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      10-22-2019, 08:56 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Do you think xdi 35 is enough for full E85, or did you go 60?

Although, I’m guessing the tuning would show no point in going E50+ with the smaller turbos. No idea for sure, tho.
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Yeah, hate to do all that custom work on a DD if I can avoid it, but sounds like it’s the only path.

I’ll probably try the Pure inlet pipe and 100% water in the cooling system on hot days to see what that does, then go from there.
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
There's like no data on this despite all the research I've done, but what it seems is that the 35 maxes out around E30 or a bit higher with a PS2, and can barely do full E85 with a stock turbo. So imo you'll need the 60 model to hit full e85.



Good luck and keep us updated!
Consensus was that the 35 should be sufficient to run full 85 - hopefully that holds up... Probably going to be a bit before we get that going but will definitely let y’all know how it pans out.

I would also be hesitant to do all those mods on a DD - if only just to not lose the AC. I don’t think I would have been comfortable with the IC conversion that we did either if it was my DD. Seeing it now I would feel comfortable doing it - but prior to that on a DD I would have wanted someone else to be the guinea pig first. Being a DD definitely makes this tougher.
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      10-22-2019, 09:48 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
Consensus was that the 35 should be sufficient to run full 85 - hopefully that holds up... Probably going to be a bit before we get that going but will definitely let y’all know how it pans out.

I would also be hesitant to do all those mods on a DD - if only just to not lose the AC. I don’t think I would have been comfortable with the IC conversion that we did either if it was my DD. Seeing it now I would feel comfortable doing it - but prior to that on a DD I would have wanted someone else to be the guinea pig first. Being a DD definitely makes this tougher.
There is no way the xdi-35 would support full e85 with an upgraded turbo, it can barely run E50 with the ps2, and most users generally only keep it at E30. I've heard it can do full e85 on a stock turbo but that's it. Probably because the 35 model only supports 35% more fuel flow and the factory hpfp is nearly maxed from the factory.

Do you have any pictures of your sir to water intercooler setup? I'd love to see it lol.
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      10-22-2019, 11:50 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
There is no way the xdi-35 would support full e85 with an upgraded turbo, it can barely run E50 with the ps2, and most users generally only keep it at E30. I've heard it can do full e85 on a stock turbo but that's it. Probably because the 35 model only supports 35% more fuel flow and the factory hpfp is nearly maxed from the factory.

Do you have any pictures of your sir to water intercooler setup? I'd love to see it lol.
Something to keep in mind is we’re on the bleeding edge to find a high Emix that works on the track for long runs. The temps are much higher than the street guys going for big hp on a run or two.

That’s not to say you’re not right, but I can easily run E35 with the stock HPFP on a hot track day. Altho, it craps out on me on E26 below 60F ambient.

Doubtful the xdi 35 can run E85 on the street on a cold day, but maybe it’s enough for a warm track day once the IATs are up? Not sure.
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      10-23-2019, 12:14 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Something to keep in mind is we’re on the bleeding edge to find a high Emix that works on the track for long runs. The temps are much higher than the street guys going for big hp on a run or two.

That’s not to say you’re not right, but I can easily run E35 with the stock HPFP on a hot track day. Altho, it craps out on me on E26 below 60F ambient.

Doubtful the xdi 35 can run E85 on the street on a cold day, but maybe it’s enough for a warm track day once the IATs are up? Not sure.
The best mixture of ethanol would probably be no higher than 85% unless running a top cylinder lube, even at 85% a top cylinder lube is recommended to ensure the alcohol doesnt cause corrosion and strip the seals of moisture and lubrication, since ethanol is an extremely effective solvent. The reason why more ethanol is better is because you get the evaporative cooling effect when ethanol burns helping to cool the cylinder.

The amount of ethanol the xdi 35 can support is mainly dependent on how much air your turbo is flowing, more than likely it will not be able to push over E50, and E30 range is where it is probably operating "happiest" and able to meet the fuel demands especially when the ecu fuel dumps when it things egts are too high.

I also looked at your logs, maybe if you targeted a bit richer afrs in the mid to high 11's you would get cooler cylinder temps, generally speaking I always had my cars (subarus and evos) in the past tuned to run richer. But with the new bmw's I am not quite sure where the happy point is with afrs since my main tuning experience with this platform was with a jb4 and bench flashes where you really had zero control over these things. But anyways a richer afr may help you out in keeping cylinder temps lower and thus lower coolant and oil temps.

