fuels as follows:
Regular: 85 min MON; 95 min RON = 90 AKI; Sensitivity 10 (Sensitivity is RON-MON)
Super: 86 min MON; 97 min RON = 91.5 AKI; Sensitivity 11
And the CA standard:
Regular: 87 min AKI; 7.5 min Sensitivity = 83.25 MON; 90.75 RON
High Octane: 91 min AKI; 7.5 min Sensitivity = 87.25 MON; 94.75 RON
Recent research is showing that modern engines are operating in a state which is said to be Ďbeyond RONí, meaning that the intake charge is at a higher pressure for a given temperature than the RON test or a lower temperature than the RON test for the same pressure. This is either because of intercooled forced induction (higher pressure for a similar temperature to RON), or because of efficient intake gas cooling from technologies like exhaust gas recirculating and just better airflow. This research is showing that the RON rating is not only more important than MON, but that a higher sensitivity (and therefore a lower MON) is also beneficial.

Taking a look at the standards above should show you that both the RON and MON values required for the CA Regular gas standard are lower than the UK, and that the sensitivity is lower as well. CA High Octane pump gas isnít even as good as UK Regular - the RON is nearly as good, but the MON is higher so the sensitivity is lower, making the fuel worse for our modern engines.

WMI changes things massively... It cools the intake gases a lot... much more than an intercooler could hope to do, and increases octane. Cooling the intake gases moves the engine characteristics even more away from ĎRONí, so higher RON and higher sensitivity become even more beneficial. The increase in octane and cooling from WMI reduce the need for octane so much though that you can run CA pump gas with a high octane tune.

Thatís probably more information that you wanted, but thatís it in a nutshell.
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      11-24-2019, 10:03 PM   #59
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I've seen a lot of ppl say that an upgraded fuel pump is needed to run e85, but I think some people don't understand why...

The reason is that e85 is less fuel efficient. Meaning you need to pump more fuel into the engine to produce the same power. This is the only reason you need an upgraded pump to run e85.

I guess technically you can use the stock pump for e85, but you'd have to re-tune. Which would probably make less power. Since e85 is 20-30% less fuel efficient, I guess you'd make 20-30% less power. But e85 is also much less resistant to knock and run cooler, so i dunno. Maybe 10-20% less power than stock. I dunno. Would be interesting to see what the OEM pump can do w/ e85.
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      11-26-2019, 09:33 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Thatís probably more information that you wanted, but thatís it in a nutshell.
Not at all too much. I appreciate the information. From what I have found online, Petro Canada's Ultra94 is 101.5 RON which would work out to a MON of 86.5 and a sensitivity of 15. That should mean it's quite good per your analysis, no?

Having said that, it apparently contains up to 10% Ethanol, so perhaps the issues that people are running into are, in fact, fuelling related in line with Anthony1s' post below yours?

Your point is taken that I would need to log in order to figure things out for sure. However, as I am trying to plan out the upgrades to the car it would be great to start eliminating variables in advance rather than having to react to situations as they arise. If the fuel pump upgrade could help make reliable, consistent power, I'd be all for it.
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      11-26-2019, 11:28 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digimattic View Post
Not at all too much. I appreciate the information. From what I have found online, Petro Canada's Ultra94 is 101.5 RON which would work out to a MON of 86.5 and a sensitivity of 15. That should mean it's quite good per your analysis, no?

Having said that, it apparently contains up to 10% Ethanol, so perhaps the issues that people are running into are, in fact, fuelling related in line with Anthony1s' post below yours?

Your point is taken that I would need to log in order to figure things out for sure. However, as I am trying to plan out the upgrades to the car it would be great to start eliminating variables in advance rather than having to react to situations as they arise. If the fuel pump upgrade could help make reliable, consistent power, I'd be all for it.
So, if I'm understanding your question correctly... you are asking if an upgraded fuel pump will alleviate any knock issues you might run into due to low octane fuel? And that this is on a M2 without a turbo upgrade. It's a good question.

