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      08-27-2015, 11:53 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
HAHAHAHA

Maybe he just has a split personality disorder.
he forgot to sign into his fake account.
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      08-27-2015, 12:06 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
lot of ppl on here seem to be brand whores and equate their status or driving skill to the attributes of the car.

I bet me in that hyundai n will be lapping 90% of you, actually probably 99% of you who ridicule that car, on a track. some people just don't get it. Probably wondering what mods were on the car too. it's stock! even more laughs then.

Stop the entitled douchebaggery it's pathetic.

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Originally Posted by hikeskool View Post
Subjective brand loyalty is for simpletons.

Your Cadillac anecdote is another in a long line of examples of this laughably sad epidemic on this board.

I am actually in the same boat with this guy. Regardless how good one car can get, there are things that keeps you bonded to a brand. It is not all about power or price. I am kind of sick to see how all the BMW fans are slapped all the time with all kind of epithets. Stop being judgemental, not everybody in here is a brand seeker, the majority just enjoy the package of a well built car that managed properly to be a summary of driving atributes.
People identify themselves with a certain brand due to the fact that its products have certain atributes that are appealing to them. For me, my car is expressing my personality, my needs, my expectations

It makes me laugh too when I see individuals that start pointing at fans because they love a brand. They don't love it because is cute. Ok, maybe some do, but when the community is that huge containing a wide range of individuals from all walks of life, and the brand proved to be a benchmark in the industry, such comments have no logical foundation. For them most likely doesn't matter how you call them, they are happy with their choice.

I am not happy with many things in BMW late decisions, but does not made me leave. I love the brand and if we have a problem, we addressed, express it, complain about it, to help make it better. I am with this brand in harsh times too, that's what a real fan is.

Not the last, I am really sick of seeing names like "badge whores".
If we think properly, a whore is person that has no loyalty and is moving from one to another.

Many posts in here are "too modest" and futile. Bottom line, in here, we are a group of BMW (!) enthusiasts. If someone does not like our affinity to the brand, we promise to respect his choice.

And as a note, I had so much interest in Cadillac, that never have even the curiosity to sit in one... Just not appealing to me in any way.

Last edited by Teutonic; 08-27-2015 at 12:15 PM..
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      08-27-2015, 12:13 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
I am actually in the same boat with this guy. Regardless how good one car can get, there are things that keeps you bonded to a brand. It is not all about power or price. I am kind of sick to see how all the BMW fans are slapped all the time with all kind of epithets. Stop being judgemental, not everybody in here is a brand seeker, the majority just enjoy the package of a well built car that managed properly to be a summary of driving atributes.
People identify themselves with a certain brand due to the fact that its products have certain atributes that are appealing to them. For me, my car is expressing my personality, my needs, my expectations

It makes me laugh too when I see individuals that start pointing at fans because they love a brand. They don't love it because is cute. Ok, maybe some do, but when the community is that huge containing a wide range of individuals from all walks of life, and the brand proved to be a benchmark in the industry, such comments have no logical foundation. For them most likely doesn't matter how you call them, they are happy with their choice.

I am not happy with many things in BMW late decisions, but does not made me leave. I love the brand and if we have a problem, we addressed, express it, complain about it, to help make it better. I am with this brand in harsh times too, that's what a real fan is.

Not the last, I am really sick of seeing names like "badge whores".
If we think properly, a whore is person that has no loyalty and is moving from one to another.

Many posts in here are "too modest" and futile. Bottom line, in here, we are a group of BMW (!) enthusiasts. If someone does not like our affinity to the brand, we promise to respect his choice.

And as a note, I had so much interest in Cadillac, that never have even the curiosity to sit in one... Just not appealing to me in any way.
Nothing wrong with being an enthusiast and dedicated to a brand. I, like you, am hugely loyal to BMW and love the cars for their strengths and weaknesses. I agree that sticking with the brand through harder times is a real test. I too am not interested in any of BMW's current offerings except the X1 which I want just to drive my dogs around. I will wait for their next release of cars and perhaps something then will capture my attention (m2 maybe?) but right now I am pretty set 2013 and backwards.

