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      10-18-2020, 09:27 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by M1500Z View Post
@OG Shark do you have a thread discussing what's done to your car and your experiences? I am not totally opposed to altering only the cooling system. As I said, I have no desire to make more power — there are other ways to find speed.
There is one where I have gotten into it a bit - but can give you a brief summary. Upgraded all the coolers - water & oil better but still have to back off at times. IATs still getting way too high too quickly. We integrated an air to water IC from an S55 and that helped tremendously with IATs. Also got the FMIC out of the way which aided the other coolers a bit as well. Haven't done much with the M2 though lately, been focusing on my E92 M3. We will be getting back into it here soon though

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      10-27-2020, 07:00 AM   #24
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I cant really speak to longevity or cooling.... but comparing driving characteristics at Hockenheimring, Nurburgring GP, and Nurburgring Nordschleife, the handling feel of the 2018 M2, M2C, and M2CS (Hockenhiemring only) feels very similar in stock form and I submit that after a lap or two on track its hard to notice any stock to stock handling difference. Looking at the corner speed telemetry, they are so similar, I couldn't tell a difference between cars lap to lap.

The obvious major difference is the engine, and I would rate the feel in power jump from OGM2 to M2C, and M2C to M2CS as feeling like similar evolutions. It is certainly noticeable, but if chasing lap times I think there is better return by improving handling.

To compare extremes, here is a speed trace down the long Parabolika straight at Hockenheimring M2 vs M2CS (M2C as expected falls in the middle). Acceleration is similar until about the 3-4 gear change, then the M2CS walks away and the DCT changes are very (un)noticeable. Surprisingly (to me), I have found similar acceleration speed traces to about 100mph between M2/M2C/M2CS.

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These traces were on very hot days (about 95deg ambient), and IAT telemetry from my OGM2 was 167F at the end of the straight. I felt the M2CS was pulling timing, too. On a cooler day I constantly got about 4-5mph faster at the end of the straight in my OGM2 with IAT closer to 130. Both were completely stock engines.
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      10-27-2020, 10:06 AM   #25
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This is a great post with some very objective feedback. Refreshing to see, after seeing the endless exhaust noise and "not a M engine" fights.

I have an OG LCI that I've done 4 track days in over the last 2.5 years, primarily as it's not been my track car so far. I have right seated in a couple of M2s and M2Cs on track though. The cars felt very similar, though the C felt slightly heavier when transitioning from brake, to steering and to throttle. I found myself suggesting more smooth transitions to manage inertia. I am curious about this aspect of the difference from people who've driven both on track? The extra 125-150lbs (a lot IMHO) does not seem to impact the ability of the car to turn quick laps, so I am curious about the feel and subjective aspects.

As the M2 becomes more of a track car for me, my focus will be on making the car lighter and handle better. So much more bang for the buck when it comes to lap times than adding power - though power is sweet
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      10-27-2020, 10:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pal View Post
This is a great post with some very objective feedback. Refreshing to see, after seeing the endless exhaust noise and "not a M engine" fights.

I have an OG LCI that I've done 4 track days in over the last 2.5 years, primarily as it's not been my track car so far. I have right seated in a couple of M2s and M2Cs on track though. The cars felt very similar, though the C felt slightly heavier when transitioning from brake, to steering and to throttle. I found myself suggesting more smooth transitions to manage inertia. I am curious about this aspect of the difference from people who've driven both on track? The extra 125-150lbs (a lot IMHO) does not seem to impact the ability of the car to turn quick laps, so I am curious about the feel and subjective aspects.

As the M2 becomes more of a track car for me, my focus will be on making the car lighter and handle better. So much more bang for the buck when it comes to lap times than adding power - though power is sweet
Good plan, and I agree. Great review KHAP13 !

I think the OG M2 with stock tune, good IC upgrade (and perhaps catted DP) is a great track tool. I've been impressed with mine, even though bone stock it does cut power during warm track days. I have no experience with the M2C, so I can't contribute.
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      10-27-2020, 01:39 PM   #27
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I have not experienced issues running 20+ minute sessions, though when I think about it the 4 days I did were on under 80°F ambient temp days. I do know a couple other buddies that have been tracking their OGs and they haven't observed a noticeable impact from heat to write home about.