My armchair scientist knowledge is telling me that it won't be a great solution. Pulling timing is an octane issue, not an issue with fuel starvation. Although, you can retune to dump more fuel into the cylinders... decrease the air:fuel ratio. Then the unburnt fuel will have a slight cooling effect. So in that sense, I think it may work, but it would require a custom tune to add more fuel. It may also come with the negative side effects of running too rich though. Like fouling your spark plugs.

Upgrading the fuel pump is really done to prevent fuel starvation and provide more fuel so a upgraded turbo can run in it's efficiency range.
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      11-27-2019, 12:36 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
So, if I'm understanding your question correctly... you are asking if an upgraded fuel pump will alleviate any knock issues you might run into due to low octane fuel? And that this is on a M2 without a turbo upgrade. It's a good question.

My armchair scientist knowledge is telling me that it won't be a great solution. Pulling timing is an octane issue, not an issue with fuel starvation. Although, you can retune to dump more fuel into the cylinders... decrease the air:fuel ratio. Then the unburnt fuel will have a slight cooling effect. So in that sense, I think it may work, but it would require a custom tune to add more fuel. It may also come with the negative side effects of running too rich though. Like fouling your spark plugs.

Upgrading the fuel pump is really done to prevent fuel starvation and provide more fuel so a upgraded turbo can run in it's efficiency range.
I think you've got it, though - due to my limited understanding of all the issues - I guess my question is really more general: I'd like to run the BM3 Stage 2 93 map, on an M2 with a stock turbo. From the discussions here, it seems people have issues with the engine's timing being pulled and will fall back on the 91 octane map. Are all timing issues related to knock? Is lack of fueling an issue in such circumstances?

My goal is just to be able to make consistent power. I also do not want to deal with the headache of WMI and the added complexity in order to achieve that.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the thoughtful replies.
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      11-27-2019, 05:13 PM   #63
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Actually the situation is fairly simple... The DME in our cars has to be able to adapt to different fuel density because gas around the world differs a little, and as you know, most of the fuel in the US regardless of state is E10.

You can safely run Exx blends until you hit the limits of your HPFP and you will see reduced timing pull and no loss of power.

With my CA fuel I managed to get up to about E20 with my HPFP and it did improve things but only so that I could use the 91 AKI map, and just barely. More E85 to achieve a higher blend would have helped further, but my HPFP couldn't cope, so I stopped trying and initially switched to the 91 ACN map.

If Exx blends are possible with the standard 91 and 93 AKI OTS BM3 maps, you may be wondering why an E30 map exists at all? The reason for this is that E30 should be a pretty high octane fuel, and that should allow you to run higher timing and boost than the regular maps. The E30 map is effectively a more aggressive map for even high octane than 93 AKI.

Upgrading your HPFP with a stock turbo and US pump gas probably won't get you any benefits at all. If you were to upgrade the HPFP AND add E85, it will allow you to push the stock turbo a little harder, but not much really because it's already at the edge of its efficiency.

Without knowing about the gas in Toronto, one thing I will say is that the 93 AKI
Stage 2 BM3 OTS map is pretty impressive once you've not got timing pull. I saw and felt a pretty significant difference to performance once I added WMI and my timing was corrected.

You might think that I was going for big power by adding WMI, but really all I was trying to do was to get consistent performance from the 93 AKI Stage 2 OTS map, similar to those who actually have decent fuel. I might be able to get a custom map to add further timing and boost now that I'm running WMI, but I'd probably rather go for a Stage 2 turbo next rather than push things too far.
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      12-16-2019, 01:12 AM   #64
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Just a short question:
Where does the connector has to sit?

Is this correct or just the other way round?
Do I have to twist it 180į?

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      12-16-2019, 08:47 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andi-M2 View Post
Just a short question:
Where does the connector has to sit?

Is this correct or just the other way round?
Do I have to twist it 180į?

Pretty sure it's 180, you will need to trim the intake manifold to clear the connector.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=316

I'd message Thomas directly if you have questions. Good luck and let us know how it works, I have the same pump but waiting until spring to change it out.
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      12-16-2019, 02:33 PM   #66
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Other way. And cover has to be trimmed.


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