[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I wonder if it’d be hard to custom mount the CSF Race, S55, or other radiator in this fashion without an AC delete? Seems like it shouldn’t be too difficult?

OG Shark any insight here?

Originally Posted by F87source

If you're willing to completely change out the radiator mounts and get an s55 ac condenser core, then it should all be bolt on factory OEM parts.


However the problem is the intercooler. The intercooler must be of a design that sits in front of the radiator - like the er or arm intercooler. But the next problem is the end tank, the charge pipe connectors likely aren't wide enough to clear the radiator now.

Mounting should be reasonably feasible but I think like F87source said you are going to again run into some conflict with the piping needing some custom fab to get everything to connect. Opening up the exposed surface area of the radiator definitely the priority but I think this route like going to a top mount is still going to be pretty pricey. Think you might want to redo some shrouding as well promote better airflow or you might still have a bit of dead zone on the face of the coolers. Still might not be enough air though with the limited openings for that much surface area - might be a problem trying to direct it in all the directions you need it to go.

Side note on CSF vs d088 - I think they show the pretty much the same results because neither gets the air flow needed to do the job up to their potential. Need to open them up to full air to see which works better but that is a moot point until the fmic is out of the way.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Mounting should be reasonably feasible but I think like F87source said you are going to again run into some conflict with the piping needing some custom fab to get everything to connect. Opening up the exposed surface area of the radiator definitely the priority but I think this route like going to a top mount is still going to be pretty pricey. Think you might want to redo some shrouding as well promote better airflow or you might still have a bit of dead zone on the face of the coolers. Still might not be enough air though with the limited openings for that much surface area - might be a problem trying to direct it in all the directions you need it to go.

Side note on CSF vs d088 - I think they show the pretty much the same results because neither gets the air flow needed to do the job up to their potential. Need to open them up to full air to see which works better but that is a moot point until the fmic is out of the way.

I was also thinking about custom ducting with fiber glass, and using cardboard as a template, then try to employ an expansion profile (start small end up big) to promote an air speed decrease but I'm turn increase air pressure which should help push more mass flow through the radiators. But it won't be an easy project.


Another option is to just retrofit the s55 intercooler + radiator, but again expensive...

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by F87source

I was also thinking about custom ducting with fiber glass, and using cardboard as a template, then try to employ an expansion profile (start small end up big) to promote an air speed decrease but I'm turn increase air pressure which should help push more mass flow through the radiators. But it won't be an easy project.


Another option is to just retrofit the s55 intercooler + radiator, but again expensive...

Yeah pretty tight and keeping the air connected and moving how you want will be a bit tough with not much real estate to work with.

Getting ready to start on another cooling project with a company that can make anything & everything in coolers. We talked briefly about the top mount conversion on the N55. We know we can do it but we very much rigged it up just to make it work on our car (tie-down straps anyone ). To do it right and make it look good - we can definitely do it but it is going to require a significant investment and I’m not convinced that there would be enough interest for it too financially make sense. Fresh start with the R&D and then add in the prototyping and testing costs - I’m afraid it would push the sales price of the kits too far to make them appealing to enough people to make it all work. Once we get going on the other stuff going to sit down and dig into it a bit more - the numbers were very very rough so need to narrow that down. I personally want this too but just has to make sense for us to move on it.

[ZM2]

F87source OG Shark

Sounds like we’re back to the shortest/smallest IC possible that’s OK for daily driving and pairing it with WMI for IAT control while under load.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Yeah pretty tight and keeping the air connected and moving how you want will be a bit tough with not much real estate to work with.

Getting ready to start on another cooling project with a company that can make anything & everything in coolers. We talked briefly about the top mount conversion on the N55. We know we can do it but we very much rigged it up just to make it work on our car (tie-down straps anyone ). To do it right and make it look good - we can definitely do it but it is going to require a significant investment and I’m not convinced that there would be enough interest for it too financially make sense. Fresh start with the R&D and then add in the prototyping and testing costs - I’m afraid it would push the sales price of the kits too far to make them appealing to enough people to make it all work. Once we get going on the other stuff going to sit down and dig into it a bit more - the numbers were very very rough so need to narrow that down. I personally want this too but just has to make sense for us to move on it.

Soo. How much is it gonna us?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Yeah pretty tight and keeping the air connected and moving how you want will be a bit tough with not much real estate to work with.