Note: alot of people are misinformed due to the piggyback tuning scene, that these cars like to run lean and run like crap when tuned to run rich. The misconception comes in because the piggy backs were unable to modify AFR's to make the car run richer so the tuners just said the car hasn't seen any issue running lean (~13 range) so people misinterpret that as the car likes to run lean (it was also probably tuned that way to get better fuel economy especially since these motors are DI so they can get away running a bit leaner as the fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder). No this is not true, the car has no issue YET, running lean but that doesn't mean it likes to run lean. Next they say the car runs like crap when it is tuned for richer afrs, yes that's true but it's only misfiring because the HPFP is crashing, if you had an upgraded hpfp that wouldn't be an issue. We are lucky with the m2 since bmw has tuned this car to run significantly richer than stock F Series n55's which were regularly hitting the 13 range. But still the afr's do reach the high 12's at times and sometimes do hit 13, and I believe it would really benefit these cars to run a bit richer and never hit the 13's under load. A final thing to note is that I am not talking about off throttle and idling afrs which are fine to be lean, as you wouldnt want your car idling super rich burning fuel for no reason.

As a final rant there is so much misinformation spread by the piggy back tuning world since it was the first method of tuning for these cars that it really does bother the crap out of me. The most famous one is "how much meth do I need to hit X amount of power"....... The misconception with this is that people dont realize that with this platform the meth is supplementing fuel, and you can make the same power spraying distilled water as well (factoring in the fact that you have sufficient fueling), or spraying more 50% meth, instead of the popular trend of running 100% meth which really is only heard of on the bmw platform. This really bothers me when I hear you need 100% meth to hit the power level and water isn't helpful meth is, while in reality you need more meth because the car needs more fuel.
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Last edited by F87source; 10-23-2019 at 12:20 AM..
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      10-23-2019, 08:06 AM   #115
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Good points and this gets back to the engine tuning and hardware options. It’s easy to boost the heck out of whatever turbo to make more power, but that’s just going to create more heat.

I’ve had in my head for a while that I would upgrade the HPFP (sounds like xdi 35 will be enough for my purposes) and spend some time on the dyno to come up with two maps:

1. Higher boost & Emix for max power on the street. The fun map, where I don’t have to worry about heat bc the car has sufficient time to cool off bn WOT applications.

2. Lower boost & higher Emix for a tiny bit more power, but the objective to run cooler at the track.

Question: What PSI levels would you guys target for these kinds maps with the Dinan & PS2 turbos? Essentially, what are the efficiency ranges for these turbos before you’re starting to produce a ton of heat relative to the power gains?
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      10-23-2019, 09:25 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Good points and this gets back to the engine tuning and hardware options. It’s easy to boost the heck out of whatever turbo to make more power, but that’s just going to create more heat.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I’ve had in my head for a while that I would upgrade the HPFP (sounds like xdi 35 will be enough for my purposes) and spend some time on the dyno to come up with two maps:

1. Higher boost & Emix for max power on the street. The fun map, where I don’t have to worry about heat bc the car has sufficient time to cool off bn WOT applications.

2. Lower boost & higher Emix for a tiny bit more power, but the objective to run cooler at the track.
Sounds like a good plan, however Dyno tunes are not representative of the conditions such as air flow on the street/track. For example my sti was tuned on the Dyno to get the initial map and it didn't knock or anything because the fans kept it from heat soaking. As soon as I took it on the street I would get heat soaking at the traffic lights and the result was feedback knock I wasn't getting on the Dyno. On the track my car over heated when it never did on the Dyno so that was also different.

What I ended up doing was using the Dyno to get a base map and having my tuner sit shotgun and make live tuning adjustments while I drove on the street and the track till all the issues were ironed out. This was extremely expensive but the end result was a better driving car than oem (since Subarus have crap factory tunes) and I solved all the issues I had on the Dyno.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Question: What PSI levels would you guys target for these kinds maps with the Dinan & PS2 turbos? Essentially, what are the efficiency ranges for these turbos before you’re starting to produce a ton of heat relative to the power gains?
Dinan: ~17psi.

