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      10-16-2019, 10:41 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Maybe it's just the combination of new tires and a wet surface that produces the hop.
The laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames of reference.
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      10-16-2019, 11:55 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
The point of different driving modes is to gradually transfer more responsibility for vehicle stability to the driver.

TCS mode turns of brake traction control but maintains engine traction control
Sport mode loosens the slip thresholds at which DSC and TCS intervene
Sport + mode disables TCS completely and loosens DSC threshold while sharpening throttle reslponse
DSC Off mode turns off everything but ABS.

The point of this is to allow the driver to gradually learn how to control the car. If it was a simple All On/All Off you have the Mustang leaving Cars and coffee scenario.

But the ultimate goal is give varying support (including no support) to a driver based on their skill and support them in gaining skill.

I work in the Auto industry and I lead a team of developers working on Electronic Stability Control features and automated emergency braking functions. I'm well aware of how software intensive these systems are. Most of my employees are computer/electronics/software engineers, and some have PhDs in physics or Automotive Engineering. Definitely no metal benders here.

Here is my gripe with this thread:
I just don't understand why so many on this thread put their head in the sand about wheel hop. It does exist, and it is ultimately caused by inappropriate tuning of damping frequencies. Some OEMs have it so bad it causes propulsion half shafts to snap. But all OEMs struggle with it to a point. I'm glad a lot of M2 owners here are not affected by it. That's a good sign. But some are, and there is no need to blame the driver or the tire. Suspension design has to consider tire osculation frequency. The combination of mounting bushings, spring forces, damping rebound and compression harmonics and the oscillation frequency of the tire are the root cause.

When you push the throttle on a smooth surface all you should have to manage as a driver is wheel slip and yaw. Not hop. That's a design issue. Period.
i agree the stock dampers are under dampened. probably because BMW just transferred the m4 dampers which has a longer wheel base compared to the shorter wheel base of the m2.

i usually drive in mdm mode on crap new mexico roads and i havent had wheel hop...i've spun the tires plenty of times. Only time i had wheel hop in my car is launching the car from a uneven surface. i'm on michelin pss

i guess you can always upgrade the dampeners or install softer springs but at that point you might as well just get coil overs with custom spring rates.
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      11-17-2019, 01:52 AM   #91
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I get it BAD, even sliding sometimes.
Strange enough it FEELS like it's only happening on the right side.
Not sure if it's the ol' but diagnostics.
But I legit NEED a solution this crap drives me nuts.
'19 m2c with MPSS
Fully stock running everything from 32 PSI to 38 Psi in the rears.
It makes me really dislike this car.
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      11-17-2019, 08:33 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrOhnoez View Post
I get it BAD, even sliding sometimes.
Strange enough it FEELS like it's only happening on the right side.
Not sure if it's the ol' but diagnostics.
But I legit NEED a solution this crap drives me nuts.
'19 m2c with MPSS
Fully stock running everything from 32 PSI to 38 Psi in the rears.
It makes me really dislike this car.
Mine is almost gone now, and I believe the reason is 2 fold; wearing the rear tires (Conti's) a bit, and the colder temps. It'll be interesting to see what it's like with new Firehawk Indy tires in the future.
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      11-17-2019, 02:56 PM   #93
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The title of this thread should be "I turned off DSC, stabbed the throttle in mixed traction conditions and can't understand why I have wheel hop" .

This is driver error. I can make just about any car do terrible things if I drive them the wrong way. I can make any car oversteer, I can make any car understeer, I can make just about any car have wheel hop. I guess all of these cars are flawed and I am a great driver.
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      11-17-2019, 03:00 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
So is your (and a few others here) argument that before Stability Control and Traction control were standard, performance car Manufacturers had to give a shit about suspension and tire vibration harmonics ... but now that these systems are standard and 90 % of users donít even know how to turn them off OEMs donít have to care anymore?
Yes!! You nailed it. Fact is its more like 1% of drivers are turning DSC off and most of them know how to drive well enough to overcome these "weaknesses" you allude to. Let's see the list of cars that were developed to be driven with no DSC on in the modern era?

We can complain about the world we don't have or enjoy the one we do have. Fact is cars are better today than any other time in history. Probably better to enjoy what we have while we can.
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      11-17-2019, 04:07 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pruettfan View Post
The title of this thread should be "I turned off DSC, stabbed the throttle in mixed traction conditions and can't understand why I have wheel hop" .

