[Romo]

Originally Posted by Romo

I haven the M2 6MT on order, but next weekend I`ll test drive the M3 DCT!! The opportunity was given to me by the dealer I ordered the M2. Well I do like that

Will report what the M3 is all about, I will compare to my previous E46 M3, E92 M3 6MT, E82 1M 6MT and my Cayman GTS PDK........

To be continued

Well, today it was that day.........

An M3 was promised, but in stead it became an M4, DCT Silverstone, fabulous looking!

But the drive was far from it;

The car is big and feels big, the steering has little feel in it, I liked comfort setting the most, the other 2 modi felt way too heavy and artificial.

The seats have no upper leg extension (the previous generations had them) and IMHO they are definatly needed for better leg support !!

Dampening modes; Comfort is best

Brake pedal very hard and direct (Metal brake discs) never ever felt brakes like this before in any BMW I`ve driven.

DCT, now this was an utter disappointment too me, I do compare it to my previous Cayman GTS PDK.
It was en felt very slow, not intuitive what so ever, too much time between action(= pulling the paddle) and the reaction(=Gear change).
Changing from D to S mode (each 3 modi) did not make a lot of difference, it felt akward and far from satisfying or what I aspected with the PDK in my mind.

IMO there is no way it can be compared to the Porkers PDK, witch is miles ahead.

The M4 drives well, but lacks sportiness where M used to be known for, it lacks feel, it lacks feedback, it lacks agility,it feels a kind of dead, very uninspiring.
Too much settings, too much electronics, and with all possibilities there is no setting that suits the car, very disappointing.

I wish I could have report differently as I have a long M history, but really I can not in al my honesty.

[BruceM]

Thank you. You do not know how much time and angst you just saved me while I wait for the M2. Everything you just said is EXACTLY what I was afraid of. I will be a MT guy no matter what, but I'm most surprised about your DCT comments. I thought this was supposed to be among the best, quickest, most responsive trannies of its kind?

[Aloha Joe]

Romo, Thanks for your review but I have a question or two. Have you driven a M235i and if yes, was the steering feel the same as on the M4?

[csbear]

Originally Posted by Romo

Well, today it was that day.........

An M3 was promised, but in stead it became an M4, DCT Silverstone, fabulous looking!

But the drive was far from it;

The car is big and feels big, the steering has little feel in it, I liked comfort setting the most, the other 2 modi felt way too heavy and artificial.

Thanks Romo. Do you think this will affect your M2 choice?

Although the M2 is smaller, it is essentially around the same weight, just a little lighter. I assume steering is going to be similar on the M2 as well. So just wondering...

[dammitcubs]

I just sat in an m3 just right now. It was not bad - Comparing it to a Cayman though is unfair - I absolutely loved the cayman and it's driving dynamics but I just couldn't choose it because I cant have a cayman as my only DD car (well i personally can't).

Compared the m3 with my EVO and I liked it. It got me excited for the M2. But i didn't have a change to drive the m3...so to be continued.

I did drive the M235i, and i picked a horrible day for a test drive, (it was raining) but it felt pretty good, not as connected as my EVO.

[Romo]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Thank you. You do not know how much time and angst you just saved me while I wait for the M2. Everything you just said is EXACTLY what I was afraid of. I will be a MT guy no matter what, but I'm most surprised about your DCT comments. I thought this was supposed to be among the best, quickest, most responsive trannies of its kind?

Well, I`m surprised too

I read all about comparisons between PDK and DCT and what people wrote about them, so in my mindset I was convinced the 2 are very comparable.

But what a disappointment I have to say;

The Porker PDK is fast, snappy and crisp
The BMW DCT is slow, it needs too much time for action-reaction, it is far from the intuitive feel from the PDK, with acts instantly.

For example;

Coming fast in to a roundabout, while braking pulling the paddel or automated the porker goes instantaneously, and crisp through the gears, before the roundabout is in the richt gear.
This done in BMW you already in or past the roundabout while the gear is yet changing.

Very, very annoying I have to say.

[Romo]

Originally Posted by Aloha Joe

Romo, Thanks for your review but I have a question or two. Have you driven a M235i and if yes, was the steering feel the same as on the M4?