PS2: ~22psi.

It's honestly dependent on your altitude, waste gate duty cycles and logs, generally speaking if the turbo can me boost till redline you're in it's efficiency range.

A good tuner will be able to identify this and balance iats, fuel trims, afrs ignition timing, and boost etc. Instead of the generic idea that boost=power and nothing more. This is the importance of a Dyno tune to suit your altitude and use as maps aren't one size fits all.
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      10-23-2019, 07:42 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
There is no way the xdi-35 would support full e85 with an upgraded turbo, it can barely run E50 with the ps2, and most users generally only keep it at E30. I've heard it can do full e85 on a stock turbo but that's it. Probably because the 35 model only supports 35% more fuel flow and the factory hpfp is nearly maxed from the factory.

Do you have any pictures of your sir to water intercooler setup? I'd love to see it lol.
Not going to argue with you on the 35, I have my doubts too. Will see how it goes.

Here's what we had a couple of weekends ago in the mad rush to make it to the track Saturday morning for the initial shakedown. We added the Precision Raceworks ignition kit so now there are coils everywhere (not much room left!) and also upgraded to a more discreet strap for this last weekend.

Will be making a proper pipe & prettying everything up. A lot going on with the conversion that's not really visible in the pic - I'm going to do a write up on it & the turbo after we get the tune nailed down.

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      10-23-2019, 09:00 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
Not going to argue with you on the 35, I have my doubts too. Will see how it goes.

Here's what we had a couple of weekends ago in the mad rush to make it to the track Saturday morning for the initial shakedown. We added the Precision Raceworks ignition kit so now there are coils everywhere (not much room left!) and also upgraded to a more discreet strap for this last weekend.

Will be making a proper pipe & prettying everything up. A lot going on with the conversion that's not really visible in the pic - I'm going to do a write up on it & the turbo after we get the tune nailed down.

Wow very nice! How are your iats looking?

Ps: be careful with the stock air to water intercooler there have been some reports of them leaking.
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      10-24-2019, 11:47 AM   #119
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Wow very nice! How are your iats looking?

Ps: be careful with the stock air to water intercooler there have been some reports of them leaking.
Yeah we definitely will be keeping an eye on the whole system for leaks. Piecing it together like we did definitely needs to be watched.

I'll start posting logs when we get to start really working out the tune. Haven't seen anything over 30* ambient - but we haven't been able to really run it for very long with high boost yet.
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      10-24-2019, 12:08 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
Yeah we definitely will be keeping an eye on the whole system for leaks. Piecing it together like we did definitely needs to be watched.

I'll start posting logs when we get to start really working out the tune. Haven't seen anything over 30* ambient - but we haven't been able to really run it for very long with high boost yet.
No no, I meant the air to water intercooler itself not the heat exchanger loop. There have been reports on the s55 that the intercooler unit leaks into the cylinder head, only way to be sure was checking fluid levels.


Yeah that's pretty good 30*.
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      03-05-2020, 07:53 AM   #121
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I have done some logging in a straight line 3rd to 5th pulls and I'm seeing significant IAT increases last night over short intervals that got me worried.

Worth noting I'm running a custom tune with:
- Dinan CAI
- Dinan IC
- Dinan exhaust
- Dinan Turbo
- ER catless Downpipe
- AA Charge Pipe
- XDI-35

On 98RON fuel.
Ambient temp was ~74.5F

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e60203fd10b434f939778eb
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      03-05-2020, 09:30 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O8E92M3 View Post
I have done some logging in a straight line 3rd to 5th pulls and I'm seeing significant IAT increases last night over short intervals that got me worried.

Worth noting I'm running a custom tune with:
- Dinan CAI
- Dinan IC
- Dinan exhaust
- Dinan Turbo
- ER catless Downpipe
- AA Charge Pipe
- XDI-35

On 98RON fuel.
Ambient temp was ~74.5F

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e60203fd10b434f939778eb
Yeah, the bottleneck for IAT cooling in your setup is the Dinan IC—same as I experienced.

That said, when ambient gets even warmer, no IC is going to keep IATs below 110F, which is ideal.