This is driver error. I can make just about any car do terrible things if I drive them the wrong way. I can make any car oversteer, I can make any car understeer, I can make just about any car have wheel hop. I guess all of these cars are flawed and I am a great driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pruettfan View Post
Yes!! You nailed it. Fact is its more like 1% of drivers are turning DSC off and most of them know how to drive well enough to overcome these "weaknesses" you allude to. Let's see the list of cars that were developed to be driven with no DSC on in the modern era?

We can complain about the world we don't have or enjoy the one we do have. Fact is cars are better today than any other time in history. Probably better to enjoy what we have while we can.
I don't think I understood you message here.

This is definitely NOT driver error. I can control oversteer und undesteer just fine, I have many track days under my belt so no issues there.

But hop is another thing. Try drifting a car with hop and see how you like it. In drifting you still have to modulate the throttle to maintain right amount of slip, and hop just ruins it. And some cars do it while others don't yet you blame the driver?

That's kind of like saying that if you don't want to spin the wheels you should just not use the gas pedal. Fuck that. Let'em spin. They just shouldn't translate slip into vertical motion. And that comes down to damping, osculation harmonics and suspension setup. Nothing else.
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Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 11-17-2019 at 04:21 PM..
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      11-17-2019, 04:31 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Mine is almost gone now, and I believe the reason is 2 fold; wearing the rear tires (Conti's) a bit, and the colder temps. It'll be interesting to see what it's like with new Firehawk Indy tires in the future.
I got wheel hop constantly when temps went below 40 degrees F with stock Contis. Changed to Michelins, and no problem. I always switch to winter tires when it gets cold out, not so much for snow, but for softer rubber compound in winter.
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      11-17-2019, 05:22 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pruettfan View Post
The title of this thread should be "I turned off DSC, stabbed the throttle in mixed traction conditions and can't understand why I have wheel hop" .

This is driver error.
You've lost your mind, and must have trouble reading, since I clearly stated that this is the only car I've ever had (other than an early 80's tech Mitsubishi) that had the issue.
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      12-14-2019, 05:58 PM   #98
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I actually posted on the first page of this thread that I'd never had wheel hop and I must have jinxed myself. Twice in the last two weeks I've gotten it bad! Both times the passenger side which sounds similar to everyone else. First time was rolling onto the throttle (somewhat aggressively) in second gear leaving a parking lot, there was some water at the driveway, and the wheel starting banging up and down like crazy. Second time was a totally dry road, 70* outside, and stepping on it from a roll in first and there it goes banging up and down again.

I'm on the original MPSS, about 9k miles. Going to play with the compression/rebound on the KW to see if I can dampen it down but it really is annoying when it happens. Sounds like the rear end is trying to tear itself to pieces.
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      12-14-2019, 07:13 PM   #99
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I ran across an article from TC Kline that mentioned what sounds like a very similar situation. In that instance I'd was caused by subframe bushings being too soft. The CS has solid mounts, but I'm unsure what the other models use. Anyhow, I thought I would mention it in case there is a connection. A bad batch of bushings wouldn't wouldn't be out of the realm of possible.
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      12-14-2019, 07:20 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I ran across an article from TC Kline that mentioned what sounds like a very similar situation. In that instance I'd was caused by subframe bushings being too soft. The CS has solid mounts, but I'm unsure what the other models use. Anyhow, I thought I would mention it in case there is a connection. A bad batch of bushings wouldn't wouldn't be out of the realm of possible.
I believe the M2 (all iterations) uses solid mounts.
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      12-20-2019, 03:13 AM   #101
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If you get wheel hop, get out of the throttle immediately. It is hell on the drivetrain and is a great way to snap an axle or break your diff.

I can occasionally get hop on a hard launch with my modded M235 6mt. I could also get it in my 2012 WRX 5MT, 2003 G35 auto, 1996 Maxima 5MT, 1994 Z28 auto, 1990 CRX Si 5MT, and 1986 Accord 5MT. No car is immune to this, especially a manual that's being launched hard or an auto where the gear is manually being held.
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      12-20-2019, 10:04 AM   #102
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Driving the M2 in the cold, it likes to lose traction. I occasional get wheel hop, but as soon as I do, I get out of the throttle. Seen too many people break shit at the strip trying to power through it.

