[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I'll say it again: the M2 with the now almost confirmed specs will be a great car in isolation, but when the M3 exists (for about $10k more) with a bespoke M engine, CF roof, special seats etc.. Suddenly the M2 doesn't look so good anymore.

The M2 should have been a baby M4 with a detuned S55, no one here had any illusions about a brand new engine, instead we are getting a glorified M235 with an LSD and wider track. No thanks.

Keep saying.... but it won't make it so. It wasn't true five years ago before the 1M came out when people said..

The 1M should have been a baby M3 with a detuned S65, no one here had any illusions about a brand new engine, instead we are getting a glorified 135 with an LSD and wider track. No thanks.

and yet somehow.. it became a cult classic... even when compared to the " REAL DEAL" E90 M3 that came with an S motor... and was had for less than 10K more.. OOPS... sometimes about 5K more.. or OOPS... sometimes a person could negotiate a better deal on the E9x M3...

So.. 5 years have passed... and pretty much the only thing that has changed is the model names... 1M to M2 and M3 is now M3/M4... and there is a CLEAR PRECEDENT... and yet.. you still declare the M2 a glorified M235... (which of course it is.. that's what M does...!) but that it won't be special...

I truly find this Fascinating.

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I'll say it again: the M2 with the now almost confirmed specs will be a great car in isolation, but when the M3 exists (for about $10k more) with a bespoke M engine, CF roof, special seats etc.. Suddenly the M2 doesn't look so good anymore.

The M2 should have been a baby M4 with a detuned S55, no one here had any illusions about a brand new engine, instead we are getting a glorified M235 with an LSD and wider track. No thanks.

And when the car comes out, and people realize how incredibly superior it will be to the 235i, no one will be complaining

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Adem1534

And when the car comes out, and people realize how incredibly superior it will be to the 235i, no one will be complaining

Incorrect... there will be PLENTY of people complaining... but they will be complaining about how they can't get one...

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Keep saying.... but it won't make it so. It wasn't true five years ago before the 1M came out when people said..

The 1M should have been a baby M3 with a detuned S65, no one here had any illusions about a brand new engine, instead we are getting a glorified 135 with an LSD and wider track. No thanks.

and yet somehow.. it became a cult classic... even when compared to the " REAL DEAL" E90 M3 that came with an S motor... and was had for less than 10K more.. OOPS... sometimes about 5K more.. or OOPS... sometimes a person could negotiate a better deal on the E9x M3...

So.. 5 years have passed... and pretty much the only thing that has changed is the model names... 1M to M2 and M3 is now M3/M4... and there is a CLEAR PRECEDENT... and yet.. you still declare the M2 a glorified M235... (which of course it is.. that's what M does...!) but that it won't be special...

I truly find this Fascinating.

I think people were complaining that the 1M should have had a tuned up S54. And it was stated that they did test the engine in it, but it proved to be too heavy.

Maybe if BMW allowed M Division to have one car that is naturally aspirated, and allowed that to be the M2, something akin to Porsche allowing the GT3/RS and GT4 to be naturally aspirated.
But, then again, that would mean that M Division would have to develop that engine from the ground up, which costs $$$$. But, isn't that what AMG has done?

[Ramos]

I'm getting flamed even though all I'm saying is that the M2 will be great but could be greater with a detuned S55, CF roof option and seats (even as an added option)

Why is that statement controversial? Especially coming from someone who has followed the M2 development religiously every single day for over a year like me?

I'm just a little disappointed that's all and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that an M3 presents a better value at a $10k price premium

[filet.M2c]

Do I agree with many of you that the M2 will be a great car? Sure. Is the M2 on the top of my list? yes. But to an extent I also have to agree with Ramos. Look at the model to model improvements from the 1M to the M2 and there aren't many... An easy way to put it, if the 1M was not limited and had a typical private used market with typical BMW depreciation I would assume many of us, myself included, would opt to purchase a used 1M for $20K+ less than the M2 and apply the extra money toward our own preferred modifications. Unfortunately, this is not an option for us, so again we are forced to buy the M2 due to lack of options, not because it is the obvious front runner. Really it all boils down to price. If this car clocks in at over $55k, then it will be difficult to justify, but if it is <$51K and easy to purchase without dealer markups then there will be an obvious market for BMW to target.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I'm getting flamed even though all I'm saying is that the M2 will be great but could be greater with a detuned S55, CF roof option and seats (even as an added option)

Why is that statement controversial? Especially coming from someone who has followed the M2 development religiously every single day for over a year like me?

I'm just a little disappointed that's all and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that an M3 presents a better value at a $10k price premium

Of course the M3 is a better value. There is no argument about that. It was the same with the 1M. The 1M/M2 were not designed to be best value cars.

