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      01-15-2020, 10:41 AM   #23
///Monika
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I don't think they misspoke. Looks as if the HPFP line to rail is flex with a right angle SS line (both ends). Should/may look stock 'ish once the engine cover is removed.

Any thoughts on when/IF the LPFP should be replaced ?

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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Yeah I asked about the fuel line going from the hpfp all the way back to the lpfp and they said yes, I may have to double check.
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      01-15-2020, 11:03 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
On the n55 cam profile using dorch engineering's numbers yes 7% is the calculated value. Looking at data points from other B58C pump users there is an improvement but logs show an hpfp crash with only a bit more ethanol or boost vs. the stock n55 pump.

It's no where near plug and play, you have to do alot of modifications and you have to Dremel the bottom of your intake manifold. Imo I wouldn't cheap out on an hpfp. There are better places to save money like intakes and downpipes.

You should do alot more research on hpfps before deciding which route to go.
Hard to swallow $1,300 for a fuel pump when I have no plans to upgrade the turbo or run E. Absolutely silly.
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      01-15-2020, 12:02 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
Hard to swallow $1,300 for a fuel pump when I have no plans to upgrade the turbo or run E. Absolutely silly.
How is your stock hpfp crashing when you don't run Ethanol and are stock turbo? That shouldn't be happening unless you have a notoriously weak hpfp, as you shouldn't be able to Max out the hpfp on pump gas as the octane isn't high enough for the small F series n55 turbo to push high boost levels especially in the summer when iat's climb.

That's being said if you are able to diy I'd skip the B58C and go for the B58D hpfp. I wouldn't recommend buying used since hpfps are known to fail with age and you never know what you might get. Remember it's not a clean cut job.
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      01-15-2020, 12:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Monika View Post
I don't think they misspoke. Looks as if the HPFP line to rail is flex with a right angle SS line (both ends). Should/may look stock 'ish once the engine cover is removed.

Any thoughts on when/IF the LPFP should be replaced ?
Not sure about fuel line compatibility and have yet to ask, but their lines do look like what competitors offer so it should fit idk. They should also offer the proper an fittings for their hpfp too, so likely if you ask they could make a line that fits.

Generally speaking direct injection requires less pressure from the lpfp than port injection since the hpfp will pressurize the fuel to what is required for the direct injectors. That's why we see car with just an hpfp upgrade being able to hit huge horse power numbers with the stock lpfp.

That being said I would personally upgrade the lpfp if you're running PI as well, or running over E35 since ethanol is corrosive and lacks lubrication vs pump gas so you'd want an ethanol compatible pump. It's hard to give a solid number since we don't have an lpfp sensor, but since e35 should be able to Max out a PS2 and get 550whp I'd say if you had a stage 1 pump and were unable to Max out ps2 before your hpfp rail pressure drops you'd need an lpfp. So essentially if you're unable to achieve the power your hpfp is suppose to be able to support you'd need an lpfp.

You should probably upgrade the lpfp when running ful
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      01-15-2020, 12:28 PM   #27
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Tuning related question, but since it’s linked to necessary HPFP fuel flow I’ll ask it here:

Is there a certain E mix where there are little to no gains on our platform vs full E85? Or is it completely turbo & tune dependent?

For instance, if I upgrade the HPFP, can I get more power out of my Dinan turbo with higher than E30? If so, any idea the right E mix and how much more HP before we’re boosting out of its efficiency range and creating unwanted high IATs?

And, what are the answers to these questions if I switch to a PS2?

Thanks!
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      01-15-2020, 12:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Is there a certain E mix where there are little to no gains on our platform vs full E85? Or is it completely turbo & tune dependent?
Honestly it's mostly trail and error when experimenting with ethanol mixtures, looking at logs and contrasting that with your goals. For example people who just need octane can expect to Max out ps2 with anywhere from E35-E50 depending on their altitude, iat's, mods etc and don't really need to exceed this. There have been users that have hit 700 whp on E50 when using the appropriate sized turbo and intercooler. So for those individuals there is no need to go pass E50 and worry about ethanol causing a lack of lubrication in the cylinders, fuel pumps, and possible drying out seals which generally gets worse past 50% concentration. However those of us who seek to use ethanol for it's evaporative cooling effect in reducing cylinder temps will want to run as much ethanol as possible to help the motor run cooler for track use. For example motoiq reported a drop of 20-30įF (iirc) when using full e85 on both coolant and oil temps. But when using this concentration of ethanol you'll need a top cylinder lube like what power plus cells to keep ethanol from causing lubrication based issues. Of course a fuel stabilizer to prevent moisture from ending up in the ethanol is important too. For me I'm going to run full e85 especially since it's available at the pump now where I live.

