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      12-05-2019, 10:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by M2PDX View Post
No they aren't.

Catted downpipe are legal in 49 states. They have cats. In California, it depends on CARB regulations.
Actually they are illegal here. You are not allowed to change the manufacturers smog system. One forum member bought one and went to an independent shop to get it installed. The shop refused and threatened to turn him in to the authorities.
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      12-06-2019, 02:09 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Santabella View Post
hey guys

Which M2 should I get?

1. MSRP $71730
Black
DCT $1,200
Carbon fiber exaust tips $1,515
M performance exhaust $4,710

2 MSRP $69,525
Blue
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Moonroof $1,050
Carbon fiber exaust tips $1,515
M performance exhaust $4,710

3. MSRP $62,485
Black
Manual

I am getting 3.3% off msrp. is this fair enough? (Northwest area)
Hey Santabella, I would go with your option 2... only because I don't like black paint (too hard to keep them clean).
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      12-06-2019, 02:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
Actually they are illegal here. You are not allowed to change the manufacturers smog system. One forum member bought one and went to an independent shop to get it installed. The shop refused and threatened to turn him in to the authorities.
A mechanic threatening to turn in a customer to the "authorities" for a downpipe installation? This sounds like the Twilight Zone 😁.
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      12-06-2019, 08:41 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by AlpsRider View Post
A mechanic threatening to turn in a customer to the "authorities" for a downpipe installation? This sounds like the Twilight Zone 😁.
Here is the thread: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1552298
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      12-06-2019, 11:37 AM   #27
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heading in to drive the DCT and the Manual later today. I'm 85% leaning towards DCT because wife doesnt know how to drive manual... but I've been a MT boi all my life. so we'll see. After I decide, I'll put an order in for a euro delivery, or see if I can get a lower price on a euro delivery from BMW NW or BMW Bellevue.
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      12-06-2019, 12:04 PM   #28
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Please help keep the manual alive!
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      12-06-2019, 12:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by DanG View Post
Bad idea. Downpipes are illegal in Washington state.
My Service rep at Seattle BMW knows all about my downpipe, and other mods.
NO problem with any of them.
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      12-06-2019, 12:23 PM   #30
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Please help keep the manual alive!
Amen 🙌

If you're going auto, look towards a Audi or Mercedes..
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      12-06-2019, 12:39 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2PDX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
Bad idea. Downpipes are illegal in Washington state.
No they aren't.

Catted downpipe are legal in 49 states. They have cats. In California, it depends on CARB regulations.

Emissions regulations in all of North America tightly restrict the amount of sulfur permitted in motor fuel and by extension, exhaust fumes. If you're using an aftermarket, high-flow downpipe to circumvent these restrictions, wouldn't common sense dictate that it's illegal?

You'll never get fined if you never get caught, which is entirely possible in many places and situations. However, The 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments prohibit private individuals from installing "converter replacement pipes" on their own vehicles that doesn't meet EPA certification.

For the record, no high-flow aftermarket catalytic converter reseller currently have a EPA certification.


https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...hsysrepair.pdf
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      12-07-2019, 09:26 AM   #32
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BMW Seattle has 5 in stock. In Seattle traffic I went for DCT. DCT also has the advantage of being faster and getting better gas mileage than a 6 speed.
You mean the 6 speed is faster...

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/
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      12-07-2019, 12:23 PM   #33
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Not what BMW claims.
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      12-07-2019, 01:04 PM   #34
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Not what BMW claims.
Their test drivers are just not good at shifting!
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      12-08-2019, 11:17 AM   #35
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# 2 - manual and mperformance exhaust is all you need moonroof... give or take.
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      12-08-2019, 09:42 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Emissions regulations in all of North America tightly restrict the amount of sulfur permitted in motor fuel and by extension, exhaust fumes. If you're using an aftermarket, high-flow downpipe to circumvent these restrictions, wouldn't common sense dictate that it's illegal?