How would having a mini M4 in the line up help BMW as a business unit? It wouldn't because they decided they can hit their performance targets without the fancy motor and CF parts, therefor make more profit on the targeted sales price.

If this car was top value, people would buy it instead of their halo m3/m4. Not what they want.

[Nahlem]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I'm getting flamed even though all I'm saying is that the M2 will be great but could be greater with a detuned S55, CF roof option and seats (even as an added option)

Why is that statement controversial? Especially coming from someone who has followed the M2 development religiously every single day for over a year like me?

I'm just a little disappointed that's all and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that an M3 presents a better value at a $10k price premium

Hmm i can understand that you feel flamed i don't think people are having that intention but again its the Internet and everyone who reads something reads it in there own way and tune it to sound differently in the head thats important to remember.

Thats why i hate writing over the web its always hard to formulate something without sounding like a total jerk. Also why i hate text messaging and prefer to call someone so they can hear if i am upset, happy or whatever tone i have in my voice.

But on topic.

How much weight extra or minus are we talking about if they were to use for example a detuned S55 engine? Cause that is probably one factor to why they use the N55. Maybe the S65 doesn't fit in the engine compartment of the M2 and placing it there would cause major overhaul of the chassi that is already great and might cause instability in it? Cause the M235i chassi is a 50:50 balance and adding an S65 would disrupt that maybe? And then adding weight on the back of the car would result in even a greater weight gain that they want to avoid at all cost.

It is still a 2 Series coupé and you can't redesign it to that extent that it would look like something totally different then a 2 Series it always has to stay true to the base model of the car in one way or another so it can be called a 2 series and not the series in between 2 and 3. For me when i see some of the wide body kits that is available to buy, They have a tendency to go far to off from what the 2 series should look like (now this is a personal preference and nothing else important to remember) So therefor not changing the design to radical is a clear choice for BMW so they can stay true to the 2 series spirit.

I think BMW is walking on a fine line where the M2 is going to be placed. What if in a year they reveal there will me a new 1M have they said they are going to discontinue developing the 1 Series?

Whether the price is going to be good or not remains to be seen if it is worth spending certain amount of money on a car if you can get something better for just a little bit more.

In the end i think the M2 is going to be a very special car that will stay true to its "M" genes and will grow fondly in our memories

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by synergist

Do I agree with many of you that the M2 will be a great car? Sure. Is the M2 on the top of my list? yes. But to an extent I also have to agree with Ramos. Look at the model to model improvements from the 1M to the M2 and there aren't many... An easy way to put it, if the 1M was not limited and had a typical private used market with typical BMW depreciation I would assume many of us, myself included, would opt to purchase a used 1M for $20K+ less than the M2 and apply the extra money toward our own preferred modifications. Unfortunately, this is not an option for us, so again we are forced to buy the M2 due to lack of options, not because it is the obvious front runner. Really it all boils down to price. If this car clocks in at over $55k, then it will be difficult to justify, but if it is <$51K and easy to purchase without dealer markups then there will be an obvious market for BMW to target.

This is a great point. I also believe the 1M's limited production played a huge factor in the mystique and current almost legendary status of that car. If it was served all you can eat, I honestly don't think people would be busting all over it to the extent they still are. A limited production car does dirty dirty things to people subconsciously. Still a great car though. I also don't think there would be such a line for the new M2 if the 1m wasn't limited production. People would approach it more like they did the m3/m4. More wait and see and try to find a good price.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I'm getting flamed even though all I'm saying is that the M2 will be great but could be greater with a detuned S55, CF roof option and seats (even as an added option)

Why is that statement controversial? Especially coming from someone who has followed the M2 development religiously every single day for over a year like me?

I'm just a little disappointed that's all and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that an M3 presents a better value at a $10k price premium

You are getting flamed because it is true. And people don't want to admit it. The M2 is an M car because M says it is. But, also because marketing needs to convince you that without all the things that the other other M cars have, that the M2 is just as special and an M car through and through. Ask yourself this, if the M Engineers wanted to make the M2 their way, would they have the N55 in it? Or would it come with another engine? This has to be signed off from up top, and meet a certain budget. Remember the case for the 1M had to be revised several times before it was approved.

The M2 will be a great car, but there will always be that lingering question of could it have been greater with an "S" engine (among other things). It's like McDonald's saying the Big Mac is the same without the secret sauce.

[bobloblaw]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

This is a great point. I also believe the 1M's limited production played a huge factor in the mystique and current almost legendary status of that car. If it was served all you can eat, I honestly don't think people would be busting all over it to the extent they still are. A limited production car does dirty dirty things to people subconsciously. Still a great car though. I also don't think there would be such a line for the new M2 if the 1m wasn't limited production. People would approach it more like they did the m3/m4. More wait and see and try to find a good price.