I do not however bash everything OTHER than a BMW and admire other brands for making good stuff. I don't have to be the exact target market of these other competitors to respect what they do. Will I buy a Mustang GT350R? Likely no, its not a fit for me, but I love what Ford is doing and congratulate them for building the car and advancing their products so far.

There are a ton of close minded people in here, who simply drink the BMW Kool-Aid and hate and discredit every other brand because they are NOT BMW's. You can be loyal and dedicated to BMW and be open minded. (which i believe you to be)
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      08-27-2015, 01:07 PM   #202
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So I guess they'll come up with N3 first... People shopping for BMW M cars will now start considering Hyundai N?
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      08-27-2015, 01:29 PM   #203
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I am a fan of cars, not car brands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
I am actually in the same boat with this guy. Regardless how good one car can get, there are things that keeps you bonded to a brand. It is not all about power or price. I am kind of sick to see how all the BMW fans are slapped all the time with all kind of epithets. Stop being judgemental, not everybody in here is a brand seeker, the majority just enjoy the package of a well built car that managed properly to be a summary of driving atributes.
People identify themselves with a certain brand due to the fact that its products have certain atributes that are appealing to them. For me, my car is expressing my personality, my needs, my expectations

It makes me laugh too when I see individuals that start pointing at fans because they love a brand. They don't love it because is cute. Ok, maybe some do, but when the community is that huge containing a wide range of individuals from all walks of life, and the brand proved to be a benchmark in the industry, such comments have no logical foundation. For them most likely doesn't matter how you call them, they are happy with their choice.

I am not happy with many things in BMW late decisions, but does not made me leave. I love the brand and if we have a problem, we addressed, express it, complain about it, to help make it better. I am with this brand in harsh times too, that's what a real fan is.

Not the last, I am really sick of seeing names like "badge whores".
If we think properly, a whore is person that has no loyalty and is moving from one to another.

Many posts in here are "too modest" and futile. Bottom line, in here, we are a group of BMW (!) enthusiasts. If someone does not like our affinity to the brand, we promise to respect his choice.

And as a note, I had so much interest in Cadillac, that never have even the curiosity to sit in one... Just not appealing to me in any way.
You openly admitted that you will buy these cars even if they are not the best choice available, all things considered.

See what I said about "subjective brand loyalty". And then re-read what you wrote about what you believe is perceived as a "benchmark".

Well done. You wasted a lot of time proving my point.
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      08-27-2015, 01:32 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
IMO, this concept is much more similar to the Renault 5 Turbo or Clio V6 Renault Sport. Both of these cars started out life as front-drive hatchbacks, just like the Veloster. The Stratos was a legit mid-engine coupé from the start. IMO, it's in a slightly different league from a sports car perspective. The Stratos was always kind of a Lamborghini-lite. It's no coincidence, seeing that Gandini was the primary designer for the Stratos project.

The underlying chassis of the RM15 seems to be a mid-engine layout design from the start, without being an adaptation of a front engine chassis fitting then a mid-engine position. The shape of the body of the veloster is applied to the exterior, and only in the form of the shape. The captions in the figures state the body is deformable. And this is why it would seem to be a close call to the Stratos intent. I.e. mid-engine from the start. Yes the Stratos was a lot a like a mini Lambo... and what a car!!
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      08-27-2015, 01:36 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hikeskool View Post
I am a fan of cars, not car brands.



You openly admitted that you will buy these cars even if they are not the best choice available, all things considered.

See what I said about "subjective brand loyalty". And then re-read what you wrote about what you believe is perceived as a "benchmark".

Well done. You wasted a lot of time proving my point.
"Not the best choice" is subjective. People buy cars for different reasons and have different expectations.

I got into BMW's as a kid. My father had a 6series and I fell in love with it. I didnt care if it was the fastest and price didnt even matter to me at the time. It was an emotional connection that lasts to today and much of my loyalty to bmw is fueled by it.

There is a distinction of having brand loyalty to a company both in product and in heritage VS being a blind close minded fan boy.
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      08-27-2015, 01:40 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
There is a distinction of having brand loyalty to a company both in product and in heritage VS being a blind close minded fan boy.
I always love hearing people explain how they are "enthusiasts" and DEFINITELY NOT FANBOYS. And, of course, they can easily point out those who are!