No I have not, so I can not comment on that.

The overal steering feel is not quite bad on the M4, but feel and feedback is far away, you can defiantly feel the size and the weight of the car.
In comfort it felt best for me, the other settings I found to have, too much resistant and also snappy feel and too much self centering force.

The steering wheel size is great and far better than the alcantara Cayman GTS steering wheel witch I disliked in feel and how thin it was.

[Romo]

Originally Posted by csbear

Thanks Romo. Do you think this will affect your M2 choice?

Although the M2 is smaller, it is essentially around the same weight, just a little lighter. I assume steering is going to be similar on the M2 as well. So just wondering...

Could be, but the wheelbase is here the main different point in how the car will drive en react IMHO

Also the M2 is more simple in it`s set up, less electronics, less choices that must be made.

That is also a weak point of the M4, too much gadgets, too much possibilities, too much choices ............that makes it too much a compromised car IMHO

That is far of how drivers car has to be, it is about siting and driving, and it should be good without all fancy possibilities !

I`m glad I opted for the more simple M2 with 6MT I know it is the best and only choice to be made.

[Romo]

Originally Posted by dammitcubs

I just sat in an m3 just right now. It was not bad - Comparing it to a Cayman though is unfair - I absolutely loved the cayman and it's driving dynamics but I just couldn't choose it because I cant have a cayman as my only DD car (well i personally can't).

Compared the m3 with my EVO and I liked it. It got me excited for the M2. But i didn't have a change to drive the m3...so to be continued.

I did drive the M235i, and i picked a horrible day for a test drive, (it was raining) but it felt pretty good, not as connected as my EVO.

Off course a comparison Cayman and M3-4 is not fair, but I only compared the PDK vs the DCT !!

I had to be sure if the DCT matches the PDK, I now know it is far from it, some people will disagree, but IMHO the systems, however technically the same set up, the feel and interaction of those systems can not be compared what so ever.

Ik liked the Porsche`s PDK far more better, like I said, crisp and snappy, intuitive, instant action-reaction, that is wat I want, no more, no less !!

[BMWPWR]

Not sure if it really makes any difference although the M-DCT was reconfigured for the M2 whatever that means exactly is yet to be known...

[Nine Lives]

Originally Posted by Romo

Well, today it was that day.........

An M3 was promised, but in stead it became an M4, DCT Silverstone, fabulous looking!

But the drive was far from it;

The car is big and feels big, the steering has little feel in it, I liked comfort setting the most, the other 2 modi felt way too heavy and artificial.

The seats have no upper leg extension (the previous generations had them) and IMHO they are definatly needed for better leg support !!

Dampening modes; Comfort is best

Brake pedal very hard and direct (Metal brake discs) never ever felt brakes like this before in any BMW I`ve driven.
UDCT, now this was an utter disappointment too me, I do compare it to my previous Cayman GTS PDK.
It was en felt very slow, not intuitive what so ever, too much time between action(= pulling the paddle) and the reaction(=Gear change).
Changing from D to S mode (each 3 modi) did not make a lot of difference, it felt akward and far from satisfying or what I aspected with the PDK in my mind.

IMO there is no way it can be compared to the Porkers PDK, witch is miles ahead.

The M4 drives well, but lacks sportiness where M used to be known for, it lacks feel, it lacks feedback, it lacks agility,it feels a kind of dead, very uninspiring.
Too much settings, too much electronics, and with all possibilities there is no setting that suits the car, very disappointing.

I wish I could have report differently as I have a long M history, but really I can not in al my honesty.

Agree with this on so many levels,the M4 is a big car with too much electronic veiling to get in the way.
Bare in mind the M2 has the same brakes,steering and DCT to name a few and hopefully the engineers will have learnt from these shortfallings found in the F80/82.
Await the first road tests with baited breath

[crqflier]

I have to disagree with every aspect of this M3 (M4) evaluation except the seat extension comment and a bit on steering feel. My experience with the f80 is participating in an M Performance School for a day. My current rig is an e36m which I have over a dozen years experience in. I've owned a modded e90 335 6mt. I was expecting the f80 to be bloated, heavy, slow to respond, but was stunned. The car behaves and feels like a much smaller car than its size would have you believe. And the DCT is magic on the track. Almost felt like cheating.

