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      10-12-2020, 04:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by kpaso View Post
I know a lot of factors affect this, but what PSI would you start at cold to get them to 38 PSI hot? I'm just curious.

I've been able to get 35+ PSI hot at Laguna when starting out as low as 26 PSI cold.
Typically, Iíd start the day at 28 on the outside and 29 on the inside, run a shortish session, then let a bit more air out. Usually 1-2 PSI unless conditions also changed. Occasionally Iíd have to let a bit more out after the second session, or in the afternoon if the track temps had warmed up substantially, but I check throughout the day until I see them stabilize.

Great to hear more input on the GY SC3. Thatís looking like a contender when you take both size and performance into account.

What are everyoneís thoughts on the OD of 35 vs 40 series tires on a 255f/275r set? Would you let one or the other steer your decision much? 40 series is closer to stock OD (same as M3/M4 fitment), but 35 series gives a few additional options.

Lots more options in a 265 or 275/35r18 square setup, but would prefer to consider staggered options for now. Might ultimately head that direction though.
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      10-12-2020, 05:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by iBrakeLate View Post
I wish it was the case here, they are pretty much the same price as a set of A052's in the USA.

I have a lot of laps on multiple sets of A052's, I should be able to give you a fair comparison.
I assume you’re getting them from Phil’s?

$200/set cheaper than A052 in the sizes I run, maybe a different spread for your sizes: https://philstireservice.com/shop/nankang-ar-1/
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      10-12-2020, 05:34 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Here's the performance test that includes the Supercar 3. No idea about longevity, tho:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=255
Keep in mind that test used 245s. The 275+ sizes are of a different construction..and supposedly test better. As I reported elsewhere, I subjectively found the SC3s to be as fast as the Bridgestones...maybe faster...and don’t get greasy.
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      10-12-2020, 05:34 PM   #26
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CrashFL - you have had a taste of grip - there is no way you're going to be okay with going backwards now

The heat was a bit rough this weekend - almost 100* for his last two track days. Think the heat accelerated the wear a bit this time, plus he is fast.

The RT660 sound promising, hopefully they live up to the hype. A0052 wear too fast. The GY Supercar's sound like a good one to try. Although they are slower than RE71s - I love NT01's for grinding out laps (wear great and are extremely consistent throughout their lifespan) - but not so fun in the wet. To me cup2's are an option if you are hard to fit.

Unfortunately this level of tire is a lot about finding which compromise works best for you. Starting to get into the tradeoff of wear for speed. Also if you only take one set of tires to the track want to make sure they wet friendly imo. All this with the size constraints of the F87 platform can be a bit of a headache.
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      10-12-2020, 05:35 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I assume youíre getting them from Philís?

$200/set cheaper than A052 in the sizes I run, maybe a different spread for your sizes: https://philstireservice.com/shop/nankang-ar-1/
265/35/18 Fronts
295/30/18 Rears

AR1's from Phil's is $1196.00 shipped.


265/35/18 Fonts
295/35/18 Rears

A052's from Tire Rack is $1221.47 shipped.
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      10-12-2020, 06:06 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by M2C AW View Post
Keep in mind that test used 245s. The 275+ sizes are of a different construction..and supposedly test better. As I reported elsewhere, I subjectively found the SC3s to be as fast as the Bridgestones...maybe faster...and donít get greasy.
True. SC3 looks like an option for a square setup, but I use 295-305 in the rear for a staggered setup.
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      10-12-2020, 06:10 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by iBrakeLate View Post
265/35/18 Fronts
295/30/18 Rears

AR1's from Phil's is $1196.00 shipped.


265/35/18 Fonts
295/35/18 Rears

A052's from Tire Rack is $1221.47 shipped.
I'm looking at the exact same sizes for my setup. $1305+ shipping for A052 from TR, which comes out ~$150/set more than AR1's.

You got a handy TR discount you're using?
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      10-12-2020, 06:32 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I'm looking at the exact same sizes for my setup. $1305+ shipping for A052 from TR, which comes out ~$150/set more than AR1's.

You got a handy TR discount you're using?
Just sent you a PM.

To be honest, given that I already went through two sets of A052's in the last week, I would say get the AR1's. I will probably burn off my current set on Wednesday this week (weather permitting), that way I can justify ordering the AR1's and giving them a try.
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      10-13-2020, 01:55 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
CrashFL - you have had a taste of grip - there is no way you're going to be okay with going backwards now

The heat was a bit rough this weekend - almost 100* for his last two track days. Think the heat accelerated the wear a bit this time, plus he is fast.

The RT660 sound promising, hopefully they live up to the hype. A0052 wear too fast. The GY Supercar's sound like a good one to try. Although they are slower than RE71s - I love NT01's for grinding out laps (wear great and are extremely consistent throughout their lifespan) - but not so fun in the wet. To me cup2's are an option if you are hard to fit.

