[RC84]

What is everyones sentiment regarding the s55 vs b58 engine from a technical perspective?

From my understanding, the b58 has several improvements over the s55, which should result in better long term reliability. S55 has the 3 piece crank hub - SCH issue...overblown perhaps, but still something to factor.

Bottom line, they both appear to be great engines, but is the b58 better? Both use a closed deck bottom with forged internals. The b58 also has "improved" cooling, so I'm wondering how that compares to to the "improved" cooling on the s55.

Goal of this thread is to do a deep dive into the technical pros and cons of both platforms.

I currently have an m240 in production, but considering picking up an f87 or waiting for the g87 M2.

[ASAP]

I've driven all 3 somewhat extensively... can't really speak to the technical aspect as you ask but can only speak to driving experience-

1) The B58 is without a doubt the torquiest and packed the largest punch down low... can also be tuned heavily.... it felt like the best daily driver motor.

2) The S55 is highest revver but to truly have fun with it... you really need to play in the ranges above 3K... as below that it doesn't have much grunt. It felt like a motor better suited for smaller lighter cars... i.e. the M2C.

3) The S58 is an all out monster that has an insane top end but also seems to lack low end grunt... however this is the engine you want for all out power and modding.

I think to summarize, I would have the B58 in any of my daily driven cars... its probably the best Non M motor ever built and perhaps the best straight six in any car that isn't an M car. I would choose the S55 for a truer sports car experience and the S58 for straight up brute force.

[Atam]

Always wondered about this too! Glad to have someone who has driven extensively on these engines share their perspective!

I've only driven on the s55 and thought it was indeed lacking low end power and always wondered if the b58 is the best of both worlds. Glad that the s55 definitely shines in other aspects even compared to the s58.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Atam

Always wondered about this too! Glad to have someone who has driven extensively on these engines share their perspective!

I've only driven on the s55 and thought it was indeed lacking low end power and always wondered if the b58 is the best of both worlds. Glad that the s55 definitely shines in other aspects even compared to the s58.

I have driven B58 stock/chipped & S55 stock/chipped.

The S55 is very capped originally, the B58 hardly wins at low rpms with stage1, instead the S55 changes radically at low rpms with a simple stage1.

[Atam]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

I have driven B58 stock/chipped & S55 stock/chipped.

The S55 is very capped originally, the B58 hardly wins at low rpms with stage1, instead the S55 changes radically at low rpms with a simple stage1.

Is this straight off the line low end torque ?

Ive got carbahn stage 1 and feel a slight difference but nothing drastic. I could also be too light on the throttle.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Atam

Is this straight off the line low end torque ?

Ive got carbahn stage 1 and feel a slight difference but nothing drastic. I could also be too light on the throttle.

Yes, I am only talking about the low end torque, in the b58 I did not notice any improvement at low rpms, the S55 looks like a 3 liter turbodiesel engine, in fact on s55 I mounted bigger turbos to reduce torque at low rpm

[RugbyBro]

B58 is pretty boring/sterile when paired with ZF8 tbh and the only new manual B58 you can buy is a Supra. S58 is a typical big turbo motor, everything up top but again ZF8 is a let down with it so for me it would need to be a manual. S55 is the gnarliest of the group, much “angrier” character in comparison to the other two and can be had with a DCT, which suits it very well.

If you really want a B58, I would look at the Supra. There isn’t a better performance value this side of $100k.

[MooMooM2]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

B58 is pretty boring/sterile when paired with ZF8 tbh and the only new manual B58 you can buy is a Supra. S58 is a typical big turbo motor, everything up top but again ZF8 is a let down with it so for me it would need to be a manual. S55 is the gnarliest of the group, much “angrier” character in comparison to the other two and can be had with a DCT, which suits it very well.

