[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Megator

How did you arrive at that number? (not that mine isn't a guess either)

According to Wiki an average manual shift is 0.5s and a DCT 0.1s so 3 shifts already saves you over a second. (yes I know that is not 100% correct as the car is still rolling while the clutch is out).

That's not the way it works on track.

My number is an informed estimate, not a guess. Hundreds of laps around the same track in equally equipped dct and 6mt E90's. Since I acquired the dct 2nd, had hoped it was more. It's tenths, not seconds.

Same sort of direct experience that informed me being one of the lone voices here suggesting that the pss were activated in the original M2 comp test detailed on pg 1. And that the difference between pss/ps4s and star spec cup 2 is ~1 second or less over one hot lap of a typical circuit.

Same track experience informs me again sharing that @ 90+ f ambient, the CS lap time is definitely 1-2 seconds short of its actual potential.

Take it or leave it. CS is clearly a quick little monster and a notable step ahead of the comp as an overall track package.

If you don't want to accept as valid -- Pobst ran the dct and manual 991.2 gt3 two tenths apart at Buttonwillow in a Motor Trend test. (Same day & test.)

[Megator]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

That's not the way it works on track.

My number is an informed estimate, not a guess. Hundreds of laps around the same track in equally equipped dct and 6mt E90's. Since I acquired the dct 2nd, had hoped it was more. It's tenths, not seconds.

Same sort of direct experience that informed me being one of the lone voices here suggesting that the pss were activated in the original M2 comp test detailed on pg 1. And that the difference between pss/ps4s and star spec cup 2 is ~1 second or less over one hot lap of a typical circuit.

Same track experience informs me again sharing that @ 90+ f ambient, the CS lap time is definitely 1-2 seconds short of its actual potential.

Take it or leave it. CS is clearly a quick little monster and a notable step ahead of the comp as an overall track package.

If you don't want to accept as valid -- Pobst ran the dct and manual 991.2 gt3 two tenths apart at Buttonwillow in a Motor Trend test. (Same day & test.)

Fair enough and thanks for the info. The M2 is my first DCT and the shifts feel much faster than what I could achieve manually. On track it keeps on the boil nicely compared to my previous Focus RS.

A fair test between the CS and Comp would be great. I am not so sure that the CS is that much better on track than the comp when both are equipped with the same tires, trans, brakes, and driver. Even less if the M2C is a stripper and the CS fully loaded.

[babym2]

all this work and track tests, and the type r and quadrifoglio still whoops it around the ring

[medphysdave]

The guilias are all over the place though. The QV doesn't really look any more special than the base. Looks great though. At least the M2 in every version looks special. I couldn't take myself seriously on any given day if I were stepping into a type-r. I don't care how fast it is on paper or the ring.

How fast if the QV on hockenheim?

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

The guilias are all over the place though. The QV doesn't really look any more special than the base. Looks great though. At least the M2 in every version looks special. I couldn't take myself seriously on any given day if I were stepping into a type-r. I don't care how fast it is on paper or the ring.

How fast if the QV on hockenheim?

QF or type r superior to the CS on track... people are delusional. Keep your deposit.

[medphysdave]

Civic Type r 2:02.8 on the GP course. I wouldn't call 7s slower superior. Maybe more fun?

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Civic Type r 2:02.8 on the GP course. I wouldn't call 7s slower superior. Maybe more fun?

Dave,

I think it's become a meme on this forum where if someone wants to troll the M2 community, they jump in and say, "Yeah, but the Civic Type R was faster around the Nurburgring."

There have been threads, for example, on how to remove the front reflectors or whatever, and then some troll would post "Who cares about the reflectors? Civic Type R is faster," and immediately there would be like a hundred responses where people would then earnestly point out how Honda wasn't running a production car, it had a roll cage, all sorts of deletes for weight savings, etc., etc., and then Artemis would have to come in with the ban hammer due to the name calling and death threats.

I think most everyone now knows that it's just trolling, any simple google search will return 15,482 articles pointing out how Honda perpetrated a fraud just for marketing purposes, and refuse to take the bait.

