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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > THE ULTIMATE Intercooler Thread - What to Look For Before Buying an FMIC

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      11-09-2018, 08:43 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Ah, okay. I didn't know those others are also 6".
Most cars do not require any cutting
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      11-11-2018, 02:41 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
The VRSF Race produces lower intake temps than both the CSF and the Wagner.
Hi Taigo.. I'll put $5000 USD on the line that my cooler produces comparable hp to yours but will have lower IAT's..

tell me where to send the intercooler for unbiased testing.

we have documented logs showing IAT's barely touching 80 degrees on a 4th gear pull - lower than what your graph shows

talk can be cheap, but we're willing to back it up.
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      11-11-2018, 07:27 PM   #91
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Is there a Wagner rep here?😀
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      11-11-2018, 09:40 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
In the past few hours we've been able to gather up 6-7 different testers all ranging from stock to upgraded turbos. Some cars have Wagners already which should make this a lot easier

Once CSF confirms the dollar amount and if they're ok with proceeds going to charity we can move forward.

Coincidentally we put together a giveaway for the same Race intercooler about a week ago on the 335i forums and we were lucky enough to land a couple testers who have both the CSF and the Wagner already.

We'd prefer to have one car do all the testing to eliminate as many variables as possible but testing 4-5 intercoolers in one day just isn't possible for one, unbiased, non-shop affiliated individual.

I also wanted to make it clear that CSF has built a reputation for their quality and performance over the years and this intercooler is no different. We've recommended their products as an alternative to ours in the past when we've had back orders and we'll continue to do so.

The point is to offer up a fair comparison so the community has access to the facts they need to make an educated purchasing decision.
Hi Tiago,

I'm currently in Germany visiting some of our distributors. I will be back at my office in the USA end of this upcoming week. Can you please PM your contact details, and I'll call you when I get back the following week, and we can figure out all of the details for this testing. (In no way am I stalling, but I am on the road, and it's better suited to handle this after I get back to my office).

Also, I'm comfortable at a $5,000 wager. I think this is plenty, and I really like your suggestion to put the funds to charity.

Let me discuss with my team, and figure out what parameters for unbiased testing would be the best, and we can discuss this on a phone call.

if you can PM your contact details, I'll send you mind back as well (phone, email, etc.).

also - none of my products are made in Malaysia so don't know who you spoke to regarding this.

As a starting point for reference:
1) What is the weight of your intercooler? CSF's is +/- 30 pounds
2) What is the height of the front face of the VRSF intercooler? CSF is 9.41 inches tall
3) How many rows of cooling bar/plate stack height do you have on your core? CSF has 17 rows
4) What is the thickness of the bottom core? CSF is 5.5 inches thick (not 6.5 inches thick)
5) You can confirm there is no modifications to install your intercooler? full plug and play like the CSF.


- just want to have all of the facts as many of our customers are track guys and a core surface the impedes airflow to other coolers in the car is extremely important as we take this into account when designing a cooling system, especially for the M2 as we have a 4 piece cooling kit which is proven to keep the car out of limp mode. Some sort of track testing, and heat soak testing should be part of this testing as well. So something we need to talk about and agree upon. Our main target market is not the highway pull customer.


Here are 4 runs of 3-4-5 gear pulls with the CSF intercooler (this testing was not done by CSF)
- JB4 Map1 for around 18 psi of boost
- 4x shorter pulls from 80 kph (50 mph to 130 mph), immediately brake and go at it again. This to not give the FMIC cooldown time.



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      11-11-2018, 10:34 PM   #93
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BBS///ER///BMS///AirLift///VRSF///ARKYM///DD///CYBA///STOPTECH///BMW Performance ///
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      11-11-2018, 11:24 PM   #94
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There needs to be a video documenting this FMIC Cage Match
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      11-11-2018, 11:52 PM   #95
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This thread just got super interesting!
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      11-11-2018, 11:59 PM   #96
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I can confirm my VRSF Race is 100% plug and play. Only modification needed was to trim surrounding plastic shrouds to clear the height.
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      11-12-2018, 12:55 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashimarho View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Sweden View Post
There needs to be a video documenting this FMIC Cage Match
Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
This thread just got super interesting!
You're welcome
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      11-12-2018, 12:57 AM   #98
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      11-12-2018, 12:17 PM   #99
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I 100% agree that this shouldn't just be about a single pull on a dyno showing before/during/after IATs, and that the heat soak element is very important to include. That said, I'm loving the friendly battle between the two manufacturers and I hope it stays as professional and objective as possible. Please be sure to document and share everything so that an accurate picture can be painted by those not present physically during the comparison (ex. details regarding each respective FMIC like what CSF already provided is a good start).

Ideally, I'd also like to see the pressure drop between the participating manufacturers and also the flow through the fins to see how the FMIC affects the components behind it as well but I think that might be asking too much.
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      11-12-2018, 04:45 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuthlessE92 View Post
I can confirm my VRSF Race is 100% plug and play. Only modification needed was to trim surrounding plastic shrouds to clear the height.
That does not sound like 100% plug and play.
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      11-13-2018, 07:31 AM   #101
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I currently have Fabspeed downpipe. Future mods will be AFE dry filter, Fi or Remus Exahust and either get BM3 or Hex Stage 1/2 tune.