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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post

For instance, if I upgrade the HPFP, can I get more power out of my Dinan turbo with higher than E30? If so, any idea the right E mix and how much more HP before we’re boosting out of its efficiency range and creating unwanted high IATs?
Probably not the stage 1 turbo upgrades are already being pushed to the max even on pump gas. You'll likely be pushing the turbo out of it's efficiency range. You'll likely be able to run richer afrs though with an upgrade hpfp which is good. A really general idea to figure out if you're passing the efficiency range check the amount of power you gain with 1 psi increase vs. how much more the iat's spike. If iat starts to increase more than power you're starting to pass the efficiency range. Otherwise with full turbo upgrades they usually come with efficiency range charts. Altitude plays a huge roll too, the higher you are the harder your turbo has to work.

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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
And, what are the answers to these questions if I switch to a PS2?
You'll probably be able to hit 500 whp on E35, and depending on your intercooler you may need a bit more in the summer when iat's spike.
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      01-15-2020, 01:01 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
How is your stock hpfp crashing when you don't run Ethanol and are stock turbo? That shouldn't be happening unless you have a notoriously weak hpfp, as you shouldn't be able to Max out the hpfp on pump gas as the octane isn't high enough for the small F series n55 turbo to push high boost levels especially in the summer when iat's climb.

That's being said if you are able to diy I'd skip the B58C and go for the B58D hpfp. I wouldn't recommend buying used since hpfps are known to fail with age and you never know what you might get. Remember it's not a clean cut job.
My HPFP seems to crash once winter came. Was stable in summer. BM3 Stg2 93Oct.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e18b4b2c090c660d027da23
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      01-15-2020, 01:02 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Honestly it's mostly trail and error when experimenting with ethanol mixtures, looking at logs and contrasting that with your goals. For example people who just need octane can expect to Max out ps2 with anywhere from E35-E50 depending on their altitude, iat's, mods etc and don't really need to exceed this. There have been users that have hit 700 whp on E50 when using the appropriate sized turbo and intercooler. So for those individuals there is no need to go pass E50 and worry about ethanol causing a lack of lubrication in the cylinders, fuel pumps, and possible drying out seals which generally gets worse past 50% concentration. However those of us who seek to use ethanol for it's evaporative cooling effect in reducing cylinder temps will want to run as much ethanol as possible to help the motor run cooler for track use. For example motoiq reported a drop of 20-30įF (iirc) when using full e85 on both coolant and oil temps. But when using this concentration of ethanol you'll need a top cylinder lube like what power plus cells to keep ethanol from causing lubrication based issues. Of course a fuel stabilizer to prevent moisture from ending up in the ethanol is important too. For me I'm going to run full e85 especially since it's available at the pump now where I live.



Probably not the stage 1 turbo upgrades are already being pushed to the max even on pump gas. You'll likely be pushing the turbo out of it's efficiency range. You'll likely be able to run richer afrs though with an upgrade hpfp which is good. A really general idea to figure out if you're passing the efficiency range check the amount of power you gain with 1 psi increase vs. how much more the iat's spike. If iat starts to increase more than power you're starting to pass the efficiency range. Otherwise with full turbo upgrades they usually come with efficiency range charts. Altitude plays a huge roll too, the higher you are the harder your turbo has to work.



You'll probably be able to hit 500 whp on E35, and depending on your intercooler you may need a bit more in the summer when iat's spike.
Thanks.

Hearing all this, I’ll probably just run E47-48 (half E10, half E85) so I don’t have to constantly calc Emix amounts when filling up, or take extra lubrication precautions if using full E85. I know ethanol concentration varies in E85, so some safety would be baked into any custom tunes I do.

For now I’ll upgrade the HPFP and continue to run the BM3 Stg 2 E30 map with my Dinan turbo so I can run E47-48 year round.

