BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 Competition Model > S55 teardown (English Captions available)

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-11-2019, 07:45 PM   #23
switlikbob
Chuggin' Along
switlikbob's Avatar
United_States
231
Rep
510
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB ///M2
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southern NJ

iTrader: (0)

See, BMW does do strange and unthinkable things to their engines. I'm happy for the clarifications here guys / gals.

One thing is for sure...

New rod bearings replaced at a 70k mile interval are a shit-ton cheaper than new pistons and valves.
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2019, 07:57 PM   #24
switlikbob
Chuggin' Along
switlikbob's Avatar
United_States
231
Rep
510
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB ///M2
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southern NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupes View Post
N55 sounds awesome!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7a6aDdjRXzkpDBw6A
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2019, 08:14 PM   #25
Poochie
Luxury at the redline :)
Poochie's Avatar
United_States
1574
Rep
1,812
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by switlikbob View Post
Where did you get this info regarding forged internals?
The M2's N55 does have forged internals but its a carry-over from the M235i N55 built.

The M2 N55 has unique pistons and an aluminum oil pan/suction from the S55, a turbo from a 335i and a electric blowoff valve from the N20.


https://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesfo...l-training.pdf

Page 23:
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2019, 08:16 PM   #26
The Silver Slammer
Private First Class
The Silver Slammer's Avatar
31
Rep
130
Posts

Drives: 2011 BMW 335i E90
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Evans, GA

iTrader: (0)

This explains why N55s have had a tendency to wear out rod bearings faster than one would expect, the sump pickup is different and as they said in the video sometimes it sucks in air because it only picks up from one place as apposed to three. Oils starvation over a long period of time. Moral of the story, keep a lot of oil in your pan, never let it get low, change it often and keep an eye on it. Too bad they didnt think about that when they decided to delete the dipstick...hmm
__________________
2011 335I, E90, AT, Sport Package, FBO, Eibach 1" Lowering Kit w/ Koni Orange. MHD, 68k miles 2nd owner
2003 330XI, MT, bone stock, 160k miles
1988 325I Coupe, MT - Retired, 280k miles
Appreciate 5
      03-11-2019, 08:27 PM   #27
switlikbob
Chuggin' Along
switlikbob's Avatar
United_States
231
Rep
510
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB ///M2
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southern NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Silver Slammer View Post
This explains why N55s have had a tendency to wear out rod bearings faster than one would expect, the sump pickup is different and as they said in the video sometimes it sucks in air because it only picks up from one place as apposed to three. Oils starvation over a long period of time. Moral of the story, keep a lot of oil in your pan, never let it get low, change it often and keep an eye on it. Too bad they didnt think about that when they decided to delete the dipstick...hmm
Although this is unacceptable in my mind, I believe the "air sucking" will only happen under extreme situations like tracking the car, forcing the oil to the opposite side of the pan where the pickup is NOT located. IIRC, this is not the first time BMW has engineered a motor that has these 2 issues (rod bearing and oil pickup).

One day they'll get it right. To get around these issues, the rod bearings will have to be replaced as preventative maintenance. Some vendor will create a baffled oil pan that will help with the pickup issue, or you can install a dry sump solution, both of which will only be needed for the hardcore racing situations. In that case, I think an S55 would be better to track.
Appreciate 1
Dackelone8497.00

      03-11-2019, 08:46 PM   #28
The Silver Slammer
Private First Class
The Silver Slammer's Avatar
31
Rep
130
Posts

Drives: 2011 BMW 335i E90
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Evans, GA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by switlikbob View Post
Although this is unacceptable in my mind, I believe the "air sucking" will only happen under extreme situations like tracking the car, forcing the oil to the opposite side of the pan where the pickup is NOT located. IIRC, this is not the first time BMW has engineered a motor that has these 2 issues (rod bearing and oil pickup).