Which intercooler and chargepipe would be best for Vegas street driving if I decide for stage 2?
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      11-13-2018, 08:22 AM   #102
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Chargepipe ftp 👏
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      11-13-2018, 10:03 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D CHOI View Post
I currently have Fabspeed downpipe. Future mods will be AFE dry filter, Fi or Remus Exahust and either get BM3 or Hex Stage 1/2 tune.

Which intercooler and chargepipe would be best for Vegas street driving if I decide for stage 2?
HI,
Wagner EVO II, CSF or VRSF Race.
VRSF or Active Autowerke charge pipe

We also offer the REMUS exhaust and BM3, you can come and pick it up from the shop on Valley View
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      11-13-2018, 06:36 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by D CHOI View Post
I currently have Fabspeed downpipe. Future mods will be AFE dry filter, Fi or Remus Exahust and either get BM3 or Hex Stage 1/2 tune.

Which intercooler and chargepipe would be best for Vegas street driving if I decide for stage 2?
HI,
Wagner EVO II, CSF or VRSF Race.
VRSF or Active Autowerke charge pipe

We also offer the REMUS exhaust and BM3, you can come and pick it up from the shop on Valley View
If I do stage1 only would u still recommend the bigger intercooler? I don't want any turbo lag and I was thinking the VSRF 5".
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      11-13-2018, 08:30 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D CHOI View Post
If I do stage1 only would u still recommend the bigger intercooler? I don't want any turbo lag and I was thinking the VSRF 5".
if you are running a stage 1, the 5" is the better option.
VRSF 5" is an excellent product
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      11-14-2018, 02:32 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
Hi Tiago,

I'm currently in Germany visiting some of our distributors. I will be back at my office in the USA end of this upcoming week. Can you please PM your contact details, and I'll call you when I get back the following week, and we can figure out all of the details for this testing. (In no way am I stalling, but I am on the road, and it's better suited to handle this after I get back to my office).

Also, I'm comfortable at a $5,000 wager. I think this is plenty, and I really like your suggestion to put the funds to charity.

Let me discuss with my team, and figure out what parameters for unbiased testing would be the best, and we can discuss this on a phone call.

if you can PM your contact details, I'll send you mind back as well (phone, email, etc.).

also - none of my products are made in Malaysia so don't know who you spoke to regarding this.

As a starting point for reference:
1) What is the weight of your intercooler? CSF's is +/- 30 pounds
2) What is the height of the front face of the VRSF intercooler? CSF is 9.41 inches tall
3) How many rows of cooling bar/plate stack height do you have on your core? CSF has 17 rows
4) What is the thickness of the bottom core? CSF is 5.5 inches thick (not 6.5 inches thick)
5) You can confirm there is no modifications to install your intercooler? full plug and play like the CSF.


- just want to have all of the facts as many of our customers are track guys and a core surface the impedes airflow to other coolers in the car is extremely important as we take this into account when designing a cooling system, especially for the M2 as we have a 4 piece cooling kit which is proven to keep the car out of limp mode. Some sort of track testing, and heat soak testing should be part of this testing as well. So something we need to talk about and agree upon. Our main target market is not the highway pull customer.


Here are 4 runs of 3-4-5 gear pulls with the CSF intercooler (this testing was not done by CSF)
- JB4 Map1 for around 18 psi of boost
- 4x shorter pulls from 80 kph (50 mph to 130 mph), immediately brake and go at it again. This to not give the FMIC cooldown time.



Ravi Dolwani
Owner
Tiago@VRSF still waiting for someone to contact us. I left you guys a DM on Instagram, PM here on Bimmerpost.. You were all ready to go a couple of days ago promoting it on instagram and guranateeing a win? why did you go silent?

We can't get the challenge going if we can't get rules laid out. I'll be back in the USA tomorrow, and ready to rock and roll on this testing.

Waiting for reply.
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      11-14-2018, 12:10 PM   #107
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I really hope these tests include enough runs for statistical significance and will replicate actual conditions end-users will experience on the street and track. If a test isn't relatable to actual use cases, then it's pretty meaningless (other than for marketing purposes, which isn't to the end-users' benefit).

Importantly for the track will be how do the reduced IATs translate to speed, which is the ultimate metric being chased.

Sourcing would ideally be from a blind retail channel.
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      11-14-2018, 12:45 PM   #108
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So, are you guys done looking for testers? And why is only VRSF actively looking for participants here and on social media but not CSF (IG stories don't count)?

I hope multiple cars are going to be dyno'd with different ICs on the same dyno on the same day. For example, 1 car can start with VRSF on the dyno then hop off to swap to CSF IC while another car starts on the dyno with CSF -- rinse and repeat. That way, you minimize down time between dyno sessions and temperature variance, while providing near identical conditions to both manufacturers.
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      11-14-2018, 11:45 PM   #109
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I would like to see some track data too, imo (with all due respect to both vendors) a super thick core that doesn't flow well is meaningless to me as it'll be restricting for the radiator behind it and result in limp modes, which m2 track guys see all too often imo.

Track data also means I want to see oil temps, water temps not just iat alone.

Good luck to both vendors, I'm curious to see some results.
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      11-15-2018, 02:19 AM   #110
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use two stock m2 with just the coolers changed and do a couple canyon rips and see which cooler provides the best all round result. (probably the more stock the car is the more accurate the results will be)

It would also be interesting to put the car on the scale and see which one shifts the weight more towards the front, quite relevant for track guys.
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