I personally had a huge bias against the f80 (and have been glued to the m2 for the past year+ waiting) but that track day changed it for me. I'm very open to compare and consider the m3 now. For me though, either will be 6mt.

Nobody here knows how the m2 feels, but I for sure wouldn't rush to judgment without checking them both out yourself.

[Benzima]

Trying an M4 6MT in a couple of hours. Will post comments right after.

[pruettfan]

The shift time of the DCT is about 80 ms the PDK about 75ms from what I could find. I doubt many humans can detect the 5ms difference. I am 100% sure and M4 drives differently than a Cayman, I can't imagine anyone would think they should drive the same. I have never read a review about a BMW DCT that said it was slow or sluggish (I have read many reviews) and the data doesn't indicate that to be the case so I will take the review for what it is at face value, expectations not being met for this reviewer.

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by Nine Lives

Agree with this on so many levels,the M4 is a big car with too much electronic veiling to get in the way.
Bare in mind the M2 has the same brakes,steering and DCT to name a few and hopefully the engineers will have learnt from these shortfallings found in the F80/82.
Await the first road tests with baited breath

What is wrong with the M3 brakes? I haven't heard of any issues. Same with the DCT...the above review was the first time I've heard those complaints. The steering? Yes, it's EPS but at least it has improved over the initial steering on the non M cars.

If the brakes and DCT are considered shortfallings, then the M2 might turn out to be the best car ever built...

[Hegge]

Thanks for the review Romo. I am queasy about getting an M3 and wasting money only to be pissed off in the end. Sounds like the M4 drove a little like a tank? Something that drives like a tank is 100% what I don't want. Seems like the smaller M2 is for me.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

The shift time of the DCT is about 80 ms the PDK about 75ms from what I could find. I doubt many humans can detect the 5ms difference. I am 100% sure and M4 drives differently than a Cayman, I can't imagine anyone would think they should drive the same. I have never read a review about a BMW DCT that said it was slow or sluggish (I have read many reviews) and the data doesn't indicate that to be the case so I will take the review for what it is at face value, expectations not being met for this reviewer.

I have to agree here. Feeling the DCT on BMWs for myself, I know there is no way any other transmission could be felt by a human being to be faster in shifting. But that wasn't exactly what the OP was saying. I've read plenty of reviews on other cars commenting on how sort of telepathic the shift engagements are in relation to flicking the paddles. The difference is only in the time it takes for you to flick the paddle and the computers to start the change. That could be very different from car to car, enough in some cases to feel sluggish comparatively.

In my experience I can't imagine anyone feeling like that time is slow on the BMW DCT but it could just as well be that OP had comfort settings for the transmission. This should generally be a slower reacting process overall. Using the most aggressive transmission settings would have made a more comparable experience. Even to his point about downshifting mid corner of a roundabout - I don't think the right settings were being used (unless he was hard braking very late into the turn). Either way you can't fault the car for that.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by kovsky

Resale value = M2 by a mile. I can see this car being worth all of msrp (even used) for the next 12+ months and may keep its value for much longer... That made it an easy purchase for me knowing I can get my money back at anytime, should I want to.

I'm still saying that in year five.....

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

I have to agree here. Feeling the DCT on BMWs for myself, I know there is no way any other transmission could be felt by a human being to be faster in shifting. But that wasn't exactly what the OP was saying. I've read plenty of reviews on other cars commenting on how sort of telepathic the shift engagements are in relation to flicking the paddles. The difference is only in the time it takes for you to flick the paddle and the computers to start the change. That could be very different from car to car, enough in some cases to feel sluggish comparatively.

In my experience I can't imagine anyone feeling like that time is slow on the BMW DCT but it could just as well be that OP had comfort settings for the transmission. This should generally be a slower reacting process overall. Using the most aggressive transmission settings would have made a more comparable experience. Even to his point about downshifting mid corner of a roundabout - I don't think the right settings were being used (unless he was hard braking very late into the turn). Either way you can't fault the car for that.

