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      12-06-2018, 03:44 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Looking for a recommendation. Currently undecided between the Wagner Evo 1 and Evo 2 Competition. Want tube and fin for light weights.

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Stock downpipe (maybe will upgrade to sport cat one day, but fear the noise)
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Bootmod3 Stg 1 or Stg2 93 octane

I'm gonna experiment with both tunes. I know it says Stg2 needs a downpipe, but I plan on flashing it and looking at the logs to see what's up. Also may switch back to stock tune for winter. My driving is mostly street and some woodsy curvy roads for fun. I live in Pennsylvania and 1-2 months per year we will see 100f somedays, so I'm not in a really hot climate.
If you are going to be running stage 2 maps (you will need a downpipe), get Wagner EVO II for best results
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      12-06-2018, 04:20 PM   #134
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So is this wager still on or what?
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      12-11-2018, 09:30 AM   #135
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      12-11-2018, 11:44 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post

As a starting point for reference:
1) What is the weight of your intercooler? CSF's is +/- 30 pounds
2) What is the height of the front face of the VRSF intercooler? CSF is 9.41 inches tall
3) How many rows of cooling bar/plate stack height do you have on your core? CSF has 17 rows
4) What is the thickness of the bottom core? CSF is 5.5 inches thick (not 6.5 inches thick)
5) You can confirm there is no modifications to install your intercooler? full plug and play like the CSF.


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Been waiting for answers since I posted..

When it comes to a real "race car" intercooler - you would have to be pretty foolish to hang over 40 pounds off the front of your car. We can't even get simple answers to simple questions it's not just about a single 2-3-4 pull...We wanted to do full testing with a variable dyno and actual road testing. I reached out through many channels. no response.
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      12-12-2018, 01:47 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
I apologize for the delay! We're in the middle of moving our shop down to our new Miami location. I have logs from 1 installed comparison so far, just waiting on the other 2.

Rather than waiting for CSF to agree on testers we just purchased multiple intercoolers and sent them to customers. We want at least 3 independent reviewers that hold repute on this platform to negate the idea of brand preference.
Wow that's great to hear! I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

Hope you guys can get race track data too, and data on the HD street cores as not many of us track guys use the race cores.
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      12-12-2018, 04:51 AM   #138
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I'm interested to know about the results as well. As the FMIC is my next mod
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      12-12-2018, 06:33 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
I apologize for the delay! We're in the middle of moving our shop down to our new Miami location. I have logs from 1 installed comparison so far, just waiting on the other 2.

Rather than waiting for CSF to agree on testers we just purchased multiple intercoolers and sent them to customers. We want at least 3 independent reviewers that hold repute on this platform to negate the idea of brand preference.
And so what tests exactly are these customers performing?
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      12-12-2018, 09:31 AM   #140
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Seeing as this is the Ultimate intercooler thread, what are the opinions of the new Mishimoto n55 cooler. i don't see how the angled top half of the cooler is effective, as it seems to block air flow to the cooler through the kidney grills, or maybe I'm wrong.
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      12-12-2018, 11:18 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristosD View Post
Seeing as this is the Ultimate intercooler thread, what are the opinions of the new Mishimoto n55 cooler. i don't see how the angled top half of the cooler is effective, as it seems to block air flow to the cooler through the kidney grills, or maybe I'm wrong.
Did Mishimoto release their F chassis intercooler?
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      12-12-2018, 11:25 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristosD View Post
Seeing as this is the Ultimate intercooler thread, what are the opinions of the new Mishimoto n55 cooler. i don't see how the angled top half of the cooler is effective, as it seems to block air flow to the cooler through the kidney grills, or maybe I'm wrong.
Did Mishimoto release their F chassis intercooler?
They're accepting pre orders. Requires modifying the front brace though. Terrible design imo when so many other options are plug and play
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      12-12-2018, 02:10 PM   #143
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Noting that this is an IC rather than CC thread, has anyone tried fitting the S55 CC plumbing to an N55 without - physically - changing anything else? BMW presumably went to the trouble for valid engineering reasons rather than model differentiation, so I'm interested in the result.

