[Bee Pee]

Originally Posted by Carrera2RS

Well alas the Suspension secrets will not fit on the non competition cars, so I after watching the useful video on this thread I will hopefully hear back from Millway regarding the timing of the supply for the street camber plates or look at a UK supplier of Vorshlage

Might be worthwhile calling ST suspension to ask if they sell their XTA adjustable top mounts seperately as, unlike KW's camber plates, ST's have bolt holes for M2 and M2C braces...photos in the attached illustrate the subtle difference between KW and ST top mounts.

You'd need to ask if these will fit with stock conical springs...

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...27&postcount=1

[Carrera2RS]

Tks, looks like the Millway are now back in stock so hopefully my back order will come through with the street plates for my non comp M2. Hopefully fitted next month at Litchfield

[kthor703]

I like that the TCKline Camber plate uses the factory mounting hardware and strut bearing. Seems like a simple design and they have the spherical bearings on their site as replacements easily available.

I had the GC plates on my previous m235i and always had a slight rattling noise on broken payment (common in Michigan where I live). I could live with it, but don't want to if I can avoid or minimize it with another option. The stud design for the strut dome mounting also made it a little harder to install, since you need more clearance to get things in.

Personally not a fan of the impact install method needed for the Vorschlag plate.

Decisions...

[Carrera2RS]

Okay, here’s my view after 250 miles

Well Litchfield fitted the chamber plates and my alignment is now

-2.4 with 3 minutes of toe in front and -2.05 with 6 mins of toe in rear. Not sure what it was before but the front plates are showing 9 and 11mm I crudely measured 1.75 degrees

So all good, the first impression and after some miles the harshness does seem to have reduced or it’s me getting used to it. I’m not convinced the turn in is any better, it feels more precise and loaded up the front feels like it holds more comfortably and it’s more precise. But there is transmission through the chassis that somehow makes the car feel cheaper and the feel has improved but not enough for me to counter the feeling of greater nvh transmission. Also for me the front and back show differences over bumps I can feel the absorption at the back and lack of it at the front.

I very much like how it’s pulled the top of the rims in a little and that looks better a more factory plus look with et22’s

Yes it’s feels sharper but I’m actually more aware of the slight deadness at the centre of the steering and in a way the layer of damping removing a little feel but hiding some of the imperfections isn’t such a bad thing.

Whilst it’s not harsh in an obvious way the road noise has gone up, especially surface changes are more noticeable than before. The BMW feel has swapped a little at the front for a lower class car, the dash exhibits a bit of noise and things in your door card are vocal more often.

Right now I am thinking of swapping back I had to have a small bit of machining done as well on the camber plates to fit the AST suspension. I don’t think this will make them unsellable. But clearly the price has come down. £520 on the plates £450 for machining and 4 wheel alignment and corner weighting etc. Monday I’m on the phone to see if I can save my Original parts, they are not in the car and book in reverting back to stock. How frustrating, I’m also not a comfort kind of guy, I never hit the comfort button in any car, my other car is a 991 GT3 I’m about to take that out and see how that compares. This has solid topmounts if I recall.

[Carrera2RS]

Okay, a trip out in the GT3, all the things you would expect, much better throttle response, sharper steering, tighter transmission etc.

I have two settings on the GT3 normal and sport, the sport is very stiff and whilst not harsh you are very aware there is zero compliance so you just get thrown around too much on the road. The damping is much stiffer and spring rates much stiffer in all settings. So driving in normal setting and comparing. The GT3 is much taughter and you are very aware it’s running significantly higher spring rates, and the dampers are in greater control. But it’s not harsh you can feel the road without any unnecessary nvh, it’s very taught but very well damped. You get thrown around but the car does an amazing job of absorbing the bumps given how high the spring rates must be. I can’t recall the suspension settings but it’s more camber sensitive than the M2 for sure.