You'll never get fined if you never get caught, which is entirely possible in many places and situations. However, The 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments prohibit private individuals from installing "converter replacement pipes" on their own vehicles that doesn't meet EPA certification.

For the record, no high-flow aftermarket catalytic converter reseller currently have a EPA certification.
That's not correct. The statute you cite prohibits parts that exceed federal limits. As long as the cat in a catted downpipe (and actually as part of the entire exhaust/catalytic converter system) meets this standard, it's not illegal. The sum of all of the parts in the exhaust system are what collectively must meet the standards. The EPA delegates emissions controls to states for enforcement. States test for emissions (at the tailpipe or through the OBD port analysis), either at federal limits or - - in the case of California, etc. specific lower state limits. I've had 3 catted downpipes on 3 consecutive cars, and all have passed certification with flying colors.

Perhaps you are confused between a catted downpipe and a straight non-catted downpipe?
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      12-09-2019, 04:15 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2PDX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Emissions regulations in all of North America tightly restrict the amount of sulfur permitted in motor fuel and by extension, exhaust fumes. If you're using an aftermarket, high-flow downpipe to circumvent these restrictions, wouldn't common sense dictate that it's illegal?

You'll never get fined if you never get caught, which is entirely possible in many places and situations. However, The 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments prohibit private individuals from installing "converter replacement pipes" on their own vehicles that doesn't meet EPA certification.

For the record, no high-flow aftermarket catalytic converter reseller currently have a EPA certification.

rl]

That's not correct. The statute you cite prohibits parts that exceed federal limits. As long as the cat in a catted downpipe (and actually as part of the entire exhaust/catalytic converter system) meets this standard, it's not illegal. The sum of all of the parts in the exhaust system are what collectively must meet the standards. The EPA delegates emissions controls to states for enforcement. States test for emissions (at the tailpipe or through the OBD port analysis), either at federal limits or - - in the case of California, etc. specific lower state limits. I've had 3 catted downpipes on 3 consecutive cars, and all have passed certification with flying colors.

Perhaps you are confused between a catted downpipe and a straight non-catted downpipe?
I didn't confuse anything; I'm fully aware of the different is between a test-pipe and an aftermarket, high-flow catalytic converter.

On a federal level, interfering with a stock catalyst that's fully functioning is illegal. Plain and simple.

Now, emission regulations is enforced on a state level and depending how and if they enforce it, OB2 or physical inspection, you might be able to fly under the radar if your aftermarket cat doesn't throw a fault or they don't check for it.

If you add an aftermarket downpipe, that doesn't change the fact that you're using a device to go around the set standards for pollution per vehicle.

If such a defeat device was fully legal, all auto manufactures and companies like Dinan would jump at the chance to squeeze out a few more easy horses. BMW would have carbon fiber, M Performance sports downpipe for sale by now. Notice they don't?

I'll tell you what, link just one piece of evidence that a high-flow, aftermarket cat is legal and I'll chance my tune. Until then, let's agree to disagree.
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      12-09-2019, 01:53 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I didn't confuse anything; I'm fully aware of the different is between a test-pipe and an aftermarket, high-flow catalytic converter.

On a federal level, interfering with a stock catalyst that's fully functioning is illegal. Plain and simple.


If you add an aftermarket downpipe, that doesn't change the fact that you're using a device to go around the set standards for pollution per vehicle.

.

Neither of these statements is true.

As the earlier OP stated, it's the sum of the parts. If the emissions sytem as a whole, including the catted downpipe, as a part of the overall emissions system, meets federal standards for emissions, it's legal, plain and simple.

The ENFORCEMENT, as was pointed out earlier, is to ensure compliance. And as long as the catted downpipe maintains emissions within set state and federal limits, it's not illegal.

In either event, we all need to CALM DOWN!

Last edited by ktmM3; 12-09-2019 at 02:02 PM..
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      12-09-2019, 02:25 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I didn't confuse anything; I'm fully aware of the different is between a test-pipe and an aftermarket, high-flow catalytic converter.