I was under the impression it was due to the stock suspension setup being too stiff, and a proper setup on some coils would alleviate it. In a video I watched on YT, one owner mentioned running a softer setup with less aggressive damping helped a ton.
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      12-20-2019, 12:06 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
I have to say, I'm 49 and have had mostly RWD manual trans cars all my life. RX-7, MR-2, Starion ESiR, Miata, S2000, Impreza STi, Exige, etc. And ALL of them would smoothly let go (even the AWD STi), especially in the rain. The Starion would get a little wheel hop here and there, but nothing major.

And this M2, I mean, it's terrible, no? I mean, it's not even fun. You're either at 10/10th's (which I'll never be) or you're hopping. Why has BMW not fixed this issue?? I mean, I can't even have a LITTLE fun in the rain.

What am I Missing?
U might want to inspect your clutch
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      12-20-2019, 02:44 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by goku7 View Post
U might want to inspect your clutch
It has nothing to do with the clutch.
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      12-20-2019, 10:30 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by goku7 View Post
U might want to inspect your clutch
It has nothing to do with the clutch.
Well atleast in a motorcycle the rear hops cause of lack of slipper clutch. Wheel hopping is because the engine speed is greater than the wheel speed right ?
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      12-21-2019, 08:17 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by goku7 View Post
Well atleast in a motorcycle the rear hops cause of lack of slipper clutch. Wheel hopping is because the engine speed is greater than the wheel speed right ?
Not at all, it's all about tension/grip/suspension in a car.
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      12-23-2019, 06:04 PM   #107
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Lots of idiots in this thread just circle jerking themselves about never experiencing wheel hop because they never try turning nannies off in the car (then they tell us we're the problem). Its funny because people who make these comments don't seem to have ever done any track days, autocross events or any sort of real performance driving. Yet we're the ones who need to learn to drive?

My 2016 hops it low traction conditions as well (its horrible in the rain). From my research its a common problem on the M3/M4 platforms as well and it can be alleviated with suspension mods like coilovers.

I personally don't want to make my car stiffer/less complaint on the road so I'm just living with it.

If anyone has anyone with real knowledge has meaningful suggestions other than "learn to drive" I'm all ears and would welcome any modification suggestions that would fix the problem without making the vehicle much stiffer on the road.

Thanks
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      12-23-2019, 07:24 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint View Post
Lots of idiots in this thread just circle jerking themselves about never experiencing wheel hop because they never try turning nannies off in the car (then they tell us we're the problem). Its funny because people who make these comments don't seem to have ever done any track days, autocross events or any sort of real performance driving. Yet we're the ones who need to learn to drive?

My 2016 hops it low traction conditions as well (its horrible in the rain). From my research its a common problem on the M3/M4 platforms as well and it can be alleviated with suspension mods like coilovers.

I personally don't want to make my car stiffer/less complaint on the road so I'm just living with it.

If anyone has anyone with real knowledge has meaningful suggestions other than "learn to drive" I'm all ears and would welcome any modification suggestions that would fix the problem without making the vehicle much stiffer on the road.

Thanks
If there has been discussion about coilovers fixing the problem, then I wouldn't look past it. Coilovers can significantly improve compliance and yield a less harsh ride than stock at the same time. Especially if looking for a good street setup. Though I would want to be certain it was a solution since they can be expensive.
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      12-23-2019, 10:44 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
If there has been discussion about coilovers fixing the problem, then I wouldn't look past it. Coilovers can significantly improve compliance and yield a less harsh ride than stock at the same time. Especially if looking for a good street setup. Though I would want to be certain it was a solution since they can be expensive.
I have coilovers and get the hop. Going to try playing with rebound/compression.
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      12-24-2019, 12:48 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint View Post
Lots of idiots in this thread just circle jerking themselves about never experiencing wheel hop because they never try turning nannies off in the car (then they tell us we're the problem). Its funny because people who make these comments don't seem to have ever done any track days, autocross events or any sort of real performance driving. Yet we're the ones who need to learn to drive?

My 2016 hops it low traction conditions as well (its horrible in the rain). From my research its a common problem on the M3/M4 platforms as well and it can be alleviated with suspension mods like coilovers.

I personally don't want to make my car stiffer/less complaint on the road so I'm just living with it.

If anyone has anyone with real knowledge has meaningful suggestions other than "learn to drive" I'm all ears and would welcome any modification suggestions that would fix the problem without making the vehicle much stiffer on the road.

Thanks
I think with something like ohlins it would probably be more comfortable in the road and fix the wheel hop.
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