Driving out straight away you are aware that any nvh is well absorbed and whilst you feel road surfaces they don’t seem to be transmitted through the front and steering in the same way as the M2 does now. The standard M2 car is blunter and duller but both cars are good at avoiding the hard mount transmission of noise and vibration

The plates are coming off and I’ll have to accept reduced camber and clearances

[Carrera2RS]

Maybe I’m too fussy but I dislike the small but noticeable nvh transmission. I remember fitting solid subframe mounts to a GTi years ago, I felt the same about them. This is not as bad but it’s a dialled down version

Always been happy with poweflex bushes etc and updated Coilover suspension. The Dinan M5 kit didn’t go far enough for me and I replaced with KW V3 and was very happy. So I’m normally more tolerant than most

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Carrera2RS

The plates are coming off and I’ll have to accept reduced camber and clearances

This reminds me of experiences on former cars. I'm impressed with the stock M2C suspension in terms of firmness while still retaining a lot of suppleness (in NVH) over nasty pavement. My former E39 M5 with GC camber plates and monoballs turned into a very harsh NVH transmitter over pavement like that, and it was astounding how nice it was to return it to stock.

[EDWYER]

Vorshlag ones look like it was painted at Pep boys.

[Billy_BMW]

Originally Posted by Carrera2RS

Maybe I’m too fussy but I dislike the small but noticeable nvh transmission. I remember fitting solid subframe mounts to a GTi years ago, I felt the same about them. This is not as bad but it’s a dialled down version

Always been happy with poweflex bushes etc and updated Coilover suspension. The Dinan M5 kit didn’t go far enough for me and I replaced with KW V3 and was very happy. So I’m normally more tolerant than most

Sorry to hear your camber plate experience hasn’t been great. I’m running the Suspension Secrets version on my M2C which uses the same monoballs used on the 991GT3 RS, (German-made Carl Hirschmann), there is some noise on very bad roads, but it’s a consequence of a lack of insulation in the top mount itself, not faulty components. Any track components will naturally bring the balance of a road-car more towards a motorsport setup and the additional NVH can sometimes be a difficult balance to justify, especially if you’re not tracking the car. But if you do, the camber plates will quickly yield better turn-in and minimise outer tyre wear. Corner speeds with Cup 2 or above can actually be staggering.

I think the harmonics of the chassis also play a part as some cars will transmit more NVH at key points easily - the M2 is a very firm car from the factory and the stiff bushings and bracings will easily transmit more noise if you strengthen certain components - which will show up in curious areas e.g. door cards etc.

I will say though, I think it’s a little unfair to compare the M2, a high volume production car based on a 2 series bodyshell, to a bespoke sportscar like the 991 GT3. The latter having bespoke Bilstein, adaptive monotube shocks with very high spring rates and much more sophisticated damping. Not to mention, different dimensions, suspension layouts and a price difference of nearly 3-6x of a base M2. The M2 is a good car for what it is, arguably BMW’s best compact performance model; but it’s no GT3 and nobody buying a GT3 will cross-shop an M2.

[Carrera2RS]

I hear you regarding the comparison. But for me the M2 was only marginally blunter with steering and accuracy before and when I back to backed with original camber plates was more like a smaller scale sports car not as sharp as the GT3 but more forgiving and smoother over bad surfaces. This is with Litchfield suspension only

[Carrera2RS]

Maybe the suspension secrets are better but they are not available for the non comp cars

[Carrera2RS]

My current plan is to go back to stock top mounts and add the negative camber hubs, the hubs will be about £650, I wish I’d thought this though before blowing £520 on Millway street camber plates...... I have booked a slot at the end of August for the fitting.

I have done quite a bit of measuring and thinking �� as the front AST struts sit only 5mm away from the tyre to spring seat on the inside. Hence the reason I went et22 when moving from stock wheels to 9.5 width alloys (6.5 mm wider each side and 7mm further out from the hub, so effectively stock inside clearance) The clearance remained the same so maths worked. if the -30 degree hub is because the hub mounting face is machined differently (I can’t see how else they could add the camber) then the wheel will kick out at the bottom by a few mm and in at the top by a few mm. I think the point on the inside will move in by 2.5mm at the critical point so it will be tight. Worse case I grind a bit off the edge of the alloy spring plate at the critical point.

Again more *** packet maths at what the additional .75 degrees of camber ( I went to just under 2.5 from around 1.7 or so) might be needed at the top mount I came up with 8-9 mm and they show 9-11 so I think I’m correct(ish) !

[Bee Pee]

Originally Posted by Carrera2RS

Maybe the suspension secrets are better but they are not available for the non comp cars

Good excuse to buy/retrofit the M2C alloy strut brace

[Bee Pee]

Originally Posted by Billy_BMW

I think the harmonics of the chassis also play a part as some cars will transmit more NVH at key points easily - the M2 is a very firm car from the factory and the stiff bushings and bracings will easily transmit more noise if you strengthen certain components - which will show up in curious areas e.g. door cards etc.