Yup, if it was already tricky on aero parts like diffusers, it's even trickier on a radiator shroud - because you want the maximum expansion possible to duct air towards the radiator face. But that expansion has to happen in such a small area that the surface curve of the duct will be too steep and air flow will most likely separate from the surface of the duct before it ends - making it useless (and we likely don't even have rooms for vortex generators to help keep flow attachment either). Then the next problem is all the braces in the way which will cause massive blockages and losses, further complicating the air flow problem - because turbluent "lossy" air flow is bad for cooling,

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Getting ready to start on another cooling project with a company that can make anything & everything in coolers. We talked briefly about the top mount conversion on the N55. We know we can do it but we very much rigged it up just to make it work on our car (tie-down straps anyone ). To do it right and make it look good - we can definitely do it but it is going to require a significant investment and I’m not convinced that there would be enough interest for it too financially make sense. Fresh start with the R&D and then add in the prototyping and testing costs - I’m afraid it would push the sales price of the kits too far to make them appealing to enough people to make it all work. Once we get going on the other stuff going to sit down and dig into it a bit more - the numbers were very very rough so need to narrow that down. I personally want this too but just has to make sense for us to move on it.

Hopefully you guys can come up with something for us n55 guys (and keep it financially plausible, maybe you can try to use the current parts available - alot of n55 guys are able to completely fitup the s55 intercooler completely pnp, you just need to create the pipe from the turbo + radiator solutions which might also be pnp with the m2 s55 parts), you would literally have the lions share of the market, as that kit would out perform everything else currently available. If you need a pump controller this is the one I have been eyeing for a while, it can control the factory pierburg stuff and is very sophisticated for what it is: https://tecomotive.com/en/products/tinycwa.html



Also remember it's not only for the m2 guys, it is for all n55 guys - so hopefully it should be enough of a market to work on.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

F87source OG Shark

Sounds like we’re back to the shortest/smallest IC possible that’s OK for daily driving and pairing it with WMI for IAT control while under load.

Yes, that seems to be the case. If you run water injection (which I recommend over meth) you can also use distilled water ice cube to help get that water super cold.

So at this stage you can look at the: BMS intercooler, VRSF intercooler, and even the MAD intercooler (which looks to be the exact same as the BMS intercooler just painted black).



I would also look at ducting, if you have some time with some card board and some fiber glass you could do something like this:

[AmuroRay]

I already suggested the ER intercooler for the same reasons you’re pointing out. The empty space behind it can be used for another aux radiator - but something else:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ght=Arm&page=7

I remember this thread from 2 years ago where we discussed shrouding and even coolant temp (see last page)

One member noted a decrease in coolant temperature since installing the thin profile intercooler over a Wagner Evo 1, despite it being taller (and allegedly blocking the radiator more)

I’m guessing that the thinner profile allows more air to pass through to the radiator behind it. There is also the factor of the bottom portion of the ic is not directly touching the radiator - which means it’s also not transferring heat through conduction.

Finally, something like the Evo 3 is 7.5” deep, it could be pushing the puller fan away from the radiator - and it’s depth could be slowing/inhibiting airflow behind it.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I already suggested the ER intercooler for the same reasons you’re pointing out. The empty space behind it can be used for another aux radiator - but something else:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ght=Arm&page=7

I remember this thread from 2 years ago where we discussed shrouding and even coolant temp (see last page)

One member noted a decrease in coolant temperature since installing the thin profile intercooler over a Wagner Evo 1, despite it being taller (and allegedly blocking the radiator more)

I’m guessing that the thinner profile allows more air to pass through to the radiator behind it. There is also the factor of the bottom portion of the ic is not directly touching the radiator - which means it’s also not transferring heat through conduction.

Finally, something like the Evo 3 is 7.5” deep, it could be pushing the puller fan away from the radiator - and it’s depth could be slowing/inhibiting airflow behind it.

Here's the problem though, an aux radiator would need to be plumbed in series to the main radiator for it to be effective - because the parallel flow aux radiator setup on the m2 isn't really efficent - likely because it is only able to flow a small amount of fluid vs. the overall size of the main radiator (limited by its fitting size). So it would have to have massive inlets and outlets for it to flow in series with the main radiator, and then with this space constraint it likely will only be a single pass radiator. Also I am not even sure if you can buy something like this, it likely will have to be all custom - at which point an s55 radiator retrofit would be better. Next it would be extremely difficult to mount with the end tanks in the way.


