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      02-14-2020, 12:10 PM   #23
waddafucc
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my stage 2 acn91 agg San jose with shell v power. datalog

m235i
vrsf FBO kit/ m2 muffler

halim said that fuel octane is very bad. was told to go to a different pump station. i think i'll be doin 93 octane with 101 and 91 mixture for my next datalog for him. im wondering if its oem my spark plugs

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e461272d10b432feef14a9b
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      02-14-2020, 12:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waddafucc View Post
m235i
vrsf FBO kit/ m2 muffler

halim said that fuel octane is very bad. was told to go to a different pump station. i think i'll be doin 93 octane with 101 and 91 mixture for my next datalog for him. im wondering if its oem my spark plugs

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e461272d10b432feef14a9b
I too live in the Bay Area, Sunnyvale to be exact, and tried almost all of the gas stations in my area, sending logs to Halim. This was just over a year ago if I remember correctly.

There are 5 oil refineries in the Bay Area, in order of size (No. of barrels processed per day):
  • Chevron
  • Marathon
  • Shell
  • Valero
  • Philips 66
Unfortunately there is no guarantee that a gas station you go to uses the gas from their own refinery and even if there were, the big difference between gas is only additives, and these do not affect octane in any significant way.

At that time I tried Chevron, Arco (Marathon), Shell, Valero, 76 (Philips), and Costco stations. They all performed identically, and identically bad.

I tried 1 step colder plugs, and they're an improvement, but nothing to write home about. I probably wouldn't bother if I were doing this again.

I experimented with mixing E85 to create E blends on the OTS 91 map (ACN 91 OTS map wasn't available at the time), and found that E20 improved things to just about acceptable with this map, but really a little more octane (E value) would have been better. When I went over E20 my HPFP ran out of pressure but that's an option if you don't mind blending for every tank.

I believe in CA we're left with four options to this problem:
  • WMI (the route I took)
  • Upgraded HPFP to handle higher E blends
  • Blending race gas to achieve higher octane
  • Use octane boosters like Boostane
Going the HPFP route and an E30 blend will allow you to run the (regular non ACN) 91 OTS map safely (do not use the E30 map because this assumes a good base fuel before the Ethanol is added; we don't have that luxury!), but probably not the 93 OTS map. You could add more Ethanol than E30 with something like a stage 2 HPFP, but then you might run the risk of damaging the top end of the engine because the oil layer of the cylinder and valve train can be cleaned off if there is too much ethanol. You can use a top end lubricant to help with this, but then that's something else again that you need to do.

A good, progressive WMI kit will allow you to run the 93 OTS map safely because it boosts octane, fuelling and lowers IATs. It's also really cheap for a daily driver. 1 gallon of 50:50 water:methanol lasts for about 2 tanks on the street (would be used much faster on track), and 5 gallons of Methanol costs bout $35 - Less than $2 per tank for street driving.

Blending race gas is a good option, but it's very expensive and it's difficult to find race gas (though certainly not impossible, I know of a few stations in the Bay Area). One thing to keep in mind is that octane doesn't mix linearly. What I mean by that is that if you mix 1 gallon of 91 AKI with 1 gallon of 101, you don't necessarily end up with 96. When I tried this I got closer to a 93 AKI result with 50:50 race gas, and that's an expensive proposition for a daily driver.

Octane boosters have been used effectively by some users on this forum, but I didn't want to go that route. It's in between the price of WMI and Race Gas blending, but it turns the inside of your engine, turbo and exhaust system orange, and the long term consequences of that concerned me.
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CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      02-17-2020, 10:24 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
I too live in the Bay Area, Sunnyvale to be exact, and tried almost all of the gas stations in my area, sending logs to Halim. This was just over a year ago if I remember correctly.

There are 5 oil refineries in the Bay Area, in order of size (No. of barrels processed per day):
  • Chevron
  • Marathon
  • Shell
  • Valero
  • Philips 66
Unfortunately there is no guarantee that a gas station you go to uses the gas from their own refinery and even if there were, the big difference between gas is only additives, and these do not affect octane in any significant way.

At that time I tried Chevron, Arco (Marathon), Shell, Valero, 76 (Philips), and Costco stations. They all performed identically, and identically bad.

I tried 1 step colder plugs, and they're an improvement, but nothing to write home about. I probably wouldn't bother if I were doing this again.

I experimented with mixing E85 to create E blends on the OTS 91 map (ACN 91 OTS map wasn't available at the time), and found that E20 improved things to just about acceptable with this map, but really a little more octane (E value) would have been better. When I went over E20 my HPFP ran out of pressure but that's an option if you don't mind blending for every tank.

I believe in CA we're left with four options to this problem:
  • WMI (the route I took)
  • Upgraded HPFP to handle higher E blends
  • Blending race gas to achieve higher octane
  • Use octane boosters like Boostane
Going the HPFP route and an E30 blend will allow you to run the (regular non ACN) 91 OTS map safely (do not use the E30 map because this assumes a good base fuel before the Ethanol is added; we don't have that luxury!), but probably not the 93 OTS map. You could add more Ethanol than E30 with something like a stage 2 HPFP, but then you might run the risk of damaging the top end of the engine because the oil layer of the cylinder and valve train can be cleaned off if there is too much ethanol. You can use a top end lubricant to help with this, but then that's something else again that you need to do.

A good, progressive WMI kit will allow you to run the 93 OTS map safely because it boosts octane, fuelling and lowers IATs. It's also really cheap for a daily driver. 1 gallon of 50:50 water:methanol lasts for about 2 tanks on the street (would be used much faster on track), and 5 gallons of Methanol costs bout $35 - Less than $2 per tank for street driving.

Blending race gas is a good option, but it's very expensive and it's difficult to find race gas (though certainly not impossible, I know of a few stations in the Bay Area). One thing to keep in mind is that octane doesn't mix linearly. What I mean by that is that if you mix 1 gallon of 91 AKI with 1 gallon of 101, you don't necessarily end up with 96. When I tried this I got closer to a 93 AKI result with 50:50 race gas, and that's an expensive proposition for a daily driver.

Octane boosters have been used effectively by some users on this forum, but I didn't want to go that route. It's in between the price of WMI and Race Gas blending, but it turns the inside of your engine, turbo and exhaust system orange, and the long term consequences of that concerned me.

thanks for the response. i feel like part of my just wants to jump the gun and order a custom tune. i believe that if im going that route. the tuner can tailor my tune around the shitty gas we have. but it's safer, could possibly have more power, and more convenient than doin methanol injections. california gas a bit*h. i usually fill at shell in the east side of san jose. it sucks that the acn91 OTS don't feel like they're OTS but its not their fault though.
what do you think of my datalogs. were they similar to yours?

datalogs
4th gear pull
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e461272d10b432feef14a9b

rough idle??
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e479727c090c640543734de
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      02-17-2020, 12:46 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waddafucc View Post
thanks for the response. i feel like part of my just wants to jump the gun and order a custom tune. i believe that if im going that route. the tuner can tailor my tune around the shitty gas we have. but it's safer, could possibly have more power, and more convenient than doin methanol injections. california gas a bit*h. i usually fill at shell in the east side of san jose. it sucks that the acn91 OTS don't feel like they're OTS but its not their fault though.
what do you think of my datalogs. were they similar to yours?

datalogs
4th gear pull
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e461272d10b432feef14a9b

rough idle??
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e479727c090c640543734de
The data logs only show timing on one cylinder. You really need all 6 to get a sense of what's going on, but even with that, it doesn't look great. Your turbo-fold is slightly different from an M2, so there might be some differences there that are impacting you. Do you have a high flow cat / catless downpipe? Have you upgraded your spark plugs yet?

A custom tune won't give you any benefits if this is what you're seeing with the ACN map. I had a tuner offer me a custom tune for free a year or so back, but he was basically offering to remove over-boost from the stock map to increase safety with our fuel.

I think the thing you need to understand is that with CA 91 fuel, regardless of the gas station (within reason), doesn't even allow the stock map to make full power. If you're looking for more power, you need to address the octane issue first. A custom map won't do that for you at all.

I don't want to imply that a custom map isn't worthwhile... It absolutely is, but only once you have the supporting modifications to allow the custom map to make any difference at all.

My suggestions would be the following, if you've not done them already:
  • High Flow Cat / Catless Downpipe
  • 97506 plugs
  • E20 E85 blend (~1.25 US Gallons of E85 per fill of the tank, assuming you fill as soon as the first low fuel warning comes on) or Boostane for a few tanks
Once you validate that octane really is the issue (with logs), you can decide where to go from there on, based on the advice I gave in the previous post.

Obviously, you know the route I took, and I have a whole thread about my install and setup. I'd be happy to meet up and show you the install if you're interested, but there is not a lot to see because I kept it looking as stock as possible.
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2018 ///M2 LCI, LBB, 6MT...

Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      02-17-2020, 01:05 PM   #27
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Man I feel for you guys getting such shitty gas
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      02-17-2020, 01:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Motoring View Post
Man I feel for you guys getting such shitty gas
It's sad, yes, but I suspect that even your fuel is worse than that in Europe I'm afraid.

This really wasn't an issue in the past, but with the trend for smaller, forced induction engines, it's really becoming a big problem. Apparently there is a balance between cost, smog prevention and octane. E85 is probably a good solution, and may be why a lot of US cars are flex-fuel from the factory. It's those of us with European cars that are suffering the most currently.
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Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      02-17-2020, 02:42 PM   #29
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Texas fuel is supposed to be semi decent but I'm limited as to what my tuner can get out of my vehicle by octane as well.
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      02-17-2020, 02:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post
Texas fuel is supposed to be semi decent but I'm limited as to what my tuner can get out of my vehicle by octane as well.
You're always going to be limited by something... Octane, Fuel Volume, IATs, Turbo, Flow restrictions etc... At least octane is fairly easy to solve.

I think the N55 is limited first by octane, then by turbo, then by fueling. If you fix the turbo and / or fueling you can shift the octane restriction up a little, but not by much. The good news is that we now have somewhat affordable HPFP, Turbo, and Meth injection setups... Big power is possible but it does seem to require all three, especially in the US.
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2018 ///M2 LCI, LBB, 6MT...

Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      02-17-2020, 02:53 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
You're always going to be limited by something... Octane, Fuel Volume, IATs, Turbo, Flow restrictions etc... At least octane is fairly easy to solve.

I think the N55 is limited first by octane, then by turbo, then by fueling. If you fix the turbo and / or fueling you can shift the octane restriction up a little, but not by much. The good news is that we now have somewhat affordable HPFP, Turbo, and Meth injection setups... Big power is possible but it does seem to require all three, especially in the US.
He offered to make a second tune for fuel with octane boost that I could toggle in the vehicle but I opted not to. I could have and toggle between four different maps but I just wanted one that was safe for the fuel I'd be running on a daily basis.
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      02-19-2020, 12:13 PM   #32
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i see. i have all the supporting modifications but spark plugs.
i might be swapping out my BMS intake for OEM, ive heard issues with people running lean on our cars because of it. ive always thought the aftermarket intakes Assists the turbo by making sure it gets enough air on higher boost. i just couldn't understand how it would affect my AFR when air is controlled by a different entity.

I have not swapped the spark plugs out yet. i will be doing it somewhere down the line. i'll be ok running the OTS just fine without my pistons crying for help right? after all the ECU is still smart enough to keep it from actually knocking and killing itself

mods: VRSF FMIC,BMS INTAKE, VRSF DP AND CP.
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      06-15-2020, 09:46 AM   #33
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To any that are still interested. Took some more logs today.

I don't know anything about interpreting the data though so hopefully someone can chime in. It would be appreciated.


Stage 1 ACN91:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...0b435ebe9ff00a

Stage 2 ACN91:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...0b435e39affe92

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...90c62d8734894b
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      06-15-2020, 02:19 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
The data logs only show timing on one cylinder. You really need all 6 to get a sense of what's going on, but even with that, it doesn't look great. Your turbo-fold is slightly different from an M2, so there might be some differences there that are impacting you. Do you have a high flow cat / catless downpipe? Have you upgraded your spark plugs yet?

A custom tune won't give you any benefits if this is what you're seeing with the ACN map. I had a tuner offer me a custom tune for free a year or so back, but he was basically offering to remove over-boost from the stock map to increase safety with our fuel.

I think the thing you need to understand is that with CA 91 fuel, regardless of the gas station (within reason), doesn't even allow the stock map to make full power. If you're looking for more power, you need to address the octane issue first. A custom map won't do that for you at all.

I don't want to imply that a custom map isn't worthwhile... It absolutely is, but only once you have the supporting modifications to allow the custom map to make any difference at all.

My suggestions would be the following, if you've not done them already:
  • High Flow Cat / Catless Downpipe
  • 97506 plugs
  • E20 E85 blend (~1.25 US Gallons of E85 per fill of the tank, assuming you fill as soon as the first low fuel warning comes on) or Boostane for a few tanks
Once you validate that octane really is the issue (with logs), you can decide where to go from there on, based on the advice I gave in the previous post.

Obviously, you know the route I took, and I have a whole thread about my install and setup. I'd be happy to meet up and show you the install if you're interested, but there is not a lot to see because I kept it looking as stock as possible.
If you mind sharing, can you disclose the cost of the entire WMI setup you have? WMI does seem to be the nicest in regards to not having to deal with mixing ethanol/race gas, but obviously the setup cost is much higher (although from what you said, it seems over time you actually save money per tank of gas).
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      06-15-2020, 02:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyang92 View Post
If you mind sharing, can you disclose the cost of the entire WMI setup you have? WMI does seem to be the nicest in regards to not having to deal with mixing ethanol/race gas, but obviously the setup cost is much higher (although from what you said, it seems over time you actually save money per tank of gas).
I think I paid about $1,000 for all of the parts, including additional bits to make the install as OEM as possible (no wire taps, factory or copy cat connectors etc.)
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Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      06-17-2020, 04:35 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
I think I paid about $1,000 for all of the parts, including additional bits to make the install as OEM as possible (no wire taps, factory or copy cat connectors etc.)
That's actually a lot better than I was expecting! Especially for the gains you get due to the limitations of the bad gas here in CA.
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      06-22-2020, 02:20 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
To any that are still interested. Took some more logs today.

I don't know anything about interpreting the data though so hopefully someone can chime in. It would be appreciated.


Stage 1 ACN91:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...0b435ebe9ff00a

Stage 2 ACN91:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...0b435e39affe92

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...90c62d8734894b
Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
To any that are still interested. Took some more logs today.

I don't know anything about interpreting the data though so hopefully someone can chime in. It would be appreciated.


Stage 1 ACN91:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...0b435ebe9ff00a

Stage 2 ACN91:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...0b435e39affe92

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...90c62d8734894b
Bump for anyone kind enough to help. I am also interested in doing stage 2 91.
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      06-22-2020, 03:49 AM   #38
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I reached out to PTF and they said my logs looked good. Overall I'm happy
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      06-22-2020, 05:44 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
I reached out to PTF and they said my logs looked good. Overall I'm happy
Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
I reached out to PTF and they said my logs looked good. Overall I'm happy
Great to hear! And thank you for logging your experience through this, it's been very helpful to follow as there hardly any threads talking about ACN specific maps. I will be flashing mine very soon
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