Unfortunately this level of tire is a lot about finding which compromise works best for you. Starting to get into the tradeoff of wear for speed. Also if you only take one set of tires to the track want to make sure they wet friendly imo. All this with the size constraints of the F87 platform can be a bit of a headache.
This. I completely agree.

I'm not in a position to take spare tires with me to the track, which along with availability restriction drove me to Cup2. I also think having a bulletproof tire is important if it's your only set, and you like to attack curbs, and have to get home on the same set. I know there are faster tires, but for my use case they are a nice compromise.

Now I try to adjust my driving to be fairly quick, while being easy on tires to make them last. I start around 29psi cold, and don't let them get over 36. I usually have to air them down again by noon. I noticed Cup2 runs cooler by about 15C compared to Pilot Super Sport. Haven't seen them break 75C yet on the same track.

But you're spot on, having a combination of speed, drivability, durability and wet grip is a bit like solving a differential equation with 3 unknowns.
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      10-13-2020, 08:07 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
This. I completely agree.

I'm not in a position to take spare tires with me to the track, which along with availability restriction drove me to Cup2. I also think having a bulletproof tire is important if it's your only set, and you like to attack curbs, and have to get home on the same set. I know there are faster tires, but for my use case they are a nice compromise.

Now I try to adjust my driving to be fairly quick, while being easy on tires to make them last. I start around 29psi cold, and don't let them get over 36. I usually have to air them down again by noon. I noticed Cup2 runs cooler by about 15C compared to Pilot Super Sport. Haven't seen them break 75C yet on the same track.

But you're spot on, having a combination of speed, drivability, durability and wet grip is a bit like solving a differential equation with 3 unknowns.
The obvious answer is that we all need full size & fully sponsor supported trailers filled with multiple racks of all the tires we could want funded by a very generous tire sponsor. If anyone figures that out please share your secret with the rest of us!
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      10-13-2020, 02:53 PM   #33
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The M2 can fit a set of 4 tires in the back seat, so I drive to the track on PS4S on OEM rims, and carry my track tires. If it rains, I leave the PS4S on.

And if I cord out a track tire, I can still get home

I just watched some video from a GT3 that was behind me this past weekend at COTA... Between the track temps and my driving, I'm not surprised I killed the tires. But which came first, the sliding or the tires dying? Who can say.
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      10-13-2020, 03:03 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
3 days for tires? Yikes. And you guys run higher negative camber too. That's really surprising to me. What do your tire temperatures/pressures get to? I wonder if the tires get too hot and shred themselves too quickly?

I have only factory camber, and 3 days on my Cup2s, which are notorious for fast wear also, but I expect to get at least 2 or 3 more days out of them. This is what they look like after 3 days. Plenty of thread but beat up shoulders. But still no cords! I try to pay attention to temps and pressures as I run, and do cooldowns when I see temps >90C or pressures over 36psi.
Not driving hard enough lol
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      10-13-2020, 03:38 PM   #35
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Not driving hard enough lol
I guess so! I mean I'm only right at the verge of 7:5Xmin laps at the ring
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      10-13-2020, 03:55 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by CrashFL View Post
The M2 can fit a set of 4 tires in the back seat, so I drive to the track on PS4S on OEM rims, and carry my track tires. If it rains, I leave the PS4S on.

And if I cord out a track tire, I can still get home

I just watched some video from a GT3 that was behind me this past weekend at COTA... Between the track temps and my driving, I'm not surprised I killed the tires. But which came first, the sliding or the tires dying? Who can say.
That's pretty awesome! Well done sir.

I also have a spare set of tires. But they are the Winter kind. I know shame on me. I drive my track car in the winter too.
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      10-13-2020, 05:59 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashFL View Post
The M2 can fit a set of 4 tires in the back seat, so I drive to the track on PS4S on OEM rims, and carry my track tires. If it rains, I leave the PS4S on.

And if I cord out a track tire, I can still get home

I just watched some video from a GT3 that was behind me this past weekend at COTA... Between the track temps and my driving, I'm not surprised I killed the tires. But which came first, the sliding or the tires dying? Who can say.
I have a pretty good idea
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      10-14-2020, 09:51 AM   #38
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I've gone through Cup2's, NT01's, and RE71's on my M2, and in that order (Bilstein PSS10, Camber Plates, 275/35-18 square). I am now back on the NT01's for this year, which should say something.

