[///393]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The Evo 2 is overpriced garbage even with WMI. I'm betting the CFS radiator is half the issue. On the F80* platform it performs worse than stock.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1760854

As I understand it ZM2 has confirmed with data and first hand experience that the CSF radiator is an improvement and performs as well as the DO88 unit.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

As I understand it ZM2 has confirmed with data and first hand experience that the CSF radiator is an improvement and performs as well as the DO88 unit.

Does it? I read through his thread a while ago and don’t recall that, I’ll have to check again.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Does it? I read through his thread a while ago and don’t recall that, I’ll have to check again.

I don’t know that I posted an update to the forum versus chatting with folks separately, but I recently switched from the CSF radiator to the do88 to see if there would be a difference, and coolant temps still got to 242F.

Overall, this is a general airflow issue with the OG M2, and why BMW opened up the nose on the M2 comp (along with all the S55 cooling setup changes, obviously), and why anyone that is decently quick and runs more than stock power on track in an OG has engine temp issues in the summer.

I have the GTS hood, but I don’t plan on cutting holes in the nose or creating custom cooler set ups that would impact four season drivability, so a smaller IC with WMI seems like the next thing to try even though it may not fully address the issue.

[///393]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I don’t know that I posted an update to the forum versus chatting with folks separately, but I recently switched from the CSF radiator to the do88 to see if there would be a difference, and coolant temps still got to 242F.

ZM2

Did the upgraded cooling package provide any benefit over stock units?

I seem to recall you indicating it bought you a LITTLE more time but as mentioned temps ultimately reached 242F.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

ZM2

Did the upgraded cooling package provide any benefit over stock units?

I seem to recall you indicating it bought you a LITTLE more time but as mentioned temps ultimately reached 242F.

Yup, the cooling package and running E50, water + wetter, BM3 Maxcool, etc., etc. helps, but ultimately the size of the CSF and do88 radiators aren’t enough and getting clean air to them is a huge challenge with the FMIC layout.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Yup, the cooling package and running E50, water + wetter, BM3 Maxcool, etc., etc. helps, but ultimately the size of the CSF and do88 radiators aren’t enough and getting clean air to them is a huge challenge with the FMIC layout.

Are these kits the Aux radiators, the primary or both? Higher capacity as well?
I'll have reread the thread (its been a while)

[///393]

CSF and DO88 bits are sold individually. While CSF make an upgraded oil cooler I don’t think they have an upgraded aux radiator.

DO88 makes both an upgraded aux radiator along with an upgraded oil cooler and my understanding is that their oil cooler is more substantial than the mild upgrade the CSF unit represents.

The D088 aux radiator and oil cooler both support more volume. CSF has two main radiator designs (42mm and 52mm cores) but the ‘race’ spec unit requires removal of AC condenser but its triple pass in design.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

CSF and DO88 bits are sold individually. While CSF make an upgraded oil cooler I don’t think they have an upgraded aux radiator.

DO88 makes both an upgraded aux radiator along with an upgraded oil cooler and my understanding is that their oil cooler is more substantial than the mild upgrade the CSF unit represents.

The D088 aux radiator and oil cooler both support more volume. CSF has two main radiator designs (42mm and 52mm cores) but the ‘race’ spec unit requires removal of AC condenser but its triple pass in design.

I have the do88 main & aux coolant radiators and the CSF oil cooler.

While coolant temps are the bigger issue than oil temps, they do influence each other bc of the oil/coolant cross flow exchanger. So, curious if the do88 oil cooler actually is better or not than the CSF?

[///393]

I can’t speak to any first hand experience or data but someone pointed out on here the significant size/capacity difference in the CSF oil cooler and the DO88 unit so it stands to reason it would provide better performance if only marginally.

DO88 claims, “52% bigger core volume, 84% bigger active cooling area, 15% higher oil volume in the actual oil cooler” over stock. It also includes a carbon shroud to direct airflow which I understand needs to be trimmed slightly but otherwise is a quality piece.

At $600 their oil cooler ain’t cheap. While I want an upgraded DO88 cooling package as I’m confident it will provide performance improvements instead of spending $1500 plus labor on I just avoid running track events in the summer.

Down here at Barber Motorsports Park I can run 12 months a year so I simply skip June-August and haven’t encountered any issues but I’m not logging oil/water temps so who knows. I’ve just never experienced limp mode or significant power loss but I’m only running BM3 Stage2 91oct which is a different world altogether than your beast.

I ain’t pussyfooting around out there though. Running WRL race pace and outrunning solid drivers in GT3/4.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

I can’t speak to any first hand experience or data but someone pointed out on here the significant size/capacity difference in the CSF oil cooler and the DO88 unit so it stands to reason it would provide better performance if only marginally.

DO88 claims, “52% bigger core volume, 84% bigger active cooling area, 15% higher oil volume in the actual oil cooler” over stock. It also includes a carbon shroud to direct airflow which I understand needs to be trimmed slightly but otherwise is a quality piece.