Last edited by M Fifty; 12-12-2018 at 02:11 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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      12-12-2018, 02:16 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Noting that this is an IC rather than CC thread, has anyone tried fitting the S55 CC plumbing to an N55 without - physically - changing anything else? BMW presumably went to the trouble for valid engineering reasons rather than model differentiation, so I'm interested in the result.
There was a guy who did it on the E series 135i, there's a thread around somewhere his name is jrturboawd. He did have to Fab up some stuff through, but the s55 air/water intercooler did fit directly onto the n55.
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      12-12-2018, 02:17 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
We don't have the opportunity to conduct and fund significant testing for multiple intercoolers so we'll have to settle on the original wager details which was strictly based on intake temp reduction over one gear. We'll also including a 2-5 gear pull along with cool down logs.
Well since you guys paid for the coolers, wouldn't it be fair for CSF to cover testing cost? Because as an end user this is the opportunity for us to see all aspects of performance, because if the cooler can only drop IAT's while it blocks flow to the other radiators in the car, or heats soaks over time that wouldn't be optimal for track guys.
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      12-12-2018, 02:30 PM   #146
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I'm currently running with a fabspeed sportcat, MPE and a drop in filter. I'm looking to add an FMIC and chargepipes to run with a stg2 tune. Will the CSF introduce any additional turbo lag? Any downsides to it and/or should I be looking at a different one? My local mech. is offering me a CSF along with VRSF pipes, wondering if that will be my best bet or not.
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      12-12-2018, 04:58 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Well since you guys paid for the coolers, wouldn't it be fair for CSF to cover testing cost? Because as an end user this is the opportunity for us to see all aspects of performance, because if the cooler can only drop IAT's while it blocks flow to the other radiators in the car, or heats soaks over time that wouldn't be optimal for track guys.
Doesn't seem like they want to include CSF in the testing or planning. They went ahead without talking to them so each agreed on the process. I wouldn't if I was CSF. Was a dick move showing VSRF rather hurt reputations than do things together. And not agreeing on the process beforehand just leaves it open for disagreements in unfair testing, which invalidates everything.

Last edited by Anthony1s; 12-12-2018 at 05:04 PM..
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      12-12-2018, 05:19 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Doesn't seem like they want to include CSF in the testing or planning. They went ahead without talking to them so each agreed on the process. I wouldn't if I was CSF. Was a dick move showing VSRF rather hurt reputations than do things together. And not agreeing on the process beforehand just leaves it open for disagreements in unfair testing, which invalidates everything.
Maybe they were worried or knew their thick race cores may drop IAT's but sacrifice so much airflow to the radiator it was unsuitable for long track use, hence they only wanted to do iat tests. Maybe on the track the CSF intercooler with it's tube design was able to shed heat quicker after slow low air flow turns which cause heat soak, and the vrsf couldn't idk.

But it would beneficial to test both coolers under the widest range of circumstances now while testers are available to do so, than do one test and claim one product is better in all circumstances due to one variable and have that circulate on the forum forever.

I don't even understand why doing different tests would be more expensive, like does it cost more to do additional pulls? I understand track testing would cost money and repetive Dyno pulls would as well but that's what vendor collab would be for right? (Plus did the wager include something about same power level but lower temps? So wouldn't a Dyno be required anyways? So one pull on the street + logs wouldn't satisfy it right?)
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      12-12-2018, 06:22 PM   #149
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There are brands who are simply reselling intercoolers made elsewhere. they're either buying cores (mostly overseas) and welding their own tanks, or simply buying the entire unit and branding it their own.
There is a "basic" consumer in this business who falls for the "thickest core" "densest fin pack" "this or that", etc, etc..
there is also a customer who is in motorsports, and understands their has to be a harmonious balance between the weight, performance of the cooler, and airflow into the rest of the system.

I've now asked 3 times (twice before) - what is the weight of the VRSF cooler, and other basic specs which would help in comparison.. no answers.

if you want to buy the biggest and the densest core because that is what you think is the best, there is a option for that. If you want to buy a true motorsports "proven" solution, there is CSF.

To give you an idea.. I had a visitor today. The owner of PWR - the cooling company the manufacturers all of the cooling products for all F1 and Nascar teams. This is the level that CSF is at, not buying alibaba cores online, and giving forum guys purchased samples (no transparency) the option to test.

If you want to do a single pull, and call it a day - i'll hack up the front of an M2, hang a bus intercooler in front of it, and show you low IAT's - a single pull, or 1 round of pulls.. what is that going to accomplish? That you have a very big intercooler? but do you win races, and can you keep the car cool in 100 degree heat in a BMW CCA wheel-to-wheel event?

this is what CSF is all about, and this is where we try and bring the best combination of value, performance, and quality to the broader aftermarket.
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      12-12-2018, 07:17 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
There are brands who are simply reselling intercoolers made elsewhere. they're either buying cores (mostly overseas) and welding their own tanks, or simply buying the entire unit and branding it their own.
There is a "basic" consumer in this business who falls for the "thickest core" "densest fin pack" "this or that", etc, etc..
there is also a customer who is in motorsports, and understands their has to be a harmonious balance between the weight, performance of the cooler, and airflow into the rest of the system.

I've now asked 3 times (twice before) - what is the weight of the VRSF cooler, and other basic specs which would help in comparison.. no answers.

if you want to buy the biggest and the densest core because that is what you think is the best, there is a option for that. If you want to buy a true motorsports "proven" solution, there is CSF.

To give you an idea.. I had a visitor today. The owner of PWR - the cooling company the manufacturers all of the cooling products for all F1 and Nascar teams. This is the level that CSF is at, not buying alibaba cores online, and giving forum guys purchased samples (no transparency) the option to test.

If you want to do a single pull, and call it a day - i'll hack up the front of an M2, hang a bus intercooler in front of it, and show you low IAT's - a single pull, or 1 round of pulls.. what is that going to accomplish? That you have a very big intercooler? but do you win races, and can you keep the car cool in 100 degree heat in a BMW CCA wheel-to-wheel event?

this is what CSF is all about, and this is where we try and bring the best combination of value, performance, and quality to the broader aftermarket.
+1
Only issue is your IC is really expensive, I understand you have to pay more to get all the additional benefits but there comes a point where you have to factor in performance/$.

For example I live in Canada where it snows alot and then salt and gravel the roads so my intercooler fins tend to be extremely bashed up after 2 years of driving so I tend to have to replace it. So the question becomes is it worth it for a bit of extra performance (achievable with water injection and a larger more efficent stage 3 turbo) or save cash on frequent replacement?
I'd love to run CSF on my m2 but at $599 I can't justify that unless it's a huge significant improvement over the competition in both flow and iat management which I wanted to see on this test. If it was say $450-$499 I could swing it and go for it.
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      12-12-2018, 09:39 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
There are brands who are simply reselling intercoolers made elsewhere. they're either buying cores (mostly overseas) and welding their own tanks, or simply buying the entire unit and branding it their own.
There is a "basic" consumer in this business who falls for the "thickest core" "densest fin pack" "this or that", etc, etc..
there is also a customer who is in motorsports, and understands their has to be a harmonious balance between the weight, performance of the cooler, and airflow into the rest of the system.

I've now asked 3 times (twice before) - what is the weight of the VRSF cooler, and other basic specs which would help in comparison.. no answers.

if you want to buy the biggest and the densest core because that is what you think is the best, there is a option for that. If you want to buy a true motorsports "proven" solution, there is CSF.

To give you an idea.. I had a visitor today. The owner of PWR - the cooling company the manufacturers all of the cooling products for all F1 and Nascar teams. This is the level that CSF is at, not buying alibaba cores online, and giving forum guys purchased samples (no transparency) the option to test.

If you want to do a single pull, and call it a day - i'll hack up the front of an M2, hang a bus intercooler in front of it, and show you low IAT's - a single pull, or 1 round of pulls.. what is that going to accomplish? That you have a very big intercooler? but do you win races, and can you keep the car cool in 100 degree heat in a BMW CCA wheel-to-wheel event?

this is what CSF is all about, and this is where we try and bring the best combination of value, performance, and quality to the broader aftermarket.
Fully agree.

For something that was supposedly going to be a meaningful joint comparison effort, there appears to be a distinct lack of transparency from the other vendor. I don’t understand why VRSF would feel the need to buy CSF’s intercoolers for comparison - I’m sure CSF would have contributed those??

As a consumer I wouldn’t be terribly convinced by a set of logs from a single run.
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      12-12-2018, 10:29 PM   #152
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Why don’t you guys quit making this a CSF vs VRSF thing, and grab some Dinan, Wagner, and other IC’s and show testing, pros/cons, and price points.

That was the whole point of Mike starting this conversation, and it’s now turned into another worthless, stupid Internet forum thread.
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      12-12-2018, 11:01 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
So did you design that intercooler or did ATM? Because what you're selling is a relabeled ATM which is made in China. I mean we're driving cars made in Germany and communicating with devices made in China, I really don't think the country a product is made is relevant. BTW your import records aren't that difficult to pull up

I'm proud of the fact that VRSF designed/engineered/tested the f30 Race intercooler from the ground up in house, in the US. The same goes for the e90 race intercooler which holds multiple n54 world records. I understand that you only offer one intercooler for this platform which is why you keep stressing the importance of "balance" and I completely agree which is the exact reason we offer 3 different intercoolers for this platform. We don't have to compromise nearly as much since we offer multiple flavors ranging from the daily commuter to the 10 second drag car.



Are you really trying to go back on your word by adding stipulations to your original wager? This was about your current intercooler vs the VRSF Race FMIC through one pull.

The questions you're asking have no relevance to the wager you made. They're questions that should have been asked before you threw $5k on the table. It's a bit obvious that you got caught with your pants down before bothering to take the time to research the competition. If you want to back out of your original wager by attempting to add stipulations we'll just have to post the results anyway and donate for you.

For everyone else who wanted to see an actual intercooler comparison, you can expect a more thorough comparison in the spring after we've finished moving into our new facility. I know you guys wanted something more comprehensive but we simply can't commit the time to a proper comparison during the holidays.
Well I'm just excited to see some data.

I also did see that ATM on the other forum claim CSF stole their B tune fin design or something about that in regards to their intercoolers idk, it's not my place to say.

Btw what does lifetime warranty cover? Does that include fin damage from rocks? Because if it does then it's a no brainier for me to pick that option.

Edit- if you guys could get some street core data that'd be great too.

Last edited by F87source; 12-12-2018 at 11:11 PM..
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      12-13-2018, 12:11 AM   #154
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This "competition" has degraded to the point that there is a lot of mis information.. So we'll just let it be what it is..
Somehow Tiago thinks we're sourcing an intercooler from some other factory than our own. If you can check import logs, please check the over 450 containers, and over 500,000 parts that came from CSF factories... It's a family business, privately owned factories or joint ventures (due to local laws) and we've sold over 35 million coolers worldwide.. We're operating on a different level than you, it's just simply the facts.

In regards to the CSF intercooler versus others on the market.
There is still only 1 intercooler for the N55 platform worldwide that has TUV approval in Germany. That is CSF's. I believe even Wagner, a German company does not have this certification. This certification is the highest for aftermarket parts in the world. Means that it meets or exceeds performance, durability, and reliability standards to the OEM part.

- We've had to invest significant money into getting this certification, and the engineering / R&D of a motorsport part is not cheap. Hence, you get what you pay for.. You may be paying a little bit more for a CSF intercooler, but you're also getting a part made by a Tier-1 OEM supplier To some people this is worth the higher price.

CSF's n55 intercoolers come with a protective powder-coating that can also withstand salt corrosion.
All CSF products are tested in house on the following machines: wind-tunnel, vibration, salt spray, thermal cycle and burst pressure..

I'd be happy to answer any questions about the product, and also refer to videos, logs, and race results from teams and drivers that are independently published online.
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