A larger Intercooler and a hi-flow downpipe with stock tune is what I was thinking as well. Keep it simple. Reliability is key when it comes to track days.
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      10-27-2020, 01:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pal View Post
I have not experienced issues running 20+ minute sessions, though when I think about it the 4 days I did were on under 80°F ambient temp days. I do know a couple other buddies that have been tracking their OGs and they haven't observed a noticeable impact from heat to write home about.

A larger Intercooler and a hi-flow downpipe with stock tune is what I was thinking as well. Keep it simple. Reliability is key when it comes to track days.
Yeah, it’s hard to notice. I’ve been running Nordschleife a few times this summer and once in the fall. Summer temps were 80F +

In 3 summer sessions I gained 4s.

In the last session it was 60F. I gained another 14s. Car felt a lot stronger.

Planning next year sessions for late March/April.
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      10-27-2020, 04:34 PM   #29
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One metric I've used to assess whether the car is experiencing heat soak is top speed at the end of long straights on a track at the start and end of a session. If that hasn't changed much, I assume the car is performing as it should.

The Nordschleife is a unique animal though and you're busy for 8+ minutes. Have you seen this at regular 2.5-3 mile tracks?
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      10-27-2020, 10:32 PM   #30
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@[KHAP13], excellent post—thank you. You're reinforcing what's really begun to be the crux of the argument in favor of the competition for me. Considering I most likely will continue to live in central TX, the cooling package (and warranty bonus) sound advantageous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pal View Post
I have an OG LCI that I've done 4 track days in over the last 2.5 years, primarily as it's not been my track car so far. I have right seated in a couple of M2s and M2Cs on track though. The cars felt very similar, though the C felt slightly heavier when transitioning from brake, to steering and to throttle. I found myself suggesting more smooth transitions to manage inertia. I am curious about this aspect of the difference from people who've driven both on track? The extra 125-150lbs (a lot IMHO) does not seem to impact the ability of the car to turn quick laps, so I am curious about the feel and subjective aspects.

As the M2 becomes more of a track car for me, my focus will be on making the car lighter and handle better. So much more bang for the buck when it comes to lap times than adding power - though power is sweet
The weight issue has really weighed on me and I think if I lived in a cooler climate, I may not be sweating this cooling concern as much. To me, the N55's two biggest faults are the cooling package compared to the S55 and the loss of steam up top that leads to short-shifting it a bit.

What's interesting is a lot of the weight in the competition (I believe it's ~105-110lbs) becomes less of an issue with typical track-day changes—if both cars swapped to track wheels, racing buckets, a cat-back exhaust, and say AP racing front brakes (expensive but not uncommon) I think that weight delta drops a decent bit. That said, the weight issue (and bias) will always favor the original car.
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      11-01-2020, 12:00 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1500Z
What's interesting is a lot of the weight in the competition (I believe it's ~105-110lbs) becomes less of an issue with typical track-day changes—if both cars swapped to track wheels, racing buckets, a cat-back exhaust, and say AP racing front brakes (expensive but not uncommon) I think that weight delta drops a decent bit. That said, the weight issue (and bias) will always favor the original car.
That's an intersting take. Brakes and exhaust on the comp will certainly help with the delta, but then these will help the OG a bit too. Frankly, as awesome as the S55 motor is, to me picking a C over an OG today is still not an easy choice. I suspect I would still pick an OG and do some cooling upgrades when the time comes. Inertia on a track with turns is real, killing consumables with a fast and heavy car is real as well.

I'd love to get the "track" weight on my manual, no-sunroof OG LCI down to about 3250 lbs (lose about 200). I have the Akra exhaust and 513M wheels for track. I am thinking seats and rear seat delete are the biggest bang for the buck, but they don't lose that much. And KW Clubsports will likely add some weight back. With the Comp, you're starting at 3600 ...
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      11-01-2020, 01:12 PM   #32
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Sorry for a late reply. I do not have data on a shorter course. My “feeling” is a second per minute perhaps. And in the end it’s easy to ask yourself is the 2s was you, or the car.