On a federal level, interfering with a stock catalyst that's fully functioning is illegal. Plain and simple.


If you add an aftermarket downpipe, that doesn't change the fact that you're using a device to go around the set standards for pollution per vehicle.

.

Neither of these statements is true.

As the earlier OP stated, it's the sum of the parts. If the emissions sytem as a whole, including the catted downpipe, as a part of the overall emissions system, meets federal standards for emissions, it's legal, plain and simple.

The ENFORCEMENT, as was pointed out earlier, is to ensure compliance. And as long as the catted downpipe maintains emissions within set state and federal limits, it's not illegal.

In either event, we all need to CALM DOWN!

So I guess this is why auto manufactures are only allowed to sell "cat-back" exhausts that coincidently stop short at the catalyst, thus not interfere with it ..

Anything after the catalyst has nothing to do with emission compliance. Any and all piping after the cat is strictly for sound reduction only, NOT emissions.

Legally, you cannot decat or replace the catalytic converter with one that is less effective than the OEM one. The end.


CALM YOURSELF DOWN and find me some proof of anything you said.

It's all conjecture and a pointless attempt in justifying your illegal downpipe.

.
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      12-13-2019, 07:00 PM   #40
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I drove the white MT and the black DCT last week. Decided on the DCT. So I sat down to put in the euro delivery order with them and they wouldnt budge off of ED MSRP, so I walked. Bellevue said they would do ED mo problem so I’ll try them next, and I do have BMW Northwest waiting for an extra allocation to see if they can put an order together.

Just called BMW in Beaverton too. Just trying to find the best deal now...
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      12-13-2019, 07:27 PM   #41
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I drove the white MT and the black DCT last week. Decided on the DCT. So I sat down to put in the euro delivery order with them and they wouldnt budge off of ED MSRP, so I walked. Bellevue said they would do ED mo problem so I’ll try them next, and I do have BMW Northwest waiting for an extra allocation to see if they can put an order together.

Just called BMW in Beaverton too. Just trying to find the best deal now...
I think you will find it hard to get a discount on ED prices. Some dealer won’t even do ED because of the reduced margins.

Seattle BMW has seven M2Cs in stock. I am sure you can get a deal on one of them especially at the end of this month.
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      12-13-2019, 07:51 PM   #42
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I think you will find it hard to get a discount on ED prices. Some dealer won’t even do ED because of the reduced margins.

Seattle BMW has seven M2Cs in stock. I am sure you can get a deal on one of them especially at the end of this month.
Huh. I thought the ED MSRP had same margins. Since it’s MSRP.

They dont have 7 in stock, more like 3, for whatever reason their inventory system counts cars not delivered yet, and accounted for cars.

I’d prefer ED, overall. Havent done it before.

edit: just to add I was there an hour ago or so to attempt to sign ED order papers. thats why I mention the inventory.

Last edited by Tainen; 12-13-2019 at 08:03 PM..
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      12-14-2019, 09:28 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainen View Post
I drove the white MT and the black DCT last week. Decided on the DCT. So I sat down to put in the euro delivery order with them and they wouldnt budge off of ED MSRP, so I walked. Bellevue said they would do ED mo problem so I’ll try them next, and I do have BMW Northwest waiting for an extra allocation to see if they can put an order together.

Just called BMW in Beaverton too. Just trying to find the best deal now...
ED is a much lower profit on the car for the dealer - it also comes out of their allocation and so there is little incentive to even do ED for some dealers (and they won't do it on hot cars). Therefore, I would think MSRP is not a bad deal.
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      12-20-2019, 09:58 AM   #44
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ED is a much lower profit on the car for the dealer - it also comes out of their allocation and so there is little incentive to even do ED for some dealers (and they won't do it on hot cars). Therefore, I would think MSRP is not a bad deal.

managed to get 2% discount off ED MSRP by sticking it out, asking all dealerships within a couple of states, and then my closest dealership, after an e-mail from the GM and a respectful explanation of where I'm at, agreed to it.
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