If you really want a B58, I would look at the Supra. There isn’t a better performance value this side of $100k.

does not look boring to me one bit

[Bumpinjeep]

[QUOTE=RugbyBro;29414817
If you really want a B58, I would look at the Supra. There isn’t a better performance value this side of $100k.[/QUOTE]

I don't know, if you're looking at pure performance for price, hard to beat a Mustang or a Camaro in terms of money. At under $100K, I would throw in a C8 as it offers much better performance than the Supra at well under $100K (in a normal market, not this banana one).

[MooMooM2]

Id pick a corolla GR over a supra personally

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

B58 is pretty boring/sterile when paired with ZF8 tbh and the only new manual B58 you can buy is a Supra. S58 is a typical big turbo motor, everything up top but again ZF8 is a let down with it so for me it would need to be a manual. S55 is the gnarliest of the group, much “angrier” character in comparison to the other two and can be had with a DCT, which suits it very well.

If you really want a B58, I would look at the Supra. There isn’t a better performance value this side of $100k.

I always said the same thing as you about b58 with zf8, some called me crazy... youtube did too much damage with its youtubers...

Originally Posted by MooMooM2

Id pick a corolla GR over a supra personally

A three-cylinder engine with less torque at low rpm than a chainsaw?

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by MooMooM2

does not look boring to me one bit

We’re not talking about cars here, we’re talking about motors & drivetrains. B58 + ZF8 is effective but sterile IMO. Never once have I gotten into a B58 car and thought “wow this motor has so much character” I usually think “wow this motor is really smooth & effective, would be a great commuter”. Throw in a 6 speed or DCT and I’ll almost guarantee my opinion will change… the culprit here is zf8.

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

I don't know, if you're looking at pure performance for price, hard to beat a Mustang or a Camaro in terms of money. At under $100K, I would throw in a C8 as it offers much better performance than the Supra at well under $100K (in a normal market, not this banana one).

Oh mustang and Camaro are most certainly in that mix - but as a performance platform, for the money, Supra is unmatched. I really didn’t want to believe it either but a lot of the fastest guys around my local track and on the time attack circuit are running Supras. I would say the edge over a 1LE or Mach1 is that the Supra is significantly lighter. But neither competitor is anything to scoff at, with the right driver they’re frikkin quick.

[MooMooM2]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

I always said the same thing as you about b58 with zf8, some called me crazy... youtube did too much damage with its youtubers...




A three-cylinder engine with less torque at low rpm than a chainsaw?

lol Misha has driven most cars, like him or not he has some experience I would say and he seemed to enjoy the b58 there with its "crappy" zf.

As far as low torque on the 3cyl engine, sure probably not the most fun street car but will sing at the track as basically every person that has driven one has said (at least the yaris which is a similar experience). Id take it over the supra any day.

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

We’re not talking about cars here, we’re talking about motors & drivetrains. B58 + ZF8 is effective but sterile IMO. Never once have I gotten into a B58 car and thought “wow this motor has so much character” I usually think “wow this motor is really smooth & effective, would be a great commuter”. Throw in a 6 speed or DCT and I’ll almost guarantee my opinion will change… the culprit here is zf8.



Oh mustang and Camaro are most certainly in that mix - but as a performance platform, for the money, Supra is unmatched. I really didn’t want to believe it either but a lot of the fastest guys around my local track and on the time attack circuit are running Supras. I would say the edge over a 1LE or Mach1 is that the Supra is significantly lighter. But neither competitor is anything to scoff at, with the right driver they’re frikkin quick.

But so many call the M2C character less too with not much humph at low or high rpm unless tunned, with an engine that sounds like a lawn mower. Different motor, S58 but I really did not think the ZF was that bad. Its not better than the DCT but it suited the car just fine.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by MooMooM2

lol Misha has driven most cars, like him or not he has some experience I would say and he seemed to enjoy the b58 there with its "crappy" zf.

As far as low torque on the 3cyl engine, sure probably not the most fun street car but will sing at the track as basically every person that has driven one has said (at least the yaris which is a similar experience). Id take it over the supra any day.




But so many call the M2C character less too with not much humph at low or high rpm unless tunned, with an engine that sounds like a lawn mower. Different motor, S58 but I really did not think the ZF was that bad. Its not better than the DCT but it suited the car just fine.