I have had this same thought too. To be clear, I have not driven the 1M, so this is just a feeling. I feel that if it weren't so limited, it wouldn't be viewed as highly as it is now. And this is the reason I have concerns about following the 1M formula to a T.

The 1M had crazy wide fenders and looked like an over-eager dog or something and that was very endearing to a lot of people, myself included. The M2 will be much less limited from what we have heard, and will have more M4 style fender flares than the 1M style flares. While I have no doubt it will look very aggressive, it won't have that same quirky yet aggressive look the 1M had.

I think this will be the last generation where BMW can get away with putting an x35i or x40i engine in the car with some M3/4 bits before journos start putting some pressure on them to change the formula and to innovate. No doubt that this formula will lead to a fun car, but it will start to be seen as lazy and just too repetitive.

[Adem1534]

Now here's what I'm confused about.

The M40i only has 355 hp. I though the M2 was getting 365/370 hp?

Maybe they're still not exactly the same?

[technik330]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I'm just a little disappointed that's all and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that an M3 presents a better value at a $10k price premium

There's nothing 'wrong' with being underwhelmed with the car; a lot of the members here are passionate, maybe a little too much, and are trying to 'defend' their own interest in the car.

I think we can all agree that the M2 wasn't made for everyone, it's unapologetic in its limited colors and options and some of the people here appear to be tired of hearing people vent their frustrations about the car, valid or not.

It's funny, but the M2 to M3/M4 debate is very similar to the WRX to STi debate with a very similar price disparity between the two as well.

At the end of the day this is simply a car forum, don't let a couple posts ruin your day.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Ramos

when the M3 exists (for about $10k more) with a bespoke M engine, CF roof, special seats etc.. Suddenly the M2 doesn't look so good anymore.

Originally Posted by Ramos

I'm just a little disappointed that's all and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that an M3 presents a better value at a $10k price premium

Ramos, even if the $10K delta would be accurate (which we don't know yet as we speak), resale value can also be part of the equation (apart from all the driving fun, which may be more important for most of us). See for example the E82 1M and E9X M3 back in 2011 versus now.

The M2 won't be available in high quantities but not limited, fair enough, but with the ///M division having conceived and tweaked it, its more compact size (remember E46 M3 size) and some M3/M4 goodies integrated, it has the potential IMHO to get you excellent value for money + to keep its value better (read: depreciate less) in the long run than for example the M3/M4 (and again, apart from all the driving fun).

The M3/M4 is a great car, no doubt about it, but the M2 got my attention.

As regards the M2 CSL: not on the radar in the near future and likely not convenient enough for daily driving (but that's speculation - let's first wait for the presentation of the M2 CSL concept rumored for 2016).

[chris719]

Cars are very poor investments, almost universally depreciating assets. I hope production is reasonable so that the "street" price is lower than the M3. If not then BMW has completely failed at producing an "entry" M car.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

I have had this same thought too. To be clear, I have not driven the 1M, so this is just a feeling. I feel that if it weren't so limited, it wouldn't be viewed as highly as it is now. And this is the reason I have concerns about following the 1M formula to a T.

The 1M had crazy wide fenders and looked like an over-eager dog or something and that was very endearing to a lot of people, myself included. The M2 will be much less limited from what we have heard, and will have more M4 style fender flares than the 1M style flares. While I have no doubt it will look very aggressive, it won't have that same quirky yet aggressive look the 1M had.

I think this will be the last generation where BMW can get away with putting an x35i or x40i engine in the car with some M3/4 bits before journos start putting some pressure on them to change the formula and to innovate. No doubt that this formula will lead to a fun car, but it will start to be seen as lazy and just too repetitive.

the funny part about this is... that it is BMW enthusiasts... many on these very same pages.. that have taught BMW that there is not a need to ... as you say... innovate.

It's easier to placate the average BMW fan (as well as the average BMW enthusiast) by dropping in a tried and true BMW Six cylinder. The BMW 6 cylinder is so cliché... that BMW enthusiasts don't even know that BMW can build the hell out of any motor. They only want the 6. Oh.. and perhaps the V10.

The E30 M3 was developed by taking two cylinders off the block that was used in the legendary M1. What if BMW used all the tech and info from the S55.. lopped off two cylinders.. and made an S20? What would be raw, edgy, and daring would have been a bespoke 4 cylinder twin turbo, not some Detuned version of any other motor... detuning is just as much weaksauce as uprating an outgoing motor isn't it?

oh but wait... I bet they already have... and the idea has been floated here and voted down. I bet if you created a poll for the most important M2 feature... and included.. CF roof... Bespoke M seats... Wild fender flares... fender slits.. bespoke 4... or a 6 cyl motor.. pick one... Guess which one wins?