But weight isn’t everything. To be honest when I get back stateside I will likely switch to a Camaro or a Mustang. Both are heavier, at 3750 to 3850lbs, but both much faster than M2 or M2C during Lightning Lap. Many videos on it.

They consume tires and brakes faster, sure, but they are also able to get through the lap much quicker, and don’t loose as much steam being NA. So I think it comes down to preference and what exactly you’re looking for.
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      11-01-2020, 06:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
But weight isn’t everything. To be honest when I get back stateside I will likely switch to a Camaro or a Mustang. Both are heavier, at 3750 to 3850lbs, but both much faster than M2 or M2C during Lightning Lap. Many videos on it.
No doubt both the Mustang and Camaro are great options, but how much of this LL time advantage is tires? Both wear quite a bit more tire (taller and wider), even when looking at it proportionate to weight, and they also ship with more aggressive tires in those bigger sizes.

I don’t have deltas from PSS to something like the Eagle F1 supercar or PSC2 that these cars ship with, but a tire change to something more equivalent could be enough to close most, if not all, of the ~5 second LL time gap on a longer track like VIR.

In terms of bang for the buck, starting at around $45k with their respective track packages and nothing else, the Camaro and Mustang are certainly hard to beat though, no question. Much closer to track ready out of the box than any M2 variant so far and very capable.

Anyway, back to M2 vs M2 comp, weight was one factor in choosing the OG for me, as were cost and timing. Another was the seats which, ironically, I changed out as the leather was too slick for track use. Probably would’ve done the same in either case though.

If shopping now, I prefer new cars, so I’d happily choose a Comp, but in June 2018, I had a new vs new choice. Would’ve just had to wait a couple months longer for a Comp.
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      11-02-2020, 04:03 PM   #34
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No doubt both the Mustang and Camaro are great options, but how much of this LL time advantage is tires? Both wear quite a bit more tire (taller and wider), even when looking at it proportionate to weight, and they also ship with more aggressive tires in those bigger sizes.

I don’t have deltas from PSS to something like the Eagle F1 supercar or PSC2 that these cars ship with, but a tire change to something more equivalent could be enough to close most, if not all, of the ~5 second LL time gap on a longer track like VIR.

In terms of bang for the buck, starting at around $45k with their respective track packages and nothing else, the Camaro and Mustang are certainly hard to beat though, no question. Much closer to track ready out of the box than any M2 variant so far and very capable.

Anyway, back to M2 vs M2 comp, weight was one factor in choosing the OG for me, as were cost and timing. Another was the seats which, ironically, I changed out as the leather was too slick for track use. Probably would’ve done the same in either case though.

If shopping now, I prefer new cars, so I’d happily choose a Comp, but in June 2018, I had a new vs new choice. Would’ve just had to wait a couple months longer for a Comp.
Yeah, good points. I am waiting for someone to do a comparison of Cup2 vs Supercar 3. And Cup2R vs Supercar 3R.

I'm thinking the Cup2s come out on top, as Motor Trend made the comment "These aren't Cup2s" in one of their videos on the ZL1 (on Supercar 3) if I recall, but it's all speculation till there is an objective comparison.
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      11-03-2020, 11:05 AM   #35
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Since we're commonly talking about weights around here there's few actual weights posted, I'll throw in a real number for reference - last year I weighed in on the scales at NHMS. My car is a USA 2020 M2 Competition, 6MT, Exec package and no sunroof. COMPLETELY stock otherwise - it was the car's first trip out and just after my break-in service. The car weighed 3505lbs. without me in it. This was with pretty low fuel (dear lord this thing drinks gas when you push it!) but you can extrapolate from there.
I can sum up this conversation about which is better:

M2 OG Driver - The M2 is best. because yadda yadda yadda....totally not because I happen to own one.

M2 Comp Driver - The M2c is best because yadda yadda yadda...totally not because I happen to own one.