Maybe later this year I’ll upgrade the turbo and then do a couple custom tunes: one for the street with max power and good for a few pulls, and one for the track that’s dialed back to help keep IATs in check.

It sounds like Dorch or Spool Stage 1 HPFP’s will be good enough for this plan, but if Stage 2 is only a couple hundred bucks more I’ll jump on one of those.
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      01-15-2020, 02:27 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
My HPFP seems to crash once winter came. Was stable in summer. BM3 Stg2 93Oct.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e18b4b2c090c660d027da23
Mine was crashing on my custom tune - I'm running the stock tune now until I can figure something out. $800 for a plug and play solution is ideal - I know the B58 pump (non Supra) requires cutting the bracket. I wasn't aware that anything else was needed.
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      01-15-2020, 03:45 PM   #32
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In many cases, bad fuel quality is the reason for stuttering or spitting engines with a dme tune.
I don't think, your hpfp is the faulty part in your setup, but the tune itself is. Bet, you have to check the fuel-flow map in your file. Seems like it asks for to much fuel in the mid-range. A less aggressive tune with a more linear increase of boost pressure to higher rpm's could already solve your problem.
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      01-15-2020, 03:53 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
My HPFP seems to crash once winter came. Was stable in summer. BM3 Stg2 93Oct.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e18b4b2c090c660d027da23
Probably a case of poor quality winter gas. Gas stations tend to put alot of crappy additives during the winter which also drops octane.

Like for me in Canada petro Canada imo has a really shitty winter gas imo which drops octane. Husky has really consistent gas all year round.
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      01-15-2020, 03:58 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andi-M2 View Post
In many cases, bad fuel quality is the reason for stuttering or spitting engines with a dme tune.
I don't think, your hpfp is the faulty part in your setup, but the tune itself is. Bet, you have to check the fuel-flow map in your file. Seems like it asks for to much fuel in the mid-range. A less aggressive tune with a more linear increase of boost pressure to higher rpm's could already solve your problem.
Yeah, I don't think so, I'll post a log that I have.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1661914
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      01-15-2020, 03:59 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Thanks.

Hearing all this, Iíll probably just run E47-48 (half E10, half E85) so I donít have to constantly calc Emix amounts when filling up, or take extra lubrication precautions if using full E85. I know ethanol concentration varies in E85, so some safety would be baked into any custom tunes I do.

For now Iíll upgrade the HPFP and continue to run the BM3 Stg 2 E30 map with my Dinan turbo so I can run E47-48 year round.

Maybe later this year Iíll upgrade the turbo and then do a couple custom tunes: one for the street with max power and good for a few pulls, and one for the track thatís dialed back to help keep IATs in check.

It sounds like Dorch or Spool Stage 1 HPFPís will be good enough for this plan, but if Stage 2 is only a couple hundred bucks more Iíll jump on one of those.
No probs!
Just remember anytime you're running ethanol you're susceptible to ethanol related wear and tear from a lack of lubrication, regardless of concentration. You also have to remember to run fuel stabilizer.

You can also get an Ethanol sensor to ensure you get the correct ethanol mix (well close to since it's actually a hydroscopic sensor)

In regards to the dinan turbo you probably won't see too much gain from E35-E50 just better in cylinder combustion temps.
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      01-15-2020, 04:44 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Probably a case of poor quality winter gas. Gas stations tend to put alot of crappy additives during the winter which also drops octane.

Like for me in Canada petro Canada imo has a really shitty winter gas imo which drops octane. Husky has really consistent gas all year round.
Sounds more like Halim needs to redo the tune. I messaged him but haven't heard anything back.
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      01-15-2020, 06:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Sounds more like Halim needs to redo the tune. I messaged him but haven't heard anything back.
I wouldn't says it's the tuners fault, bad winter gas is normal your tune just doesn't account for it. During winter you should probably run a less agressive map to account for poor fuel quality, unless you have access to really consistent fuel.

It is more likely to be because IAT's dropped in the winter vs. summer allowing you to run more timing and boost which the car doesn't see in the summer since IAT's are high the car pulls timing and boost. So the increased boost and timing on the winter will require more fuel causing your hpfp to crash.

Bad fuel can also be a part of it since the additives also can make the car run a bit leaner requiring more fuel and thus putting more strain on the hpfp. My sti used to run alot leaner on winter gas blends vs. husky who sold consistent gas, and this was the result all year round.
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Last edited by F87source; 01-15-2020 at 06:39 PM.. Reason: Typing on a phone sucks.
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      01-15-2020, 06:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
I wouldn't says it's the tuners fault, bad winter gas is normal your tune just doesn't account for it. During winter you should probably run a less agressive map to account for poor fuel quality, unless you have access to really consistent fuel. Atleast my sti used to run alot richer when I used poor quality gas.

It is more likely to be because IAT's dropped in the winter vs. summer allowing you to run more timing and boost which the car doesn't see in the summer since IAT's are high the car pulls timing and boost. So the increased boost and timing on the winter will require more fuel causing your hpfp to crash.

In your case it's likely to be more related to lower iat's, I was trying to answer your post while chiming in on what someone else said about poor fuel quality.
If the tune is provided as safe for the general population, then it is in fact the tuner's fault as they provided something unsafe for the general population.

Also, I wouldn't automatically attribute it to "bad winter gas" as air density is quite different in the winter. Cooler air is more dense, and more dense air needs more fuel. Nor attribute it to the tune adding more boost and timing in winter (because the logs show the same boost and timing across seasons)
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      01-15-2020, 06:49 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
If the tune is provided as safe for the general population, then it is in fact the tuner's fault as they provided something unsafe for the general population.

Also, I wouldn't automatically attribute it to "bad winter gas" as air density is quite different in the winter. Cooler air is more dense, and more dense air needs more fuel. Nor attribute it to the tune adding more boost and timing in winter (because the logs show the same boost and timing across seasons)
Yeah I didn't see your logs, so I'm just saying what it could possibly be since i can't open datazap or bm3 logs properly on mobile so I couldn't take a look. For example if your car was pulling timing and boost during the summer and all of a sudden iat's are low enough it no longer knocks then it can utilize more boost than the summer requiring more fuel. But in your case that's not it.

Take a look at your MAF data and see how much more air the MAF sees in the winter vs the summer. Also was your hpfp psi extremely close to it's targets during the summer? Because like you said increased air density during the winter could be enough to crash the hpfp if it was already struggling in the summer.

Bad fuel has always caused my sti to run leaner than normal until it deviated so far I would get weird fuel dumps. I'm just pointing this out since it was always a route of my problems in my sti days, again I'm not a tuner so a real tuner would be able to provide the best advice I'm just here to chime in with what I know and I do make mistakes.

I still would not say it's the tuners fault, the map ran fine in the summer and now conditions changed it is having issues. You can't really expect alot from an ots map made for a wide range of cars. That's generally why I stay far away from canned tunes, there's no such thing as one size fits all while trying to push the envelope. The only one sized fits all tune is the stock one since it factors in all the hardware for all conditions.
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      01-16-2020, 11:37 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
No probs!
Just remember anytime you're running ethanol you're susceptible to ethanol related wear and tear from a lack of lubrication, regardless of concentration. You also have to remember to run fuel stabilizer.

You can also get an Ethanol sensor to ensure you get the correct ethanol mix (well close to since it's actually a hydroscopic sensor)

In regards to the dinan turbo you probably won't see too much gain from E35-E50 just better in cylinder combustion temps.
Follow up question for you, Sir:

For hot summer days at the track, where do you think the larger turbo, boost, Emix, and IAT balance is in terms of additional HP over my current setup (BM3 Stg 2 E30, Dinan turbo, Wagner Evo II Comp, HJS 300-cell DP)?

Overall, can I really expect much of a consistent HP gain on track in the summer without additional IATs?

Or, am I still stuck with doing Meth, custom oil cooler, larger FMIC, and/or custom liquid to air IC no matter what?

It would be great to add “more efficient” power, but it seems wishful that higher HP won’t yield higher IATs.
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      01-16-2020, 03:35 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Follow up question for you, Sir:

For hot summer days at the track, where do you think the larger turbo, boost, Emix, and IAT balance is in terms of additional HP over my current setup (BM3 Stg 2 E30, Dinan turbo, Wagner Evo II Comp, HJS 300-cell DP)?

Overall, can I really expect much of a consistent HP gain on track in the summer without additional IATs?

Or, am I still stuck with doing Meth, custom oil cooler, larger FMIC, and/or custom liquid to air IC no matter what?

It would be great to add “more efficient” power, but it seems wishful that higher HP won’t yield higher IATs.
That's an extremely difficult question as this varies alot depending on climate, altitude, driving style etc. Anyone who had a magical number for you would likely be lying imo as this is hugely variable per car.

First my question is:
What's your power goals, and what are your cooling mods? Because the stock cooling system can barely keep a stock tuned car cool under track conditions.

In regards to iats as you increase boost iat's will rise with it, in order to get a hp gain without too much additional iats get an upgraded turbo that can flow more air at a lower boost which can translate to more power without or even an iat drop.


You'll likely need a larger oil cooler and radiator with a tuned setup for consistent performance in 30įC + weather during the summer, you likely won't need a custom setup untill you upgrade the turbo past stage 1 all though this can vary. You probably won't need an air to water intercooler setup, meth would be helpful but you likely won't need that either with ethanol, since higher octane fuels helps combat high iat's. Just check your logs and see if iat's cause timing to be pulled, it shouldn't happen when running E30, although your hpfp can crash on the track.

It's possible if you get a really large turbo that runs lower boost, your iat's post intercooler will be lower than running a smaller turbo at high boost and out of it's efficiency range and the power will be the same in both cases. However more power means more heat and you'll run into cooling system issues.
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      01-16-2020, 03:47 PM   #42
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Quote:
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That's an extremely difficult question as this varies alot depending on climate, altitude, driving style etc. Anyone who had a magical number for you would likely be lying imo as this is hugely variable per car.

First my question is:
What's your power goals, and what are your cooling mods? Because the stock cooling system can barely keep a stock tuned car cool under track conditions.

In regards to iats as you increase boost iat's will rise with it, in order to get a hp gain without too much additional iats get an upgraded turbo that can flow more air at a lower boost which can translate to more power without or even an iat drop.


You'll likely need a larger oil cooler and radiator with a tuned setup for consistent performance in 30įC + weather during the summer, you likely won't need a custom setup untill you upgrade the turbo past stage 1 all though this can vary. You probably won't need an air to water intercooler setup, meth would be helpful but you likely won't need that either with ethanol, since higher octane fuels helps combat high iat's. Just check your logs and see if iat's cause timing to be pulled, it shouldn't happen when running E30, although your hpfp can crash on the track.

It's possible if you get a really large turbo that runs lower boost, your iat's post intercooler will be lower than running a smaller turbo at high boost and out of it's efficiency range and the power will be the same in both cases. However more power means more heat and you'll run into cooling system issues.
The later pages in my two threads below have some details, including some of your previous thoughts:

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1568593&page=4
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1525790&page=3

If I could get another 40-50whp reliably on track, Iíd be pretty damn happy. Altho, I donít have much appetite right now to go with custom cooling mods, so Iím still trying to determine the best path.

I guess the only real path is to add the power and see what happens. Just feels like Iíll still be screwed when it comes to cooling.
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      01-16-2020, 07:16 PM   #43
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Quote:
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The later pages in my two threads below have some details, including some of your previous thoughts:

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1568593&page=4
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1525790&page=3

If I could get another 40-50whp reliably on track, Iíd be pretty damn happy. Altho, I donít have much appetite right now to go with custom cooling mods, so Iím still trying to determine the best path.

I guess the only real path is to add the power and see what happens. Just feels like Iíll still be screwed when it comes to cooling.
Ok I'll check out your thread.

The issue is with air to air intercooler cars BMW decided to save some space by chopping nearly 1/4 off of the radiator so the intercooler can slide in underneath. So the real issue is water temps, you can solve a large majority of that with an AC delete CSF radiator which is still PnP. That should (again hugely variable and difficult to predict) get you up to 420 whp on a hot summer day doing 30+ min sessions. That should be 50 whp more than dinan stage 2. Oil temps would then be the issue, but the CSF or ER kit should be able to do 400ish whp. That's probably still 30 whp over dinan. If you want more than that it's going to require custom cooling setups.
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      01-17-2020, 01:10 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Monika View Post
Odd, we did inquire about the SS hard line. This was their answer when asked:

They told you differently ?
Update:
Their website shows an F series chassis option for the fuel line and N55 engine, this is available for both their long line from HPFP to tank and short line which is from the HPFP to oem fuel line.

So I guess I was correct.
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