The question is moot however... for the moment... because the N55 will be around for a couple of years...and it will be used in several different vehicles.. However.. perhaps .. for the Hardcore BMW enthusiast... as well as all those journos you mention... they will have an upper echelon... to go against the Black series... and GT series... Perhaps they will call it.. CSL..

[bobloblaw]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

The E30 M3 was developed by taking two cylinders off the block that was used in the legendary M1. What if BMW used all the tech and info from the S55.. lopped off two cylinders.. and made an S20?

Good points. But this sounds cooler to me than "the M2 was developed by taking the engine out of the X4M440i by taking it out of the X4 and putting it into the M2"

Imagine if Audi made the RS3 by putting a slightly tuned A4 2.0T or the 3.0L from the SQ5 in it with some RS5 parts and bodywork, and kept the interior the same as an A3. It would probably be laughed off of this forum.

[swagon]

Just copying info from the X4 M40i thread:

High Precision Injection system
Double VANOS
VALVETRONIC
Turbocharger integrated into the exhaust manifold
Aerodynamically tuned air intake manifold
Separate oil cooler
Closed-deck design
Water jacket surrounding the cylinders is sealed at the top, providing crankcase an high degree of stiffness
Forged steel crankshaft
Pistons with a modified top ring
High performance spark plugs
Higher level of turbo boost pressure

I'd say quite a lot HW changes for an SUV - the question is whether they're gonna do some changes for the M2's engine or let it be just like they did with the N54T.

[W///]

Originally Posted by swagon

Just copying info from the X4 M40i thread:

3.0L TwinPower Turbo inline 6 cylinder (N55 engine - N55B30T0)
355 hp @ 5800-6000 RPM
343 lb-ft @ 1350-5250 RPM
High Precision Injection system
Double VANOS
VALVETRONIC
Turbocharger integrated into the exhaust manifold
Aerodynamically tuned air intake manifold
Separate oil cooler
Closed-deck design
Water jacket surrounding the cylinders is sealed at the top, providing crankcase an high degree of stiffness
Forged steel crankshaft
Pistons with a modified top ring
High performance spark plugs
Higher level of turbo boost pressure

Didn't know it was closed deck. Interesting

FYI, I heard this X4 drive by me in real life and it sounded seriously fabulous. I really mean that.

[swagon]

Originally Posted by W///

Didn't know it was closed deck. Interesting

FYI, I heard this X4 drive by me in real life and it sounded seriously fabulous. I really mean that.

Oh, the M40i? Nice. I have to say that the 135is (or 135i with PPK and PE) sounds awesome - deep tone and lots of pops and crackles. The M235i ain't near that so I hope M GmbH has been spending lots of time tweaking the sounds.

We might scrape the separate oil cooler thing - most N54's and all N55's w/ Sport pkg had a separate oil cooler. I guess the X4 35i doesn't have one...?

[swagon]

Now I'm reading through the X4 M40i press release:

"... our development engineers have optimised the drive unit using a
forged steel crankshaft in addition to components from the high-performance
engine fitted to the BMW M3 and BMW M4, which were introduced in 2014.
This is how, among other things, pistons with an adapted top ring, crankshaft
bearings and high power spark plugs found their way from the six-cylinder inline
engine with M TwinPower Turbo technology to the new BMW X4 M40i.

... the engine has been fitted with an aerodynamically
tuned air intake manifold as well as an exhaust system optimised both in
terms of back pressure and sound characteristics in order to further increase
performance....

... The integration of the turbocharger into the exhaust manifold also makes a
significant contribution to the highly efficient power optimisation... As a consequence, the warm-up phase
after a cold start has now been significantly shortened..."

[W///]

Originally Posted by swagon

Oh, the M40i? Nice. I have to say that the 135is (or 135i with PPK and PE) sounds awesome - deep tone and lots of pops and crackles. The M235i ain't near that so I hope M GmbH has been spending lots of time tweaking the sounds.

We might scrape the separate oil cooler thing - most N54's and all N55's w/ Sport pkg had a separate oil cooler. I guess the X4 35i doesn't have one...?

Yes correct. I saw the twin exhaust tips.

It was wayyyyy louder than a stock M235i. I think it was even louder than the M235i with Performance exhaust that I drove. Tone is about same as the 335iS (with the N54), but it had a ton of crackle and pops even at low speeds. I was very happy to hear that to be honest with you

Honestly, that's how the M3/4 should have sounded from factory. Super throaty, rather than a raspy.