At $600 their oil cooler ain’t cheap. While I want an upgraded DO88 cooling package as I’m confident it will provide performance improvements instead of spending $1500 plus labor on I just avoid running track events in the summer.

Down here at Barber Motorsports Park I can run 12 months a year so I simply skip June-August and haven’t encountered any issues but I’m not logging oil/water temps so who knows. I’ve just never experienced limp mode or significant power loss but I’m only running BM3 Stage2 91oct which is a different world altogether than your beast.

I ain’t pussyfooting around out there though. Running WRL race pace and outrunning solid drivers in GT3/4.

Just like with intercoolers, surface area and fin count matters on the oil cooler and radiators. I'm wondering if its not just overall size/Capacity, but fin density.

With that said, it might just be easier to go with a high capacity universal option that has al of what I said above, and it would likely be cheaper.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

I can’t speak to any first hand experience or data but someone pointed out on here the significant size/capacity difference in the CSF oil cooler and the DO88 unit so it stands to reason it would provide better performance if only marginally.

DO88 claims, “52% bigger core volume, 84% bigger active cooling area, 15% higher oil volume in the actual oil cooler” over stock. It also includes a carbon shroud to direct airflow which I understand needs to be trimmed slightly but otherwise is a quality piece.

At $600 their oil cooler ain’t cheap. While I want an upgraded DO88 cooling package as I’m confident it will provide performance improvements instead of spending $1500 plus labor on I just avoid running track events in the summer.

Down here at Barber Motorsports Park I can run 12 months a year so I simply skip June-August and haven’t encountered any issues but I’m not logging oil/water temps so who knows. I’ve just never experienced limp mode or significant power loss but I’m only running BM3 Stage2 91oct which is a different world altogether than your beast.

I ain’t pussyfooting around out there though. Running WRL race pace and outrunning solid drivers in GT3/4.

Yeah, it’s hard to know from pics and %’s which is better. I’d certainly switch if the do88 has better performance.

Of note, the do88 only adds 1/4-qt oil capacity to the system, while the CSF adds 1/2-qt. Altho, no way to know how that along with all the other design differences impacts performance in this case.

[///393]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Of note, the do88 only adds 1/4-qt oil capacity to the system, while the CSF adds 1/2-qt. Altho, no way to know how that along with all the other design differences impacts performance in this case.

Interesting. I suspect neither are the silver bullet to a 480whp unit getting hammered on. I'm targeting an upper limit of around 430whp as a result with weight reduction helping to cover the delta as my build progresses.

[F87source]

In terms of wmi I would run pure distilled water. The reason why is that way you don't need a failsafe or a tune (just get a quality meth kit controller so it sprays progressively and can monitor the pump and solenoid so if something fails it doesn't just dump water into the charge pipe nonstop).


And the reason why you won't need a tune is because distilled water doesn't impact afrs at all. This works because water will fully atomize and evaporate in the charge pipe so when it reaches the combustion chamber it'll already occupy a certain volume of space and thus displacing a certain amount of air by default, so the o2 sensors can compensate by pulling a bit of fuel. This is how the car naturally compensates for running in high humidity environments or in the rain. So you literally can run without a tune so long as your nozzle sizes match your horse power levels (more importantly air flow into and out of the engine).


You dont need a failsafe because the water doesn't act like an octane "increaser". It only lowers iat and cools combustion chamber temps, which allows for less knock. If the wmi stops firing iats will immediately increase and the car will automatically pull timing according to the higher iats, essentially it's like driving in the rain or car wash and transitioning into the hot dry summer day. The car will see the high iat and pull timing. You might get some minor feedback knock from the reduced in cylinder cooling from the water, but nothing major like all of a sudden loosing the increased octane of methanol mixing with the fuel. And since you won't be tuning more agressively to utilize the cooler iats and in cylinder temps from running water, your car wasn't expecting higher octane anyways so there will not be major knock events.



This will also mean you don't have to worry about the car losing a bunch of power all of a sudden when you're on track (if you run out of fluid), like you would when the fail safe kicks on a wmi setup.

[AmuroRay]

OK - I've been thinking about this last night:

How do your oil temps look?
I'm betting some of the issue could be the coolant assisting with cooling down the engine (duh) but I'm betting you're having a slightly elevated oil temps as well. Basically the coolant is function as an oil cooler as well.

The next issue could be if you're just working the turbo too hard for what you want. It is likely well out of it's efficiency range which causes everything to work harder to keep things cool. You might be better served with a larger (PS2?) turbo to hit the power you want, without the excessive heat

Finally - did you record coolant temps before and after the Evo 3? I'm not convinced that it's blocking flow, so I've held off recommending another core for you.
ZM2

Edit: For what it's worth, any oil cooler can be used as a radiator - so getting a universal fit oil cooler could work as an upgrade vs what you already have.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...-radiator.html

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

OK - I've been thinking about this last night:

How do your oil temps look?
I'm betting some of the issue could be the coolant assisting with cooling down the engine (duh) but I'm betting you're having a slightly elevated oil temps as well. Basically the coolant is function as an oil cooler as well.