That’s why I switched to an Emix tune bc it holds power much better with IATs going all the way up to 155F in my testing.
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      03-05-2020, 09:35 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by O8E92M3 View Post
I have done some logging in a straight line 3rd to 5th pulls and I'm seeing significant IAT increases last night over short intervals that got me worried.

Worth noting I'm running a custom tune with:
- Dinan CAI
- Dinan IC
- Dinan exhaust
- Dinan Turbo
- ER catless Downpipe
- AA Charge Pipe
- XDI-35

On 98RON fuel.
Ambient temp was ~74.5F

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e60203fd10b434f939778eb
Yeah, the bottleneck for IAT cooling in your setup is the Dinan IC—same as I experienced.

That said, when ambient gets even warmer, no IC is going to keep IATs below 110F, which is ideal.

That's why I switched to an Emix tune bc it holds power much better with IATs going all the way up to 155F in my testing.
I don't have access to any better fuel here, unless I mix a few liters of VP racing fuel with my 98RON - if that is recommended?

Can I achieve better IATs with other IC setups? Primarily for such short pulls - not going to track the car very often.
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      03-05-2020, 09:45 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O8E92M3 View Post
I don't have access to any better fuel here, unless I mix a few liters of VP racing fuel with my 98RON - if that is recommended?

Can I achieve better IATs with other IC setups? Primarily for such short pulls - not going to track the car very often.
Yeah. It seems most guys go with either the Wagner Evo 2 Comp (what I went with), or the CSF. Both have pros & cons, so it has to be your call which is better for your situation.

As for the race gas, it won’t lower IATs, but it will reduce the amount of timing and power that is pulled as IATs go up.

I’ll also add that you’re pushing a decent amount of boost thru your Dinan turbo and custom tune. I also have the Dinan turbo and when you start pushing the boost, IATs go up quick. It’ll take a larger turbo and tune to get the IATs down while getting similar or larger power levels.

Lastly, have you compared your custom tune to the OTS Stg 2 BM3 maps? We have similar hardware, but I hit almost 44lb/min on the MAF, while you’re in the high 30’s. I would be curious what the OTS maps showed vs your custom map.

Last edited by ZM2; 03-05-2020 at 09:54 AM..
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      03-05-2020, 10:00 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by O8E92M3 View Post
I don't have access to any better fuel here, unless I mix a few liters of VP racing fuel with my 98RON - if that is recommended?

Can I achieve better IATs with other IC setups? Primarily for such short pulls - not going to track the car very often.
Yeah. It seems most guys go with either the Wagner Evo 2 Comp (what I went with), or the CSF. Both have pros & cons, so it has to be your call which is better for your situation.

As for the race gas, it won't lower IATs, but it will reduce the amount of timing and power that is pulled as IATs go up.

I'll also add that you're pushing a decent amount of boost thru your Dinan turbo and custom tune. I also have the Dinan turbo and when you start pushing the boost, IATs go up quick.

It'll take a larger turbo and tune to get the IATs down while getting similar or larger power levels.

Lastly, have you compared your custom tune to the OTS Stg 2 BM3 maps? We have similar hardware, but I hit almost 44lb/min on the MAF, while you're in the high 30's. I would be curious what the OTS maps showed vs your custom map.
I have used the OTS St2 for quite some time but unfortunately I don't have any logs from it.

Speaking of MAF, I have had the CAI with the same filter for nearly 3 years. Can a dirty/old air filter lower MAF by that much? Just a thought.
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      03-05-2020, 10:35 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O8E92M3 View Post
I have used the OTS St2 for quite some time but unfortunately I don't have any logs from it.

Speaking of MAF, I have had the CAI with the same filter for nearly 3 years. Can a dirty/old air filter lower MAF by that much? Just a thought.
I wouldn’t think so. I would clean it and then do same day logs on your custom and OTS tunes and compare IATs, MAF, boost, timing, etc.
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      03-06-2020, 08:17 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by O8E92M3 View Post
I have used the OTS St2 for quite some time but unfortunately I don't have any logs from it.

Speaking of MAF, I have had the CAI with the same filter for nearly 3 years. Can a dirty/old air filter lower MAF by that much? Just a thought.
I wouldn't think so. I would clean it and then do same day logs on your custom and OTS tunes and compare IATs, MAF, boost, timing, etc.
So I got excited and filled a 150mL can of a LiquiMoly Octane Plus (booster) with a full tank of 98RON fuel - to help

Logged a 3rd to 5th WOT pull and saw 3 "knock detected" instances at WOT.

How bad/harmful is this? Any feedback?
Why would this happen? I'm confused because what I understand is that boosting your Octane should actually prevent knocking.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e62b9f3d10b43598fdf27da
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      03-07-2020, 11:41 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by O8E92M3 View Post
So I got excited and filled a 150mL can of a LiquiMoly Octane Plus (booster) with a full tank of 98RON fuel - to help

Logged a 3rd to 5th WOT pull and saw 3 "knock detected" instances at WOT.

How bad/harmful is this? Any feedback?
Why would this happen? I'm confused because what I understand is that boosting your Octane should actually prevent knocking.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5e62b9f3d10b43598fdf27da
I’m not the most experienced person when talking about certain engine parameters and tuning, but I’d say it’s an issue with the tune.

I’ve never seen major knocks on the BM3 Stg 2 OTS or custom Stg 2H maps.
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      03-07-2020, 02:47 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I’m not the most experienced person when talking about certain engine parameters and tuning, but I’d say it’s an issue with the tune.

I’ve never seen major knocks on the BM3 Stg 2 OTS or custom Stg 2H maps.
He registered 3 half knock events going from 45mph to 125mph. I'm not sure what a half knock event is, but I know that detonation isn't the only cause for knock events. Things that can be mistaken for detonation can cause knock events. And I also know a couple knock events in a log don't mean something dangerous is going on.

At my quick glance and using my armature and unqualified knowledge as a guide, I don't think there is anything wrong with the knock events in his log. Though I think he should consult his tuner for reassurance.
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      03-07-2020, 02:59 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
He registered 3 half knock events going from 45mph to 125mph. I'm not sure what a half knock event is, but I know that detonation isn't the only cause for knock events. Things that can be mistaken for detonation can cause knock events. And I also know a couple knock events in a log don't mean something dangerous is going on.

At my quick glance and using my armature and unqualified knowledge as a guide, I don't think there is anything wrong with the knock events in his log. Though I think he should consult his tuner for reassurance.
I’ve had the mini <0.5 knock values in my logs in the past, but his logs show on my side 1.0 for some of the knocks. No idea if 1.0 is a big deal or not, I’ve never seen it hit that in my logs.

I’m sure the computer is smart enough to protect the engine, but it’ll also pull timing & power if it sees a knock, which isn’t what we all want either. The timing on cylinder 4 drops as the knock is detected in a couple instances.

Is the timing pull bc of the knock detected and the computer intervening, or bc the tune is too aggressive and then there’s a knock, or just a plug that isn’t working as good as the others, I have no idea.

Last edited by ZM2; 03-07-2020 at 03:11 PM..
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      03-16-2020, 09:13 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
He registered 3 half knock events going from 45mph to 125mph. I'm not sure what a half knock event is, but I know that detonation isn't the only cause for knock events. Things that can be mistaken for detonation can cause knock events. And I also know a couple knock events in a log don't mean something dangerous is going on.

At my quick glance and using my armature and unqualified knowledge as a guide, I don't think there is anything wrong with the knock events in his log. Though I think he should consult his tuner for reassurance.
I've had the mini <0.5 knock values in my logs in the past, but his logs show on my side 1.0 for some of the knocks. No idea if 1.0 is a big deal or not, I've never seen it hit that in my logs.

I'm sure the computer is smart enough to protect the engine, but it'll also pull timing & power if it sees a knock, which isn't what we all want either. The timing on cylinder 4 drops as the knock is detected in a couple instances.

Is the timing pull bc of the knock detected and the computer intervening, or bc the tune is too aggressive and then there's a knock, or just a plug that isn't working as good as the others, I have no idea.
Changed my spark plugs to a step colder plugs with 0.022" gap (as recommended by PTF) to rule out an issue with the plugs.

Still seeing the same knocks. Clueless!
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      03-16-2020, 09:34 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O8E92M3 View Post
Changed my spark plugs to a step colder plugs with 0.022" gap (as recommended by PTF) to rule out an issue with the plugs.

Still seeing the same knocks. Clueless!
Have you tried logging on the OTS map to rule the custom tune out?
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