One day they'll get it right. To get around these issues, the rod bearings will have to be replaced as preventative maintenance. Some vendor will create a baffled oil pan that will help with the pickup issue, or you can install a dry sump solution, both of which will only be needed for the hardcore racing situations. In that case, I think an S55 would be better to track.
I believe they have already got around it with the B58. Toyota had part in the design, testing and reliability development in that engine. It should is much better than all of its inline 6 predecessors.
__________________
2011 335I, E90, AT, Sport Package, FBO, Eibach 1" Lowering Kit w/ Koni Orange. MHD, 68k miles 2nd owner
2003 330XI, MT, bone stock, 160k miles
1988 325I Coupe, MT - Retired, 280k miles
Appreciate 1
      03-11-2019, 09:44 PM   #29
chris719
Colonel
1419
Rep
2,148
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Silver Slammer View Post
I believe they have already got around it with the B58. Toyota had part in the design, testing and reliability development in that engine. It should is much better than all of its inline 6 predecessors.
Where did you see they had any design input? Itís not like they had any choice for the Supra. They donít have an inline 6, so itís basically take it or leave it. The more you look at the Supra the less it seems like Toyota did anything but sheet metal and rubber stamp it.
Appreciate 3
akkando2305.50
Dackelone8497.00
ZHPsedan116.00

      03-11-2019, 09:47 PM   #30
chris719
Colonel
1419
Rep
2,148
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsGary View Post
hehe, hopefully this crankhub thing gets a recall or something
I wouldnít hold your breath. The crank hub spinning is pretty rare in stock cars. I donít have data but it seems at least an order of magnitude less likely than S65 rod bearing failures. Given that they never recalled S85 or S65, I doubt youíll see it here.
Appreciate 1
cntzl3923.50

      03-11-2019, 10:02 PM   #31
switlikbob
Chuggin' Along
switlikbob's Avatar
United_States
231
Rep
510
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB ///M2
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Southern NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I wouldn’t hold your breath. The crank hub spinning is pretty rare in stock cars. I don’t have data but it seems at least an order of magnitude less likely than S65 rod bearing failures. Given that they never recalled S85 or S65, I doubt you’ll see it here.
There are a few solutions out there that supposedly bulletproof the crank hub. I don't remember which vendors, but maximumpsi comes to mind. I'm guessing that anyone who wants 600whp+ out of their s55 is replacing the stock crank hub.

EDIT:

Looks like N54 & N55 engine owners should be scared too, according to Mr. Radowski's website:

https://maximumpsi.com/products/maxi...it-s55-n55-n54

And another, but Gintani doesn't mention N series engines:

http://gintani.com/product/gintani-f...-hub-solution/

Last edited by switlikbob; 03-11-2019 at 10:09 PM.
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2019, 10:11 PM   #32
akkando
Brigadier General
2306
Rep
3,163
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 LBB DCT
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by switlikbob View Post
Although this is unacceptable in my mind, I believe the "air sucking" will only happen under extreme situations like tracking the car, forcing the oil to the opposite side of the pan where the pickup is NOT located. IIRC, this is not the first time BMW has engineered a motor that has these 2 issues (rod bearing and oil pickup).

One day they'll get it right. To get around these issues, the rod bearings will have to be replaced as preventative maintenance. Some vendor will create a baffled oil pan that will help with the pickup issue, or you can install a dry sump solution, both of which will only be needed for the hardcore racing situations. In that case, I think an S55 would be better to track.
I believe the M2 N55 has the S55 oil pickup internals to prevent oil starvation.

Last edited by akkando; 03-11-2019 at 10:20 PM.
Appreciate 2
gsrbri392.00
qnet457.50

      03-11-2019, 10:39 PM   #33
chris719
Colonel
1419
Rep
2,148
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by switlikbob View Post
There are a few solutions out there that supposedly bulletproof the crank hub. I don't remember which vendors, but maximumpsi comes to mind. I'm guessing that anyone who wants 600whp+ out of their s55 is replacing the stock crank hub.

EDIT:

Looks like N54 & N55 engine owners should be scared too, according to Mr. Radowski's website:

https://maximumpsi.com/products/maxi...it-s55-n55-n54

And another, but Gintani doesn't mention N series engines:

http://gintani.com/product/gintani-f...-hub-solution/
For whatever reason it seems less likely to happen in N54 and N55 cars. Maybe because they make less power stock, but there could be other factors that contribute.
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2019, 10:44 PM   #34
The Silver Slammer
Private First Class
The Silver Slammer's Avatar
31
Rep
130
Posts

Drives: 2011 BMW 335i E90
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Evans, GA

iTrader: (0)

Toyota was involved in this project way more than people think.