The next issue could be if you're just working the turbo too hard for what you want. It is likely well out of it's efficiency range which causes everything to work harder to keep things cool. You might be better served with a larger (PS2?) turbo to hit the power you want, without the excessive heat

Finally - did you record coolant temps before and after the Evo 3? I'm not convinced that it's blocking flow, so I've held off recommending another core for you.
ZM2

Edit: For what it's worth, any oil cooler can be used as a radiator - so getting a universal fit oil cooler could work as an upgrade vs what you already have.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...-radiator.html

Yeah, F87source have had many conversations on the side about all this and many other ideas. Still haven’t determined the silver bullet.

What I will say is coolant temps were getting too high on summer track days even when flashing back to stock or Stage 1. That didn’t happen until the Evo3 or the hood went on the car. So, pretty clear evidence right there.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Yeah, F87source have had many conversations on the side about all this and many other ideas. Still haven’t determined the silver bullet.

What I will say is coolant temps were getting too high on summer track days even when flashing back to stock or Stage 1. That didn’t happen until the Evo3 or the hood went on the car. So, pretty clear evidence right there.

If that's the case, you honestly might be better served with the VRSF-R or even the ER, though the ER lacks the thermal capacity the VRSF does - both are about 3" shorter than the Wagner Evo 3.

Heck, if you plan on doing WMI I would do the ER and see if you can use the space behind the cooler that's not being used for another radiator. Just a thought.

[F87source]

I wouldn't buy any other intercooler before trying stock + water injection to see how the coolant temps change and if water injection can keep iats in check. Based on this data you'll know if the intercooler was the cause of air flow restriction, then if there's an improvement in coolant temps and water injection can keep iats down just go with a 5" core.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

I wouldn't buy any other intercooler before trying stock + water injection to see how the coolant temps change and if water injection can keep iats in check. Based on this data you'll know if the intercooler was the cause of air flow restriction, then if there's an improvement in coolant temps and water injection can keep iats down just go with a 5" core.

Stock intercooler is not going to be enough:


https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1988679
Per his mod list, I believe it's a BMS intercooler (5")

I Found another on a " VRSF ( I think) -

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&highlight=wmi

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Stock intercooler is not going to be enough:


https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1988679
Per his mod list, I believe it's a BMS intercooler (5")

I Found another on a " VRSF ( I think) -

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&highlight=wmi

It won't, but the goal is to test coolant temps without throwing money at the problem. An ethanol mix + water injection should be able to keep octane and IAT's in a "safe" enough range.

[F87source]

Just found this image online and it pretty much sums up why the n55 has such a problem with high coolant temps:




As you can see, the intercooler is ~1/3 of the radiator's total height and since it is tucked under the radiator this essentially means the radiator is capped at 3/4 of its maximum potential height.



Now my idea was if we could utilize an intercooler that sits infront of the radiator like evolution racewerk's compeition intercooler, but maybe with a bit wider end tanks, then there is a chance we can slot a much larger radiator right behind it. This will give us a full length radiator and should solve all temperature woes on track. The problem is it is easier said than done, and I am not sure if any cooling vendor would be willing to put up the rnd money to solve this issue for us. So maybe an s55 cooling setup is cheaper.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by F87source

Just found this image online and it pretty much sums up why the n55 has such a problem with high coolant temps:




As you can see, the intercooler is ~1/3 of the radiator's total height and since it is tucked under the radiator this essentially means the radiator is capped at 3/4 of its maximum potential height.



Now my idea was if we could utilize an intercooler that sits infront of the radiator like evolution racewerk's compeition intercooler, but maybe with a bit wider end tanks, then there is a chance we can slot a much larger radiator right behind it. This will give us a full length radiator and should solve all temperature woes on track. The problem is it is easier said than done, and I am not sure if any cooling vendor would be willing to put up the rnd money to solve this issue for us. So maybe an s55 cooling setup is cheaper.

I wonder if it’d be hard to custom mount the CSF Race, S55, or other radiator in this fashion without an AC delete? Seems like it shouldn’t be too difficult?

OG Shark any insight here?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I wonder if it’d be hard to custom mount the CSF Race, S55, or other radiator in this fashion without an AC delete? Seems like it shouldn’t be too difficult?

OG Shark any insight here?

If you're willing to completely change out the radiator mounts and get an s55 ac condenser core, then it should all be bolt on factory OEM parts.


However the problem is the intercooler. The intercooler must be of a design that sits in front of the radiator - like the er or arm intercooler. But the next problem is the end tank, the charge pipe connectors likely aren't wide enough to clear the radiator now.