Yeah, they suck in the rain. And unless there is a lot of standing water, they are ok in the damp. You can drive up in your street tires and switch over depending on conditions. They are otherwise great tires. Equally fast as the RE71s, possibly faster in my experience, but last three times as many days and can be abused for a full twenty minute session.
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      10-14-2020, 10:10 PM   #39
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I just had my first weekend at COTA and now I'm on the hunt for tires for December's event, so this thread is of much interest to me. I don't want to derail it, but I'm very curious about which tire might be a good fit ó I'm at a bit of a crossroads. I'm also how curious what delta in lap times you might expect to see between some of these tires.

My setup
'18 M2 DCT
÷hlins R&T
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-1.8ļ rear
Pagid RSL29 front

Last weekend I ran the stock 3-year-old Continental SportContact3 that came on the car. Even without the heat, searching for grip would be an understatement. So now I'm looking at what tire, and if I should either get 18" or 19" track setup.

OG Shark's comment about trade-offs makes a lot of sense and I think what I want is a tire/setup that isn't going to give up much on lap times but has good feel and break away properties and would last at least 2 weekends. I generally liked the way the car drove with the stock staggered sizes in terms of predictability. RS-4s may be the option as I continue to learn, but I do wonder what the delta in times would be from the RE-71R/A052/maybe even NT01 if I pick up 18" wheels. Oh... and not sure if this matters, but I like the curbs
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      10-15-2020, 11:24 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by M1500Z View Post
I just had my first weekend at COTA and now I'm on the hunt for tires for December's event, so this thread is of much interest to me. I don't want to derail it, but I'm very curious about which tire might be a good fit ó I'm at a bit of a crossroads. I'm also how curious what delta in lap times you might expect to see between some of these tires.

My setup
'18 M2 DCT
÷hlins R&T
-3ļ front
-1.8ļ rear
Pagid RSL29 front

Last weekend I ran the stock 3-year-old Continental SportContact3 that came on the car. Even without the heat, searching for grip would be an understatement. So now I'm looking at what tire, and if I should either get 18" or 19" track setup.

OG Shark's comment about trade-offs makes a lot of sense and I think what I want is a tire/setup that isn't going to give up much on lap times but has good feel and break away properties and would last at least 2 weekends. I generally liked the way the car drove with the stock staggered sizes in terms of predictability. RS-4s may be the option as I continue to learn, but I do wonder what the delta in times would be from the RE-71R/A052/maybe even NT01 if I pick up 18" wheels. Oh... and not sure if this matters, but I like the curbs
So there a few things to think about when deciding a direction to go with track wheels/tires on the F87. First - do you run DSC on or off? If run with it on then keep in mind that if the diameter of the front tire is greater than the rear then it will likely trip up the computer frequently - even just going down straights. Just something to keep in mind when deciding on tires - you have to run DSC completely off in order for this not to happen. Second - kind of constrained on widths & offsets on this platform. Just a bit of homework to do here - definitely workable solutions but the window is a bit on the smaller side to make it work here.

18 vs 19 - definitely more options in 18, imo the way to go if there is no brake clearance issues. Pricing is a bit better too - but having more options is the main benefit imo. Also want to consider tire progression - are you looking to get into faster tires in the future? If so then might not be a bad idea to make sure they are available to fit the wheel diameter & width you decide to go with.

Tire selection - besides the trades offs that you are already thinking about between the different choices - what are you looking to get out of your track time right now? Depending on what you are trying to do on track I think there are different benefits to each tire. RE71 is going to be the king for lap times in this range. From my experience RS4 as much as 4sec slower at a track like COTA - but the RS4 will last over twice as long. The NT01 is going to fall somewhere in between there while being extremely consistent down to the cords.

Also square is nice to increase lifespan. Staggered ultimately faster though if you take advantage of being able to run a bigger tire out back.
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      10-15-2020, 01:37 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
So there a few things to think about when deciding a direction to go with track wheels/tires on the F87. First - do you run DSC on or off? If run with it on then keep in mind that if the diameter of the front tire is greater than the rear then it will likely trip up the computer frequently - even just going down straights. Just something to keep in mind when deciding on tires - you have to run DSC completely off in order for this not to happen. Second - kind of constrained on widths & offsets on this platform. Just a bit of homework to do here - definitely workable solutions but the window is a bit on the smaller side to make it work here.

18 vs 19 - definitely more options in 18, imo the way to go if there is no brake clearance issues. Pricing is a bit better too - but having more options is the main benefit imo. Also want to consider tire progression - are you looking to get into faster tires in the future? If so then might not be a bad idea to make sure they are available to fit the wheel diameter & width you decide to go with.

Tire selection - besides the trades offs that you are already thinking about between the different choices - what are you looking to get out of your track time right now? Depending on what you are trying to do on track I think there are different benefits to each tire. RE71 is going to be the king for lap times in this range. From my experience RS4 as much as 4sec slower at a track like COTA - but the RS4 will last over twice as long. The NT01 is going to fall somewhere in between there while being extremely consistent down to the cords.