Agree. Romo are you sure you had the transmission in the quickest modes ?

[Robin_NL]

I just have to pull the handbrake in this thread. Romo and I know eachother, no offence and perceptions/ideas sometimes differ, but tbh and I've also driven an M4 DCT it's not at all what Romo is stating here imho.

OK it's big(ger)/huge/stretched vs 1M and E46 M3(I slao had E46 M3 and E90 M3 both 6MT in the past) we all get that...and it's filled with knobs/buttons/electronics.


BUT it certainly is/feels not too heavy for its size. It steers in excellent for its size, incredibly crisp, the engine is a jewel, and the DCT is just very very fast in up and downshifting.

I think there was something wrong with that car/DCT, or he just was in the 'wrong' driving modus? Who knows...

I don't know but again, I cannot understand how he is writing this review like that. Come on Robert I already told you that and on our own Dutch forum both Joost and TomGTR(both M4 owners overthere) also disagree with you....

You probably drove a rebadged 335d coupé

I also asked this DCT 'issue' on the German 1erforum.de and there was also a response of a guy owning 2 DCT BMWs saying those gearboxes shift down fine and fast....

Anyway M2 will only be even better(DCT and MT) in terms of agility.

Cheers
Robin

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Romo

Well, today it was that day.........

An M3 was promised, but in stead it became an M4, DCT Silverstone, fabulous looking!

But the drive was far from it;

The car is big and feels big, the steering has little feel in it, I liked comfort setting the most, the other 2 modi felt way too heavy and artificial.

The seats have no upper leg extension (the previous generations had them) and IMHO they are definatly needed for better leg support !!

Dampening modes; Comfort is best

Brake pedal very hard and direct (Metal brake discs) never ever felt brakes like this before in any BMW I`ve driven.

DCT, now this was an utter disappointment too me, I do compare it to my previous Cayman GTS PDK.
It was en felt very slow, not intuitive what so ever, too much time between action(= pulling the paddle) and the reaction(=Gear change).
Changing from D to S mode (each 3 modi) did not make a lot of difference, it felt akward and far from satisfying or what I aspected with the PDK in my mind.

IMO there is no way it can be compared to the Porkers PDK, witch is miles ahead.

The M4 drives well, but lacks sportiness where M used to be known for, it lacks feel, it lacks feedback, it lacks agility,it feels a kind of dead, very uninspiring.
Too much settings, too much electronics, and with all possibilities there is no setting that suits the car, very disappointing.

I wish I could have report differently as I have a long M history, but really I can not in al my honesty.

Interesting review... it doesn't really matter that I think most of the stuff you said is simply off base and inaccurate

The DCT in the M4 is as or MORE responsive than the PDK in the 2015 911 GTS I almost bought. I far preferred it. You may be one of the first people I've heard that did not like the DCT in manual mode.

The M4 brakes are great and hold up to heavy track abuse very, very well. Good feel and good modulation... and great stopping power when needed. All the car needs for heavy track use is a simple pad swap.

My F82 M4 is easily MORE agile than the E92 M3 it replaced and, IMO, is very tossable and fun. It has notably more ultimate grip and better stability over rough surfaces at the limit than its predecessor.

Steering feel is subjective. I'll leave it at that...

IMO, you had the car set up improperly and didn't get the true experience. Put another way, the 991 911 GTS is definitely a better car than my M4 in many ways (the PDK was not one of them) but the gap was close enough that I couldn't pull the trigger given the price gap. That says a lot about the M4 IMO as the GTS is simply a stellar car.

If the M2 has the M4 brakes and DCT feel, coupled with a smaller wheel base and slightly lower weight, the M2 will be a huge win and an outstanding value.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree. Romo are you sure you had the transmission in the quickest modes ?

There is absolutely no way he did. The DCT in the middle or aggressive shift modes shifts fast enough (up and down) that you perceive it to be instant. No lag. No delay.

The only time there is even a slight delay is when the transmission is VERY cold (likely below freezing cold start for about 5 minutes of driving).