Billy - good point re stiff body and increased resonance. M2C is likely stiffer than OGM2 with alloy/CFRP bracing upfront.

I'm on the fence about CP's as I have camber correction hubs c/w MPerf c/overs and it's a good compromise for DD and occasional TD's. I've dialogued a fair bit with Matt at suspension secrets re his camber plates. I like the high end bearing choice + serrated adjuster channel so as plates can't slide if bolts come loose.

Is DD NVH ever present with SS CP's compared to oem top mounts ?

BP

[iWayne]

FWIW, I have the Vorshlag plates on my M2C. Not really any noticeable NVH noise etc but my installer did mention that there's some gasket or something that should be transferred from the stock suspension that helps with that.

[Billy_BMW]

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

Billy - good point re stiff body and increased resonance. M2C is likely stiffer than OGM2 with alloy/CFRP bracing upfront.

I'm on the fence about CP's as I have camber correction hubs c/w MPerf c/overs and it's a good compromise for DD and occasional TD's. I've dialogued a fair bit with Matt at suspension secrets re his camber plates. I like the high end bearing choice + serrated adjuster channel so as plates can't slide if bolts come loose.

Is DD NVH ever present with SS CP's compared to oem top mounts ?

BP

In all honesty Dave, there is a minor increase in NVH and on some rocky/bad surfaces, while the dampers are ‘damping’, you will get some slight knocking noise. Add to the fact that there’s no foam insulation like the standard top mounts mean that you hear more of the knock sound on very bad roads. I tend to avoid these even before camber plates, so you may have to slow down if you regularly drive bad roads. On normal flat roads, not a peep.

I also had the Millway thrust arm bushes installed, so combined with the Camber plates, V3’s and Cup 2 tyres, my car is definitely not a comfortable car per se, but then I didn’t buy it for comfort.

If you have the OEM camber hubs and are running near enough 2 degrees or thereabouts, with no plans to increase for track days, I’d actually say you don’t need them.

I’m running approx 2.3* up front on a relative OEM ride height and in all honesty, don’t have any need to move them further. In hindsight, as I never track the car, I wish I’d saved the money and not bothered! But that’s no reflection on the plates as they are fantastic quality and look like they’ll last. The real benefit comes when you’re running Cup 2 or bespoke track tyres, on twisty circuits where the added camber will increase tyre longevity and improve turn in.

So unless you’re tracking the car and envisage using more than 2.3* and want the adjustability, I’d suggest to keep your setup and invest in Cup 2’s for track work. When they get hot, the grip is seriously impressive. Hope that helps.

[Carrera2RS]

Is it easy to check the part numbers on your existing hubs I’m about to order the negative camber hubs but just want to double check the originals are unadjusted on both sides

[n8dgr84]

Just got the Millway Street plates on and can tell a difference in NVH but it's not too horribly invasive. I would say it increased interior noise through the floorboards mostly by a couple dB. Also noticed a little more buzzing from the panels as per Carrera2RS. If people say they don't feel or hear anything then they aren't in tune with their vehicle.

One question I have is do these raise the ride height? I installed Dinan suspension at the same time and so should have the front a little lower. Seems like stock height. Maybe it just needs some time to settle...?

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by n8dgr84

One question I have is do these raise the ride height? I installed Dinan suspension at the same time and so should have the front a little lower. Seems like stock height. Maybe it just needs some time to settle...?

They're the same thickness as stock top mounts so there shouldn't be a change in ride height from them.

[MR RIZK]

Originally Posted by n8dgr84

Maybe it just needs some time to settle...?

As a generalisation linear coil over springs settle about sub 2% of the spring length.

[n8dgr84]

Originally Posted by MR RIZK

As a generalisation linear coil over springs settle about sub 2% of the spring length.

I got the Dinan HAS to 608mm bottom of rim to fender on the front end with about 3mm more adjustment. It was 613mm straight off the jack stands so the test drive is a good thing to do!

[MR RIZK]

Originally Posted by n8dgr84

I got the Dinan HAS to 608mm bottom of rim to fender on the front end with about 3mm more adjustment. It was 613mm straight off the jack stands so the test drive is a good thing to do!

The term settling in this convo is two different things. You saw it drop after driving cause everything seated once you drove it around the block. What I'm saying is the height will lower a bit more post your drive around the block. Re measure in a couple hundred miles and it will probably be lower.