I think it'd be silly to upgrade from an OG to a comp unless there were mechanical issues or your lease is up or some other reason that you'd need a new ride. At the same time, today, there's no reason to buy an OG instead of a Comp other than the lower price. This statement is for track use - if you care about the exhaust sound or whatnot, that's a street thing and out of scope here.
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      11-03-2020, 11:52 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T1313 View Post
Since we're commonly talking about weights around here there's few actual weights posted, I'll throw in a real number for reference - last year I weighed in on the scales at NHMS. My car is a USA 2020 M2 Competition, 6MT, Exec package and no sunroof. COMPLETELY stock otherwise - it was the car's first trip out and just after my break-in service. The car weighed 3505lbs. without me in it. This was with pretty low fuel (dear lord this thing drinks gas when you push it!) but you can extrapolate from there.
I can sum up this conversation about which is better:

M2 OG Driver - The M2 is best. because yadda yadda yadda....totally not because I happen to own one.

M2 Comp Driver - The M2c is best because yadda yadda yadda...totally not because I happen to own one.

I think it'd be silly to upgrade from an OG to a comp unless there were mechanical issues or your lease is up or some other reason that you'd need a new ride. At the same time, today, there's no reason to buy an OG instead of a Comp other than the lower price. This statement is for track use - if you care about the exhaust sound or whatnot, that's a street thing and out of scope here.
-T
Funny cause that is actually kind of the opposite of the conversation that is happening here... Based on the OP's situation you have OG owners saying the comp might actually be the better choice here, comp owners providing some feedback on relevant info to the discussion (i.e. heat), weight discussions, etc. No one here has gone to the low hanging fruit of how wretched the S55 sounds yet - maybe we are finally starting to mature as a group?
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      11-03-2020, 12:20 PM   #37
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Haha - fair enough, you're right on this particular thread but it usually goes the other way. All three versions of the platform are great - I'm certainly not at a point in my racing career that I'm outdriving one or the other. I'd consider changing platform altogether but not changing the F87 flavor I have.
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      11-03-2020, 02:50 PM   #38
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Quote:
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Haha - fair enough, you're right on this particular thread but it usually goes the other way. All three versions of the platform are great - I'm certainly not at a point in my racing career that I'm outdriving one or the other. I'd consider changing platform altogether but not changing the F87 flavor I have.
-T
Well there is only so much us OG guys can take being called slower and all before we have to go to our ace in the hole & remind you comp guys how bad your cars sound

Like you said all three variants are great cars. Here in Texas though - if I were to track one while keeping it stock - I would give the nod to the comp. It's just a major uphill battle against the heat here with the N55 & having power constantly being pulled gets pretty old. Even an OG with upgraded cooling is not immune to it. And if I was going to take a look at the comp I would probably have to take a pretty hard look at the CS while I was at it...
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      11-03-2020, 04:12 PM   #39
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Wait, you guys see an argument between M2 and M2C? I thought the premise here was BMW vs Miata?
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      11-03-2020, 04:50 PM   #40
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Wait, you guys see an argument between M2 and M2C? I thought the premise here was BMW vs Miata?
Knew you were secretly a miata guy and the whole 5.0 & heavy american iron thing was just a cover
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      11-03-2020, 06:36 PM   #41
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This community is awesome.
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      11-03-2020, 09:44 PM   #42
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Agreed and great thread. Very informative to new M2 owners like myself (just picked up an LCI M2 a few weeks ago).

Thanks all!
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      11-04-2020, 06:40 AM   #43
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Regarding the OG M2 on track and power reduction issues, lack of N55 cooling, etc, paradoxical did probably the most extensive dive into the issue with his track build a number of years ago. Here's a link to a specific post on the subject within his build thread: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8#post21284898
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      11-04-2020, 09:19 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Regarding the OG M2 on track and power reduction issues, lack of N55 cooling, etc, paradoxical did probably the most extensive dive into the issue with his track build a number of years ago. Here's a link to a specific post on the subject within his build thread: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8#post21284898
Interesting read - glad to see where are still pretty much in the same place with the cooling 3+ years later

Do you know if any more details were ever given after all the cooling upgrades? The thread kind of dies off without much feedback after all the coolers went on. Have a feeling the heat still caught up with the car but would be cool to hear for sure how it responded.
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