I’d say it should be the exact opposite, you should take the GR Corolla for the road and the Supra for track. It’s really not a close comparison in terms of track performance and ceiling.

I can agree with you on the M2C, it suffers from a factory de-tune - M2CS has a truer version of S55 tuning and was subsequently lauded from an engine/drivetrain perspective. Shame since the working hardware is the same across all S55s (except GTS, CS oil pan). And you’re kind of making the point about ZF8 for me… like it gets the job done, it’s just fine. It’s not exciting or has really any character. It’s a marvel of automatic transmission engineering since it’s so good, but devoid of the character of a DCT or the true involvement of a manual.

[MooMooM2]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

I’d say it should be the exact opposite, you should take the GR Corolla for the road and the Supra for track. It’s really not a close comparison in terms of track performance and ceiling.

I can agree with you on the M2C, it suffers from a factory de-tune - M2CS has a truer version of S55 tuning and was subsequently lauded from an engine/drivetrain perspective. Shame since the working hardware is the same across all S55s (except GTS, CS oil pan). And you’re kind of making the point about ZF8 for me… like it gets the job done, it’s just fine. It’s not exciting or has really any character. It’s a marvel of automatic transmission engineering since it’s so good, but devoid of the character of a DCT or the true involvement of a manual.

I think we agree.

Maybe I am wrong but doesn't the supra have the same ZF trans as the m240, g8x, ect? I guess now you can get it with a manual which I think makes it better (except everyone will complain about the crappy bmw manual). I will admit I think my disdain for the supra is the way it looks, just don't love it (then again don't love the m240 either).

[buckybadger]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

B58 is pretty boring/sterile when paired with ZF8 tbh and the only new manual B58 you can buy is a Supra. S58 is a typical big turbo motor, everything up top but again ZF8 is a let down with it so for me it would need to be a manual. S55 is the gnarliest of the group, much "angrier" character in comparison to the other two and can be had with a DCT, which suits it very well.

If you really want a B58, I would look at the Supra. There isn't a better performance value this side of $100k.

I have a b58 in my X5 and s55 in my M2C.

I enjoy the s55 paired with DCT by miles. Makes me smile every time.

The b58 is refined and good for daily use but I'd take the older engine any day.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

I’d say it should be the exact opposite, you should take the GR Corolla for the road and the Supra for track. It’s really not a close comparison in terms of track performance and ceiling.

I can agree with you on the M2C, it suffers from a factory de-tune - M2CS has a truer version of S55 tuning and was subsequently lauded from an engine/drivetrain perspective. Shame since the working hardware is the same across all S55s (except GTS, CS oil pan). And you’re kind of making the point about ZF8 for me… like it gets the job done, it’s just fine. It’s not exciting or has really any character. It’s a marvel of automatic transmission engineering since it’s so good, but devoid of the character of a DCT or the true involvement of a manual.

The oil pan is the same on all s55s, on m4 gts/cs the difference is the longer lever sensor and spacer.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

The oil pan is the same on all s55s, on m4 gts/cs the difference is the longer lever sensor and spacer.

There’s two different oil pan part #s:

GTS/CS S55: 11137838706
Regular S55: 11137854463

Regardless you can overfill a regular S55 for increased oil capacity. My point wasn’t really about parts, as the functional parts are the same (except GTS water injection).

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

There’s two different oil pan part #s:

GTS/CS S55: 11137838706
Regular S55: 11137854463

Regardless you can overfill a regular S55 for increased oil capacity. My point wasn’t really about parts, as the functional parts are the same (except GTS water injection).

The part number changes because the gts is made of magnesium alloy.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

The part number changes because the gts is made of magnesium alloy.

Yes… so they are not the same…

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Yes… so they are not the same…

I mean they are physically the same.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

I mean they are physically the same.

1. Not what you said

2. Idk why we are even talking about this, it has nothing to do with the point I was making as functionally it makes no difference