Your idea is great, but I think at the end of the day it would be extremely difficult and cost quite a bit to do as well.




Interesting, maybe ZM2 should try an arm or ER intercooler (after going stock + water injection first to make sure air flow is indeed the issue). But technically the intercooler isn't supposed to touch the radiator. There should be a small air gap between the two. Even my BMS intercooler has a small gap.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Here's the problem though, an aux radiator would need to be plumbed in series to the main radiator for it to be effective - because the parallel flow aux radiator setup on the m2 isn't really efficent - likely because it is only able to flow a small amount of fluid vs. the overall size of the main radiator (limited by its fitting size). So it would have to have massive inlets and outlets for it to flow in series with the main radiator, and then with this space constraint it likely will only be a single pass radiator. Also I am not even sure if you can buy something like this, it likely will have to be all custom - at which point an s55 radiator retrofit would be better. Next it would be extremely difficult to mount with the end tanks in the way.


Your idea is great, but I think at the end of the day it would be extremely difficult and cost quite a bit to do as well.




Interesting, maybe ZM2 should try an arm or ER intercooler (after going stock + water injection first to make sure air flow is indeed the issue). But technically the intercooler isn't supposed to touch the radiator. There should be a small air gap between the two. Even my BMS intercooler has a small gap.

I could be wrong - I think you should read through the last 3 pages and give your thoughts.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I could be wrong - I think you should read through the last 3 pages and give your thoughts.

Ok let me look through it and get back to you guys. But it is a good idea to run something behind the intercooler, only problem is figment as it's quite tight behind the end tanks. Also I haven't seen an aux cooler with inlets and outlets big enough to not be restrictive.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Ok let me look through it and get back to you guys. But it is a good idea to run something behind the intercooler, only problem is figment as it's quite tight behind the end tanks. Also I haven't seen an aux cooler with inlets and outlets big enough to not be restrictive.

You can run a universal oil cooler as a radiator, just a thought. But maybe try turning down the torque on the turbo, and see if that works

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

You can run a universal oil cooler as a radiator, just a thought. But maybe try turning down the torque on the turbo, and see if that works

Yes you could, but not in series because the inlet and outlets are too small to not be restrictive.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by -Eidos

Soo. How much is it gonna us?

Ha yeah still going to vet it thoroughly and see what we can do. At the least I'm going to improve on what we have already done on my car as a part of the build I still want to do with it. Maybe if we don't do a "kit" we can still facilitate the one off bits and a parts list for the other stuff for you guys that want to go that way without having to go into a full blown production mode level.

Originally Posted by F87source

Yup, if it was already tricky on aero parts like diffusers, it's even trickier on a radiator shroud - because you want the maximum expansion possible to duct air towards the radiator face. But that expansion has to happen in such a small area that the surface curve of the duct will be too steep and air flow will most likely separate from the surface of the duct before it ends - making it useless (and we likely don't even have rooms for vortex generators to help keep flow attachment either). Then the next problem is all the braces in the way which will cause massive blockages and losses, further complicating the air flow problem - because turbluent "lossy" air flow is bad for cooling,


Hopefully you guys can come up with something for us n55 guys (and keep it financially plausible, maybe you can try to use the current parts available - alot of n55 guys are able to completely fitup the s55 intercooler completely pnp, you just need to create the pipe from the turbo + radiator solutions which might also be pnp with the m2 s55 parts), you would literally have the lions share of the market, as that kit would out perform everything else currently available. If you need a pump controller this is the one I have been eyeing for a while, it can control the factory pierburg stuff and is very sophisticated for what it is: https://tecomotive.com/en/products/tinycwa.html



Also remember it's not only for the m2 guys, it is for all n55 guys - so hopefully it should be enough of a market to work on.

Everything you mentioned is definitely in consideration and huge factors as part of the financial feasibility. The range from using as many existing parts all the way up to bespoke for everything - they all have the pluses & minuses. A big factor I have seen on the track with the S55 is that as improved as it is over the N55 you can still outrun the efficiency of the stock bits. It takes a power bump and pace for sure to do it - but at a point upgrading the cooling system on the S55 needs to happen. Before that it is not necessary to outright control peak temps from going too far - but does help keep them a bit more friendly. The oem tmic does a very good job vs most aftermarket but there are a couple that do better (Wagner & PWR/C&R). Certainly this is drop in level stuff - so can easily be decided on by the end user - but does it make sense for me to pursue bracketry for one vs the other (or even different options). Bunch of little stuff like that adds up. The radiator & heat exchangers are a different animal though. But does an improvement there really appeal that much vs the oem for the bulk of N55s? For you big HP guys that track I believe it does - but for you big HP guys that do not track - thoughts? And if I just do a pipe and then readily available parts for everything else and it hits well - makes for a very easy piece for someone else to rip that doesn't need to recoup R&D and all that. Just a bunch of stuff like that plays into the numbers game to figure out if and what works.