__________________
2011 335I, E90, AT, Sport Package, FBO, Eibach 1" Lowering Kit w/ Koni Orange. MHD, 68k miles 2nd owner
2003 330XI, MT, bone stock, 160k miles
1988 325I Coupe, MT - Retired, 280k miles
Appreciate 4
chris7191419.00
clee1982116.00
heavyD^2371.00
TemjinX2259.50

      03-11-2019, 10:52 PM   #35
akkando
Brigadier General
2306
Rep
3,163
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 LBB DCT
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
For whatever reason it seems less likely to happen in N54 and N55 cars. Maybe because they make less power stock, but there could be other factors that contribute.
People speculate it's the vibrations at the higher redline on the S55. Who knows.
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2019, 10:57 PM   #36
chris719
Colonel
1419
Rep
2,148
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Silver Slammer View Post
I donít think that video is anything but eyewash. There are inconsistencies in that video vs what has been written in interviews with Tada. The Z4 and Supra are on BMWs CLAR chassis and there isnít a lot of hard evidence of any Toyota contributions. B series engines were already in development, maybe they gave their 2 cents or maybe they are just trying to look like they didnít pay BMW to rebadge a Z4.
Appreciate 2
ZHPsedan116.00
SYT_Shadow2810.00

      03-11-2019, 11:00 PM   #37
The Silver Slammer
Private First Class
The Silver Slammer's Avatar
31
Rep
130
Posts

Drives: 2011 BMW 335i E90
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Evans, GA

iTrader: (0)

So they made all that up in this video?
__________________
2011 335I, E90, AT, Sport Package, FBO, Eibach 1" Lowering Kit w/ Koni Orange. MHD, 68k miles 2nd owner
2003 330XI, MT, bone stock, 160k miles
1988 325I Coupe, MT - Retired, 280k miles
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2019, 11:24 PM   #38
chris719
Colonel
1419
Rep
2,148
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Silver Slammer View Post
So they made all that up in this video?
Big on marketing, short on details and doesnít align with some other written articles. Maybe these guys are right but weíll never know. The results certainly look like all Toyota did was write a check to BMW.

Fact is, itís built on a BMW chassis and engine that were both already planned and nearing completion. There is nothing Toyota I can find about this car other than sheet metal and the startup logo on the BMW iDrive. My Mazda 3 at least had FoMoCo stamped all over the place .

This is a really small volume sports car anyway, itís not exactly a Camry that needs to go 250k miles.

Maybe BMWs process really is this deficient to where Toyota could improve the reliability with analyses that BMW should already have been doing... guess time will tell.

I mean, they keep repeating that BMW and Toyota went their separate ways but Iíd like to know how. The firmware is all Bosch/BMW. Entire chassis appears to
be the same, struts look to be from BMW bin. Maybe spring rates are different. The interior is identical with some cheaper materials but all still BMW parts. What could they possibly have tuned themselves, in isolation? BMW even did road testing of both simultaneously.

Last edited by chris719; 03-11-2019 at 11:40 PM.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2019, 12:53 AM   #39
G4BR13L
Captain
G4BR13L's Avatar
Belgium
325
Rep
868
Posts

Drives: BMW M4
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Lummen (Belgium)

iTrader: (0)

There are two problems related to the crank hub: first there have been cases of the crank bolt to back out due to vibrations which can be resolved with a crank bolt capture, and the 2nd problem is the fact that it is not a one piece hub and that in some occassion the sprockets spin which can be resolved with for example the Gintani kit.

The solution to the aforementioned is a combination of both solutions. If you are paying someone to have it done you are looking at a major cost of approximately $5000 due to extensive labour costs, could take a tech 30 to 40 hours for the work.

The F8x produced after December 2015 have a new bedplate design and friction plated but that did not resolve the problem.

The number of cases are still very rare...
Appreciate 1
nino790.00

      03-12-2019, 01:31 AM   #40
Excezz
New Member
3
Rep
7
Posts

Drives: M2
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sg

iTrader: (0)

https://www.bmwblog.com/2016/07/28/bmw-made-n55-even-better-m2/



F87 N55 is still reliable no?
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2019, 02:32 AM   #41
mfurse
Private First Class
Australia
50
Rep
115
Posts

Drives: BMW F80 M3 2016 LCI
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Melbourne, VIC

iTrader: (0)

"Complex machine has unforeseen reliability issue" is nothing new. Thank god for the enthusiasts and after market companies that can come up with fixes to problems years after the manufacturer's stopped warranting them.