But, again, in explaining the attributes, these "enthusiasts", personally, are DEFINITELY NOT FANBOYS.
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      08-27-2015, 01:57 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hikeskool View Post
I am a fan of cars, not car brands.
You openly admitted that you will buy these cars even if they are not the best choice available, all things considered.

See what I said about "subjective brand loyalty". And then re-read what you wrote about what you believe is perceived as a "benchmark".

Well done. You wasted a lot of time proving my point.
I think that you are practicing the "selective" understanding.
I never said anywhere that These cars "are not the best choice available". Maybe for me they are. If Cadillac is the best choice available, Keep in mind that that is your own opinion. I have the right to choose based on my own knowledge, education, and -why not- perceptions. Beeing a fan is not something based on numbers, price, but a certain amount of feelings that are involved. If you are a logic fan, you are not a fan, you are just a shopper or an opportunist. There is a difference between materialistic choice and an emotional choice. And driving feelings, pleasure, happiness, confidence, response, perception, all are emotional atributes of a human being.
In regards with the "benchmark" note, BMW is a benchmark. As a proof just look at this thread right here, at the letter they choose, the colors, the aspirations they have. Enough said.
Like my colleague "ilikebmxbikes" said, there are things that can not be bought or replaced by another letter. History, heritage, experience, feeling, design, philosophy, everything is what contributes to an image that is very appealing to some people.
I didn't prove anything from what you said. I just see that you are playing a "you said, I said" game that I am not willing to be a part of.
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      08-27-2015, 02:02 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
I think that you are practicing the "selective" understanding.
I never said anywhere that These cars "are not the best choice available". Maybe for me they are. If Cadillac is the best choice available, Keep in mind that that is your own opinion. I have the right to choose based on my own knowledge, education, and -why not- perceptions. Beeing a fan is not something based on numbers, price, but a certain amount of feelings that are involved. If you are a logic fan, you are not a fan, you are just a shopper or an opportunist. There is a difference between materialistic choice and an emotional choice. And driving feelings, pleasure, happiness, confidence, response, perception, all are emotional atributes of a human being.
In regards with the "benchmark" note, BMW is a benchmark. As a proof just look at this thread right here, at the letter they choose, the colors, the aspirations they have. Enough said.
Like my colleague "ilikebmxbikes" said, there are things that can not be bought or replaced by another letter. History, heritage, experience, feeling, design, philosophy, everything is what contributes to an image that is very appealing to some people.
I didn't prove anything from what you said. I just see that you are playing a "you said, I said" game that I am not willing to be a part of.
See what I said above about the lengths "enthusiasts" will go to when rationalizing their (clearly) non-fanboy proclivities.
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      08-27-2015, 02:12 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
That's because you are not able to see the difference between some terms; so it was assumed that we can show you where you are wrong. But, you are right, it was a waste of time from my part. Sometimes, some efforts are just made in vain, and it is smart to stop when there is no receptivity.
rolleyes.jpg
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      08-27-2015, 02:25 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hikeskool View Post
I always love hearing people explain how they are "enthusiasts" and DEFINITELY NOT FANBOYS. And, of course, they can easily point out those who are!

But, again, in explaining the attributes, these "enthusiasts", personally, are DEFINITELY NOT FANBOYS.
im not disagreeing with your point toward the close minded people on here, just making a point to note it isnt black and white.
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      08-27-2015, 02:40 PM   #211
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hey man, you're not agreeing with me, so I'm going to start an argument because I think I'm the superior being, and you are wrong. I'm also going to write a long response to show you how smart I am and then you will understand. Wow guys, wow.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I can't wait to see hyundai's final product!
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      08-27-2015, 02:50 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
im not disagreeing with your point toward the close minded people on here, just making a point to note it isnt black and white.
I understand there are subjective facets of every car that are not easily quantified such as looks, sounds, comfort, etc. I also understand that there are quantifiable metrics (bhp, stopping distance, curb weight, door count, price, etc.) that simply do not mean much, if anything, to many buyers.

What I am saying is that it is ridiculous to buy a car if it it does not objectively meet the acceptable criteria of the owner SIMPLY BECAUSE of "brand loyalty", "enthusiasm", "heritage", etc.

Further, it is even MORE ridiculous to ceaselessly espouse the merits of this nonsensical practice.
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      08-27-2015, 04:21 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hikeskool View Post

What I am saying is that it is ridiculous to buy a car if it it does not objectively meet the acceptable criteria of the owner SIMPLY BECAUSE of "brand loyalty", "enthusiasm", "heritage", etc.

.
if you are saying it is ridiculous to buy a car, that does not actually meet the buyer's needs, because it appeals to "brand loyalty" "enthusiasm", "heritage", etc. - yeah, i think we all agree.
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      08-27-2015, 04:58 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by norsairius View Post
Good for them. I don't understand the negativity when a "sub-par" brand wants to try something (I, for the record, do not consider Hyundai "sub-par"). At worst, I'm neutral in such situations. If you look at the bigger picture, when companies compete, the consumer always wins.

Even if the cars can't match BMW on the "total package" with things like interior quality, etc., as long as the cars drive competently and are fun, then I could see enthusiasts who emphasize the experience over the badge cross-shopping these. Many will see the price/other nuances as a great compromise.

If these "N" cars don't end up competing with BMW, it's at least another company trying something to show that there's a market for fun cars and as long as that market is proven to exist, then automakers will continue to be motivated to make those fun cars for us gearheads.

At worst, they flop and it won't make any real difference to what you drive anyway. I doubt it'll be this bad though considering their hiring of BMW's (now former) M-division chief engineer.

If Hyundai's proven anything in the last 10 years, it's that they know how to turn a ship around. Think about how their brand perception and quality has changed in that time frame.

Even if you don't like Hyundai, you still win. I'm anxious to see what they come up with, but I'm going to wait and see before I make any further judgments.


let's dig out this tread in 10-15 years. We'll see where KIA and Hyundai are then. It's a first step, and a great one!
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      08-27-2015, 04:59 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
If this reflects what they have been able to package into a Genesis sedan at that price point, then BMW will have something to worry about.

product >> badge
Cuz enthusiast
That new Genesis is absolutely amazing for the money. And great looking.
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      08-27-2015, 05:33 PM   #216
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      08-27-2015, 06:19 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckbilodeau View Post


let's dig out this tread in 10-15 years. We'll see where KIA and Hyundai are then. It's a first step, and a great one!
I will make a mental note to do so.
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      08-27-2015, 07:35 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norsairius View Post
Good for them. I don't understand the negativity when a "sub-par" brand wants to try something (I, for the record, do not consider Hyundai "sub-par"). At worst, I'm neutral in such situations. If you look at the bigger picture, when companies compete, the consumer always wins.

Even if the cars can't match BMW on the "total package" with things like interior quality, etc., as long as the cars drive competently and are fun, then I could see enthusiasts who emphasize the experience over the badge cross-shopping these. Many will see the price/other nuances as a great compromise.

If these "N" cars don't end up competing with BMW, it's at least another company trying something to show that there's a market for fun cars and as long as that market is proven to exist, then automakers will continue to be motivated to make those fun cars for us gearheads.

At worst, they flop and it won't make any real difference to what you drive anyway. I doubt it'll be this bad though considering their hiring of BMW's (now former) M-division chief engineer.

If Hyundai's proven anything in the last 10 years, it's that they know how to turn a ship around. Think about how their brand perception and quality has changed in that time frame.

Even if you don't like Hyundai, you still win. I'm anxious to see what they come up with, but I'm going to wait and see before I make any further judgments.
Agreed. I hate blind loyalists, just appreciate that there is competition. BMW is still a good brand but it gets away w/ some stuff relying upon its cache, e.g. how can a car so expensive not have everything that a $2x,xxx car has...? It should have everything it has and more, not less!


Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
...
Moving up from crsx. How's everything?
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      08-27-2015, 07:54 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
No just a few decades... Again when BMW moved into the automotive market their initial cars where crap too. They also got fucked for a bit after WWII and got stuck making only pot/pans and home appliances for a few years.
Yes the ke word is "for a bit". The Korean company has been making cars since the early eighties and they still are perceived as cheap. That's that's over thirty years of making automobiles. Doubt it took BMW that long....
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      08-27-2015, 07:56 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
I will make a mental note to do so.
, they've been making cars for over 30 years...doubt much will change in the next 10 or 15
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