Once we start getting into again I'll follow up with you guys. I do expect to know in Q2 one way or the other.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Ha yeah still going to vet it thoroughly and see what we can do. At the least I'm going to improve on what we have already done on my car as a part of the build I still want to do with it. Maybe if we don't do a "kit" we can still facilitate the one off bits and a parts list for the other stuff for you guys that want to go that way without having to go into a full blown production mode level.



Everything you mentioned is definitely in consideration and huge factors as part of the financial feasibility. The range from using as many existing parts all the way up to bespoke for everything - they all have the pluses & minuses. A big factor I have seen on the track with the S55 is that as improved as it is over the N55 you can still outrun the efficiency of the stock bits. It takes a power bump and pace for sure to do it - but at a point upgrading the cooling system on the S55 needs to happen. Before that it is not necessary to outright control peak temps from going too far - but does help keep them a bit more friendly. The oem tmic does a very good job vs most aftermarket but there are a couple that do better (Wagner & PWR/C&R). Certainly this is drop in level stuff - so can easily be decided on by the end user - but does it make sense for me to pursue bracketry for one vs the other (or even different options). Bunch of little stuff like that adds up. The radiator & heat exchangers are a different animal though. But does an improvement there really appeal that much vs the oem for the bulk of N55s? For you big HP guys that track I believe it does - but for you big HP guys that do not track - thoughts? And if I just do a pipe and then readily available parts for everything else and it hits well - makes for a very easy piece for someone else to rip that doesn't need to recoup R&D and all that. Just a bunch of stuff like that plays into the numbers game to figure out if and what works.

Once we start getting into again I'll follow up with you guys. I do expect to know in Q2 one way or the other.

Hopefully you guys manage to develop something for all of us n55 guys, we would greatly appreciate it.

[Liukk89]

Hello guys, i'm running a stage 2 turbo and i'm planning to switch my wagner evo 2 to an evo 3 for some track use
So it could work or not? Reading this discussion it could restrict the flow to the radiator ,i also have the eventuri duct, and i think wouldn't fit without trimming or some modification

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Liukk89

Hello guys, i'm running a stage 2 turbo and i'm planning to switch my wagner evo 2 to an evo 3 for some track use
So it could work or not? Reading this discussion it could restrict the flow to the radiator ,i also have the eventuri duct, and i think wouldn't fit without trimming or some modification

Go with a VRSF/MAD Race - less than a 3rd the cost and similar or better performance, and doesn't bloc s much of the radiator.

[Liukk89]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Go with a VRSF/MAD Race - less than a 3rd the cost and similar or better performance, and doesn't bloc s much of the radiator.

Thanx, mad it's difficoult to purchase for me(located in europe) vrfs wich version?
I was considering evo 3 only for tubefin core and because would be more light

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Liukk89

Thanx, mad it's difficoult to purchase for me(located in europe) vrfs wich version?
I was considering evo 3 only for tubefin core and because would be more light

VRSF Race. And They all should be around the same weight +/-1kg, all will require the removal of the bumper and modifying the brace (you may need to use the M235i brace)
Tube and Fin are inferior to bar and plate intercoolers as well.

Have you checked with XPH for their pricing to ship to Europe?

[alwjmonster]

Originally Posted by Liukk89

Thanx, mad it's difficoult to purchase for me(located in europe) vrfs wich version?
I was considering evo 3 only for tubefin core and because would be more light

I suggest you try wmi before spending on another intercooler. Stage 2 turbo with wmi will be enough to keep iat cool at track. This is the best solution and your radiator will have enough air flow through with evo 2

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yes you could, but not in series because the inlet and outlets are too small to not be restrictive.

I don't think this will be an issue actually.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by alwjmonster

I suggest you try wmi before spending on another intercooler. Stage 2 turbo with wmi will be enough to keep iat cool at track. This is the best solution and your radiator will have enough air flow through with evo 2

It's like 500-$1000 more expensive. not including install.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1782572