Also square is nice to increase lifespan. Staggered ultimately faster though if you take advantage of being able to run a bigger tire out back.
This is great . Let me see if I can answer these in a concise manner.

Do you run DSC on or off
I ran all last weekend in Traction (Euro MDM) mostly to make sure I didn't do anything stupid but also because I was running those old Contis. I may transition to DSC off in December.

What are you looking to get out of your track time right now
Goals: I want to be in the high 2:30s and then progress to advanced group ó I think this achievable with my current setup. But I also want to work on consistency, and having fun ó even though I was struggling with grip, the car was a blast moving around a lot and staying relatively neutral.
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      10-15-2020, 05:43 PM   #42
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This is great . Let me see if I can answer these in a concise manner.

Do you run DSC on or off
I ran all last weekend in Traction (Euro MDM) mostly to make sure I didn't do anything stupid but also because I was running those old Contis. I may transition to DSC off in December.

What are you looking to get out of your track time right now
Goals: I want to be in the high 2:30s and then progress to advanced group ó I think this achievable with my current setup. But I also want to work on consistency, and having fun ó even though I was struggling with grip, the car was a blast moving around a lot and staying relatively neutral.
Absolutely achievable with a decent tire setup

So both of those can really go together. Ultimately running DSC off is faster & imo a lot more fun. I really liked this tire progression when I first started -

Slow, durable tire with MDM on - I really liked the Dunlop Direzza ZIII here. Consistent grip, long lasting, and very friendly breakaway & recovery characteristics.

Slow, durable tire with DSC off - stayed on the ZIIIs until I was completely comfortable with my car control & ability to recover. The friendliness of the ZIIIs made this transition pretty smooth imo

Not as slow, still fairly durable, and very consistent (DSC off from now on) - made the jump to NT01s. Increase in speed over the Direzzas but still are fairly friendly. What I really like about them here is that they don't grease up too bad and they stay extremely consistent throughout their lifespan to the point you can actually turn your fastest lap on that set when down to the cords. Really helps having an extremely consistent tire when still new to DSC off - don't have as much of a moving target of grip degradation when working towards finding the line.

To me from this point it's where ever you want to go from there. Stickier RE71s might be it, maybe the NT01s, maybe something else, or maybe you really hate money and want to get into the real sticky stuff.

I'm definitely not saying this is the best or only way to do it - just that I feel it really worked well for me. Easier to learn to find the limit, go over it, & then get the car back with slower, more forgiving tires. A lot of people have done it with faster tires though so can certainly do that too - just think it slows down progress.

Also wouldn't recommend COTA as the first place you turn DSC off since the traffic there is typically pretty gnarly. Somewhere like Cresson, or Harris Hill might be better suited to start that process. Also Driveway Austin has (or at least did have a couple of years ago) an excellent car control class that I would highly recommend if you haven't done something like that before.

Sorry CrashFL for the thread jack
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      10-15-2020, 09:01 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post

Not as slow, still fairly durable, and very consistent (DSC off from now on) - made the jump to NT01s. Increase in speed over the Direzzas but still are fairly friendly. What I really like about them here is that they don't grease up too bad and they stay extremely consistent throughout their lifespan to the point you can actually turn your fastest lap on that set when down to the cords. Really helps having an extremely consistent tire when still new to DSC off - don't have as much of a moving target of grip degradation when working towards finding the line.

To me from this point it's where ever you want to go from there. Stickier RE71s might be it, maybe the NT01s, maybe something else, or maybe you really hate money and want to get into the real sticky stuff.
You have me about convinced to try the NT01 next summer. Friendly breakaway is something Iím looking for. Iím comfortable with DSC off on only one of the four local tracks, but havenít worked up to the others. Would like to work on that next year. Iíve relied on the DSC crutch too long.

Iíll also be splitting time with another car that has zero driver aids, so probably wise to make the transition 100% so I donít carry bad habits or laziness to the other car.
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      10-16-2020, 02:26 AM   #44
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You have me about convinced to try the NT01 next summer. Friendly breakaway is something I’m looking for. I’m comfortable with DSC off on only one of the four local tracks, but haven’t worked up to the others. Would like to work on that next year. I’ve relied on the DSC crutch too long.

I’ll also be splitting time with another car that has zero driver aids, so probably wise to make the transition 100% so I don’t carry bad habits or laziness to the other car.
No ABS is the hard one to get used to. I haven't driven a non-ABS car since 2004. And then last year I spent a day in a Caterham 7, and killed a lot of cones.

I got used to driving with Stability Control and TCS off on the Mustang. The M2 is even easier to drive at the limit, becasue of the magical active diff, and pretty much perfect chassis balance. The only place I keep the driver aids on is at the 'Ring. That place is frightening at speed.
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