Gosh... I miss the good ol' days!

[No Boost]

Even with Cup 2s, the Type R is an 8 min+ car on the ‘ring in stock form. It just doesn’t have enough grunt to keep pace on the long straights. The CS will beat it by a half minute, same day/same driver.

[beMtroubleYou]

Originally Posted by PilotxERAU

I don’t get it. You can recreate this car safely and reliably for 20k less 🙄

How? Using original M-parts. The roof alone is 5k option. I dont remember what the bonnet is but CB brakes and seats you are pass 20k for sure.

Not counting in the 444hp tune and the 1 zone climate control. I am not arguing its very small differences I am saying there is still exclusivity to the badge CS.

I like it. I would love to have it.

But I am not paying for it. Its beyond my common sense.

[beMtroubleYou]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

Even with Cup 2s, the Type R is an 8 min+ car on the ‘ring in stock form. It just doesn’t have enough grunt to keep pace on the long straights. The CS will beat it by a half minute, same day/same driver.

98. Renault Megane RS Trophy R Laurent Hurgon 7:40.10 300 / 1307
142. BMW M2 Competition (F87) unknown 7:52.36 410 / 1609

Isnt Civic a 320hp / 1400kg car?

Time itself wont tell the whole story. Some times are on a private circut, some are from touristfahren. Unless there is a video (ehm Hurracan) thats uncut and timed every time should be taken with a grain of salt.

But Type-R could be as fast or faster then Megane RS. I mean 7:40 is a very respectable time.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Civic Type r 2:02.8 on the GP course. I wouldn't call 7s slower superior. Maybe more fun?

Not a fricking chance. Watch the CS hot lap. It'll keep your attention.

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

M2 Comp with Cup 2

Guys,

They tested the M2 Competition again but this time on Cup2. The result is 1.57,6 min, a 0.3s improvement over PSS tire (1.57,9 min). Apparently ambient temp should be warmer too (which eats up bit power), if the fact the driver's in short sleeved from the video is any indication.

[grinch]

only 0.3 seconds of improvement with sport cup. blue brakes ... I don't think the CS is almost 2 seconds faster with equal tires and brakes

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Megator

How did you arrive at that number? (not that mine isn't a guess either)

According to Wiki an average manual shift is 0.5s and a DCT 0.1s so 3 shifts already saves you over a second. (yes I know that is not 100% correct as the car is still rolling while the clutch is out).

That's not completely the way it works. Of course the 0.5s is very slow for a profoundly competent 6MT driver (i.e. anyone with drag racing experience to start with). However, you don't lose the difference in shift speeds in acceleration times since the car is still accelerating during the upshift (whether it be 6MT or DCT). Also the 6MT car has about a 1.5% power/weight advantage over the DCT car, so in-gear acceleration will always be faster in the 6MT.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

They tested the M2 Competition again but this time on Cup2. The result is 1.57,6 min, a 0.3s improvement over PSS tire (1.57,9 min). Apparently ambient temp should be warmer too (which eats up bit power), if the fact the driver's in short sleeved from the video is any indication.

Apart from the time difference because of the tires (PSS vs Cup 2): the M2 CS (1.55,8) featured M-DCT + M-CCB and went into 'limp mode' on its way to the finish due to low fuel. This M2C (1.57,6) featured manual gearbox + stock brakes. 'Low fuel' light flips on at lap time 01:08:40 (video: 01:18).

Let them pit the M2 CS against the M2 Competition in similar spec: M-DCT, same fuel load, M Driver's Package (stock on M2 CS), 2NH M Sport Brakes (stock on M2 CS), fresh Michelin Pilot Super Cup 2 tires (stock on M2 CS), 763M wheels (stock on M2 CS), same driving mode and driven immediately back-to-back by the same driver on the track.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Let them pit the M2 CS against the M2 Competition in similar spec: M-DCT, same fuel load, M Driver's Package (stock on M2 CS), 2NH M Sport Brakes (stock on M2 CS), fresh Michelin Pilot Super Cup 2 tires (stock on M2 CS), 763M wheels (stock on M2 CS), same driving mode and driven immediately back-to-back by the same driver on the track.

I'll run against the CS on its Cup2s with my RE-71Rs (255/275) on my M2C otherwise stock.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Apart from the time difference because of the tires (PSS vs Cup 2): the M2 CS (1.55,8) featured M-DCT + M-CCB and went into 'limp mode' on its way to the finish due to low fuel. This M2C (1.57,6) featured manual gearbox + stock brakes. 'Low fuel' light flips on at lap time 01:08:40 (video: 01:18).

Let them pit the M2 CS against the M2 Competition in similar spec: M-DCT, same fuel load, M Driver's Package (stock on M2 CS), 2NH M Sport Brakes (stock on M2 CS), fresh Michelin Pilot Super Cup 2 tires (stock on M2 CS), 763M wheels (stock on M2 CS), same driving mode and driven immediately back-to-back by the same driver on the track.

Low fuel light timing analysis?... Oh my lord, dude. You're reaching. So, a 1/2 gallon / 4 lb. disadvantage to the C.

Can we also add the CS dampers, carbon hood & roof, 39 bhp, splitter and gurney flap to the C, and just make it a CS vs. CS race instead??

Why are people so invested in the CS being no faster than the C?

You think they're asking too much for it, fine. Fair enough. But the combination of all upgrades very likely creates a faster, better driving, more visceral experience on both road and track.

CS is to C what a Z07 Grand Sport is to the Z51. No one questions the Grand Sport's superiority, but CS is all window dressing.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Why are people so invested in the CS being no faster than the C?

Where did you read that in my post ?

[diavliyo]

More videos sound ?

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Where did you read that in my post ?

I’d say implied in low fuel light timing analysis is bias for a particular outcome. The data associated with the Sport Auto tests demonstrate that the CS is, not at all surprisingly, a quicker car than the stock C.

Sure seems you’re looking to dismiss, or pick holes in their findings with a 4 lb. fuel load differential and the old, tired “but if you put parts a, b, and c on X model, it’d be just as fast” concept.

Since you seem inclined to see testing nuances, are you willing to acknowledge that at 90 Fahrenheit the CS is notably short of its ultimate lap time?

A 0.8 second gain puts it on par with a 718 GT4 at that track. There’s more than 0.8 seconds to be gained with optimal testing conditions. Why not promote the performance of the CS as compared to more costly rivals than reach for reasons or ways that it’s really no faster than a C?

[akkando]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Low fuel light timing analysis?... Oh my lord, dude. You're reaching. So, a 1/2 gallon / 4 lb. disadvantage to the C.

Can we also add the CS dampers, carbon hood & roof, 39 bhp, splitter and gurney flap to the C, and just make it a CS vs. CS race instead??

Why are people so invested in the CS being no faster than the C?

You think they're asking too much for it, fine. Fair enough. But the combination of all upgrades very likely creates a faster, better driving, more visceral experience on both road and track.

CS is to C what a Z07 Grand Sport is to the Z51. No one questions the Grand Sport's superiority, but CS is all window dressing.

I mean if a comp with matching tune for $500 and same tires and wheels gets the same time around the track, I think one might have to question the value of the CS. If that's the case it costs a tune and some wheels to match it. Tires are wear items so you have to pay for that anyway.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by akkando

I mean if a comp with matching tune for $500 and same tires and wheels gets the same time around the track, I think one might have to question the value of the CS. If that's the case it costs a tune and some wheels to match it. Tires are wear items so you have to pay for that anyway.

Fair enough, question away. That's an evaluation that anyone in the market can make. But in fairness, the same can be said for almost any performance car platform, not just the M2. The lesser version can be modded to match the performance of the more expensive "plus" model.

I'd argue that especially once a tune is involved, you're likely to lose track reliability. And over time the market always prefers the factory "plus" version as compared to the modified lesser form, but to each his own. I'm no stranger to modded M cars.