Rod bearings and throttle actuators in S65, water pumps and carbon build up in N54, vanos and solenoid issues in S54... Even the W204 AMG C63 had a head gasket bolt problem and excess wear on the camshaft lobe and valve lifter and the engine wouldn't restart if it was "too hot" after a spirited drive. Just don't buy a TVR if you like to sleep easy

I'm going to get extended engine warranty on the off chance I might get a Spun Crank Hub. Otherwise drive it as it was designed to be driven
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2019, 03:19 AM   #42
ASBSECU E93
Know's a guy that know's a guy...
ASBSECU E93's Avatar
5340
Rep
1,854
Posts

Drives: 2010 335d; 2008 135i
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by switlikbob View Post
There are a few solutions out there that supposedly bulletproof the crank hub. I don't remember which vendors, but maximumpsi comes to mind. I'm guessing that anyone who wants 600whp+ out of their s55 is replacing the stock crank hub.

EDIT:

Looks like N54 & N55 engine owners should be scared too, according to Mr. Radowski's website:

https://maximumpsi.com/products/maxi...it-s55-n55-n54

And another, but Gintani doesn't mention N series engines:

http://gintani.com/product/gintani-f...-hub-solution/
For whatever reason it seems less likely to happen in N54 and N55 cars. Maybe because they make less power stock, but there could be other factors that contribute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by switlikbob View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I wouldn't hold your breath. The crank hub spinning is pretty rare in stock cars. I don't have data but it seems at least an order of magnitude less likely than S65 rod bearing failures. Given that they never recalled S85 or S65, I doubt you'll see it here.
There are a few solutions out there that supposedly bulletproof the crank hub. I don't remember which vendors, but maximumpsi comes to mind. I'm guessing that anyone who wants 600whp+ out of their s55 is replacing the stock crank hub.

EDIT:

Looks like N54 & N55 engine owners should be scared too, according to Mr. Radowski's website:

https://maximumpsi.com/products/maxi...it-s55-n55-n54

And another, but Gintani doesn't mention N series engines:

http://gintani.com/product/gintani-f...-hub-solution/
I am using the MAX PSI hub solution for my N54 build. Pushing ~ 35 psi and making 850 to the wheel required a better solution.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
She stood there. Pointed a finger at me and laughed at me. That damn bitch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
Poop shit, shit and poop. I'm mildly angry now.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2019, 03:35 AM   #43
chris719
Colonel
1419
Rep
2,148
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfurse View Post
"Complex machine has unforeseen reliability issue" is nothing new. Thank god for the enthusiasts and after market companies that can come up with fixes to problems years after the manufacturer's stopped warranting them.

Rod bearings and throttle actuators in S65, water pumps and carbon build up in N54, vanos and solenoid issues in S54... Even the W204 AMG C63 had a head gasket bolt problem and excess wear on the camshaft lobe and valve lifter and the engine wouldn't restart if it was "too hot" after a spirited drive. Just don't buy a TVR if you like to sleep easy

I'm going to get extended engine warranty on the off chance I might get a Spun Crank Hub. Otherwise drive it as it was designed to be driven
Itís a little embarrassing that some of these even happen with the tools available to the engineers today. The rod bearings in particular, and to repeat it...

Vanos is at least something relatively complicated and has changed a lot over time. One would think they would know in simulation if the engine is going to eat rod bearings.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2019, 04:59 AM   #44
trey100
Colonel
trey100's Avatar
614
Rep
2,085
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New York

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by switlikbob View Post
Where did you get this info regarding forged internals?
The M2's N55 does have forged internals but its a carry-over from the M235i N55 built.

The M2 N55 has unique pistons and an aluminum oil pan/suction from the S55, a turbo from a 335i and a electric blowoff valve from the N20.


https://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesfo...l-training.pdf

Page 23:
Off topic but first time I noticed that they mention the S55 also has an "overboost" most (406+37)?

Also, MDM puts everything in comfort.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:32 PM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST