[overcoil]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

Why would you take a M235i over the Cayman GT4, when the M235i is a notch below the M2, and for all intents and purposes, the Cayman GT4 maybe 2 notches above the M2?

And why the Alfa 4C and M2 being a tough choice? You mentioned the DCT in the Alfa, but chances are M2 will have a DCT as well. The Alfa is down on weight, and (yet weighs more in the US) and down on power, but would possible be the better handler.

Someone had mentioned that the Cayman had won out in terms of best all around it when compared to the Elise and 4C, so how would an M2, which would be possibly be nipping at the GT4's heels, be a tough choice between the 4C?

I don't think specs like greater MSRP or greater power and speed are good determiners of which cars the most fun or offer the greatest experience.

The Alfa 4C with modest power just seems to offer construction and looks, non-assisted steering and enough quickness to be a rarity. Someone thought the Alfa might have used a traditional transmission and I mention it uses a double-clutch, I'd enjoy both manual or double-clutch trans, so that spec wouldn't exclude a car necessarily - but I do like the simplicity of a manual.

I'd rather have a 1M over any Cayman, so I'm fascinated by what the M2 could be. And if I decided to go upmarket then either an M4/M3 would be my preferred choice.

I used to be very into Porsche, up into the early nineties Porsche was still hand-forming fenders and no other car had interior ergonomics like a 911. I appreciate the reliability and cornering of a GT3, but if I wanted to experience the upper echelon of performance I'd probably prefer the new Yamaha R1, maybe Ducati 899.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

Someone had mentioned that the Cayman had won out in terms of best all around it when compared to the Elise and 4C, so how would an M2, which would be possibly be nipping at the GT4's heels, be a tough choice between the 4C?

Another fringe benefit of the M2: unlike the Cayman, Elise and 4C, four people can enjoy the motoring fun at the same time.

[JustChris]

^^^ yup for so many the 2seats only rules out a lot of the M2 competitors.

[vantagesc]

Originally Posted by smakdown61

Are you guys really cross shopping what will likely be a (usd) $55k M2 to a $100+ Cayman GT4? If I could afford the GT4 I wouldn't be on this forum lol.

I agree that the M2 and Cayman GT4 are not direct competitors. Even aside from price, one is designed to be an everyday sports coupe and one is a ground up sports car. But for me it's M2 + existing Elise vs. GT4 as my only car.

Originally Posted by IS3andME

And why the Alfa 4C and M2 being a tough choice? You mentioned the DCT in the Alfa, but chances are M2 will have a DCT as well. The Alfa is down on weight, and (yet weighs more in the US) and down on power, but would possible be the better handler.

Someone had mentioned that the Cayman had won out in terms of best all around it when compared to the Elise and 4C, so how would an M2, which would be possibly be nipping at the GT4's heels, be a tough choice between the 4C?

As Scott mentioned, it's not just about performance. True sports cars feel a lot different than even M cars. Low to the ground, the noise, the feel of the car, etc. If someone is going to drive a car once a week, they want to be entertained.

In terms of performance, I'm willing to bet that the GT4 will be faster at most race tracks, but the M2 will cover ground faster in the real world. The GT4 will probably give up a bit of day to day usability over the Cayman GTS. The M2 might even be more fun to drive in day to day situations, who knows.

[IEDEI]

the Cayman GTS is a better comparison to the M2 market. Sorry but the GT4 will be in a different league to the M2.


I had a chance to spend some time driving a Cayman GTS several months ago. I liked it but walked away preferring the 1M driving experience. It seems that as long as the M2 continues the 1M genetics it too will
compare well to the GTS.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by vantagesc

In terms of performance, I'm willing to bet that the GT4 will be faster at most race tracks, but the M2 will cover ground faster in the real world. The GT4 will probably give up a bit of day to day usability over the Cayman GTS. The M2 might even be more fun to drive in day to day situations, who knows.

The M2 will be faster than the GT4 in the real world where? I'll bet the M2 will feel faster, but even the Cayman GTS is likely to equal it on the freeway, and it will absolutely run away and hide anywhere else. The M2's torque advantage will likely be nullified in cut and thrust traffic by a that fraction of lag.

I own a 1M, have plenty of seat time in quick Caymans but don't particularly love them, and have a deposit down on a GT4 (but I'm not sure I'll take it). I'd probably have gotten a new GT3 if it had been available with a manual.

I'm not shopping for performance exactly, but for adjust-ability, a certain balance of grip and power, interactivity and experience. My predictions- I expect each to be strong in different areas:

The M2 will probably be more fun at lower (street) speeds. It will be easier to steer with the right foot because it will have less grip overall. I like the overall size and traction vs power balance of the 1M, and the M2 should continue this. As speed climbs the chassis will prove less competent and it'll be less fun than the GT4. It likely won't be track-durable or warranted, so the combo would likely restrict it to a street car.

Things that could tip me towards the M2: a more composed chassis on/ over the limit, improved progressiveness over the limit at higher speeds, better track durability/ warranty. More suspension adjust-ability (camber, swaybars). All while not losing the playful/ sideways character.

The GT4 will probably have too much grip for its own good, making it less mobile and fun at low speeds. As speeds climb it will come into its own, however it'll probably always be more grip than would be ideal to get the chassis really moving around anywhere short of the track. It'll still be good fun up to 8/10ths, beyond which the rear suspension will let it down (vs a 911/ GT3) making it less progressive at the limit or rewarding over it. It will likely come with a warranty good for the track, good because that's where it'll be most fun.

Things that could tip me towards the GT4: more ability to steer with the right foot, especially at low speeds. A more playful/ progressive rear end at and over the limit. Improved power to weight ratio vs msrp.

I don't see the 4C as having the chassis tuning needed to go with its spec sheet, and wouldn't consider it. The GT350 or F Type R/ GT3 might make the list. The M3/ M4 won't- too big, as the AMG GT3 will likely be. I've got a few other cars, so I'm trying to fill a "fun, mostly street, serious driver's car" spot in the fleet.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

...I don't see the 4C as having the chassis tuning needed to go with its spec sheet, and wouldn't consider it. The GT350 or F Type R/ GT3 might make the list. The M3/ M4 won't- too big, as the AMG GT3 will likely be. I've got a few other cars, so I'm trying to fill a "fun, mostly street, serious driver's car" spot in the fleet.

You make some good points on the GT4 and the M2. But I agree with some other posters above: they'll be in very different price points, so not really an apples-to-apples cross-shopping comparison.
In terms of the other cars you mention, the F Type R stood out to me as a bit out of place on the list. I have driven this car a few times on the road, and it feels pretty good... but you can really feel it's weight. I spoke to one of the Jaguar pro drivers, and he admitted to me that it was "rubish" on the track.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by DVC

In terms of the other cars you mention, the F Type R stood out to me as a bit out of place on the list. I have driven this car a few times on the road, and it feels pretty good... but you can really feel it's weight. I spoke to one of the Jaguar pro drivers, and he admitted to me that it was "rubish" on the track.

That's why I specified the upcoming GT3 version, or whatever it will be called. The street car is closer to a GT car. However it's one of the closest 911 competitors out there, but lower cost for equal power and with more of the hooligan attitude of a BMW M. When they come out with a track spec, which is rumored, I suspect it will be very good...

[onatuesday]

I would be happy if the M2 even comes close in terms of sports car characteristics to the Cayman GTS much less the GT4. If you haven't driven a GTS then you haven't driven one of the best sports cars ever made. It's astonishingly good and I can't imagine how good the GT4 is going to be. If you think a M2 will even come close then your expectations are out of whack

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by smakdown61

Are you guys really cross shopping what will likely be a (usd) $55k M2 to a $100+ Cayman GT4? If I could afford the GT4 I wouldn't be on this forum lol.

Rennlist is the driest most boring forum. It's a place for middle age men to hear themselves on how awesome they are.

[cc3]

I have a 1M and it is one of the best cars I have ever owned will keep forever. Looking to add a M2 or Cayman GT4.. The 1M and Cayman R were so closely matched however I am concerned that Porsche has moved the game on so much with the Cayman GTS that the M2 won't get close to the GT4 or even GTS.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

That's why I specified the upcoming GT3 version, or whatever it will be called. The street car is closer to a GT car. However it's one of the closest 911 competitors out there, but lower cost for equal power and with more of the hooligan attitude of a BMW M. When they come out with a track spec, which is rumored, I suspect it will be very good...

I've seen the F Type R compared to the 911 a lot... in terms of a nice refined ride, buttoned-down road handling without being harsh, and impressive acceleration, I can't disagree. Otherwise, it feels pretty different: tons of torque, very heavy, mediocre steering, and suspension calibration suited more to road than track. Don't get me wrong, I had a blast driving this car on the road, but I didn't walk away feeling like it was a 911 competitor.
A track-spec version may change that, but I'm not sure how they would shed enough weight to accomplish this. (Car and Driver lists the F Type R at 3917 lbs.)

[Pete_vB]

We'll see- 98% of 911s are over-tired IMHO, so a direct "911 alike" is perhaps not what I'm after in a street car. And I did say I'm looking for a mostly street car, though my idea is different than most.

For those that think the Cayman GTS is the second coming, it came in 3rd in EVO's car of the year voting. The F-Type R was just ahead of it in second.

I've always felt the Cayman is an opportunity for an epic car spoiled. It should handily walk the 911, but if you've ever had the opportunity to drive one over the limit you'll know it doesn't. You need to keep it relatively tidy, need to keep your foot out of it that bit more on exit, and so far they simply can't handle power nearly as well. Chalk it up to that strut rear suspension. Bottom line, the GT4 will need to get the back end working more like a 911 if it's going to get my money.

Video by EVO below pitting the GTS against a 10 year old GT3 here. Both are great cars, but compare the size of the smile on his face:

I'm looking forward to seeing what the AP and the GT guys can do. As for the M2, it will be outclassed in some ways absolutely, just as the 1M was vs the Cayman R, but it's the size of that smile that counts, and on that score I fully expect it to be able to compete.

[vantagesc]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

The M2 will be faster than the GT4 in the real world where? I'll bet the M2 will feel faster, but even the Cayman GTS is likely to equal it on the freeway, and it will absolutely run away and hide anywhere else. The M2's torque advantage will likely be nullified in cut and thrust traffic by a that fraction of lag.

In all the same ways that the 1M was probably faster than the Cayman R in day to day situations. Torque everywhere and effectively the same amount of mechanical grip (though possibly some traction issues). Most people aren't revving out their engines to redline on the way to work, so that tips in favor of the BMW. I'm not talking about a drive on a secluded mountain road. My perspective on this may be pretty different than yours since I live in Los Angeles. What matters on my weekend drive and what matters on my daily drive are two different things.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by vantagesc

In all the same ways that the 1M was probably faster than the Cayman R in day to day situations. Torque everywhere and effectively the same amount of mechanical grip (though possibly some traction issues).

Yea, I've got a friend with Cayman 3.8S, quite close to the anticipated Cayman GT4 specs in terms of power to weight (375 hp). I expected the 1M's torque advantage down low would put it ahead when we rolled on in higher gears, but in reality there are essentially no situations other than neither of us downshifting whatsoever that the Cayman doesn't have the 1M covered handily. It'll put on nearly a length as the 1M spools, then it's close but creeping away, then it walks away up top- true even in 5th. My 1M is only ~10hp up on stock, and I expect the M2 to be more and hopefully a little lighter, but then I also expect the GT4 to have more than 375 hp. The 1M feels faster due to power delivery, but even daily driving a Cayman in this power class is faster, and that's before you turn. As you might expect from a car with slightly more power and a significant weight advantage- the big on paper torque advantage is essentially nullified by wight and gearing.

[vantagesc]

Yep, that's 3.8S vs. 1M though. I haven't heard anywhere that the GT4 would get more than about 380hp, but maybe Porsche will say it only has 380hp, but in fact give it more.

Like I said, most people aren't revving their engines out on the way to work. If your commute permits that, then great. Particularly with PDK, it would be easy to keep the engine spinning with no effort. With my manual Lotus, I know how to keep the needle between 6k and 8k, but it takes work. Who needs coffee in the morning....

[Pete_vB]

Not a Lotus. Revs not required. One can argue if that's a good thing or not.

[vantagesc]

To me, Caymans feel like they need some revs before coming alive. Definitely more linear though and less of an on/off switch than a 2ZZ-GE. I know some people are hoping for a 3.6L in the GT4 with more revs vs. a standard 3.8L.

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

We'll see- 98% of 911s are over-tired IMHO, so a direct "911 alike" is perhaps not what I'm after in a street car. And I did say I'm looking for a mostly street car, though my idea is different than most.

For those that think the Cayman GTS is the second coming, it came in 3rd in EVO's car of the year voting. The F-Type R was just ahead of it in second.

I've always felt the Cayman is an opportunity for an epic car spoiled. It should handily walk the 911, but if you've ever had the opportunity to drive one over the limit you'll know it doesn't. You need to keep it relatively tidy, need to keep your foot out of it that bit more on exit, and so far they simply can't handle power nearly as well. Chalk it up to that strut rear suspension. Bottom line, the GT4 will need to get the back end working more like a 911 if it's going to get my money.

Video by EVO below pitting the GTS against a 10 year old GT3 here. Both are great cars, but compare the size of the smile on his face:

I'm looking forward to seeing what the AP and the GT guys can do. As for the M2, it will be outclassed in some ways absolutely, just as the 1M was vs the Cayman R, but it's the size of that smile that counts, and on that score I fully expect it to be able to compete.

Having driven both the F-Type R and the GTS, I'd take the GTS any day. I smiled equally as much driving both cars but for completely different reasons. The F-Type R makes you smile because of how outrageous the exhaust is and its hooliganism but the GTS (which also has an outstanding exhaust) made me smile simply because of how good it is. It's much more of a driver's car and yes about as neutral as a street car can get which is a good thing in my book.

And another car that makes me smile a ton (especially when I can do powerslides at will) is the M4 which came 9th out of 10th in Evo's test so please excuse if I'm not inclined to put a lot of weight in their results.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

The M2 will probably be more fun at lower (street) speeds. It will be easier to steer with the right foot because it will have less grip overall. I like the overall size and traction vs power balance of the 1M, and the M2 should continue this. As speed climbs the chassis will prove less competent and it'll be less fun than the GT4. It likely won't be track-durable or warranted, so the combo would likely restrict it to a street car.

Things that could tip me towards the M2: a more composed chassis on/ over the limit, improved progressiveness over the limit at higher speeds, better track durability/ warranty. More suspension adjust-ability (camber, swaybars). All while not losing the playful/ sideways character.

The GT4 will probably have too much grip for its own good, making it less mobile and fun at low speeds. As speeds climb it will come into its own, however it'll probably always be more grip than would be ideal to get the chassis really moving around anywhere short of the track. It'll still be good fun up to 8/10ths, beyond which the rear suspension will let it down (vs a 911/ GT3) making it less progressive at the limit or rewarding over it. It will likely come with a warranty good for the track, good because that's where it'll be most fun.

Things that could tip me towards the GT4: more ability to steer with the right foot, especially at low speeds. A more playful/ progressive rear end at and over the limit. Improved power to weight ratio vs msrp.

I don't see the 4C as having the chassis tuning needed to go with its spec sheet, and wouldn't consider it. The GT350 or F Type R/ GT3 might make the list. The M3/ M4 won't- too big, as the AMG GT3 will likely be. I've got a few other cars, so I'm trying to fill a "fun, mostly street, serious driver's car" spot in the fleet.

I agree with your points on the M2, the Cayman and to some degree with the 911; however, respectfully, just like many of us, emotionally you are confusing yourself in one area I think.

You know very well that a car's street credentials mostly don't translate into track credentials. If the playful nature of a car combined with some practicality and usability is what you are looking for, I think the M2 will be hard to better by any Cayman or any 911.

I highly doubt and never seen a BMW perform better at the track than any Porsche of same era, may be my historical knowledge does not go far back enough. As we are seeing with the current F10, F13 F8x M series, once these cars get above a certain power to weight ratio, the rear end cannot keep enough traction due to that 'perfect' weight distribution BMW claims. As you mention, the Cayman and particularly the 911 has a much more mature and advantageous weight distribution for track performance and 911s rear suspension and latest gadgets (dynamic engine and transmission mounts) keep making it better. But that's for the track, I don't think any of that matters that much from a driving enjoyment perspective on the street. On the contrary, on the street, I think the Bimmers offer more lively and entertaining driving feel. Of course this is different for each person, but I believe people that have truly sampled the Porsches can relate to this, not the ones who have been visiting the marque as a tourist.

IMHO, the 911 and its GT3 variant has passed a point in which you really cannot savior its abilities on the street. And given its price point, it is no longer an attractive choice for me even as a dual-purpose car. As I was shopping for a new car this summer having been a Porsche customer for over 10 years, I just could not get excited with the Cayman GTS, nor the GT3. When I test drove the M3/4 however, it had a little bit of a hooligan attitude on the street that somehow appealed to me. I was not expecting to like the car and had never thought of getting a BMW, but it did and I ordered one. I am awaiting for delivery and a new adventure.

For track purposes, what's the point? I never won the DE championship regardless of Caymans or GT3 I had, so if I can get 80% of the enjoyment I got from those cars with an M4 (or even M2) for 50% of the price of a GT3, I think it is a great deal. We'll see of course, right now I am making a lot of assumptions.

Coming back to my initial point, if the M2 is going to be playful enough for street, and you have other means of tracking/racing, how would a Cayman GTS/GT4, 911 GT3 or even the F-type make more sense particularly given their price points? It is hard to find a more suitable car for daily driving than the current M cars in my opinion, and I am not even a BMW fan

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by trinim3

So you're going off what Evo says as the end all, be all for your argument? And your main argument is that the F-Type R makes you smile more than the GTS?

First, I am not arguing. But I am disagreeing with your statement that the Cayman GTS is "one of the best sports cars ever made".

I'm also suggesting that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Out of seven EVO writers, who I consider the best automotive journalists in the world, none put the Cayman GTS higher than 3rd out of 10 cars.

I also disagree with your statement that BMW "won't even come close to the Cayman GTS" with the M2. Head to head testing between the predecessors, the Cayman R and the 1M, often had the 1M ahead.

You might be blown away by the GTS, and that's great- I hope you've had the chance to drive it at the track before coming to that conclusion. I (and others) find it slightly lacking. And yes I've driven it, along with most other Porsches you'll care to mention. Full disclosure, I am also paid to drive and have an opinion occasionally.

The good thing is we can disagree; they make M4s, RS5s and Cayman GTSs to keep guys like you happy, and hopefully they'll also keep making cars to keep guys like me happy too from time to time. Deposit down for the GT4 hoping that's one of them.

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

First, I am not arguing. But am disagreeing with your statement that the Cayman GTS is "one of the best sports cars ever made".

I'm also suggesting that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Out of seven EVO writers, who I consider the best automotive journalists in the world, none put the Cayman GTS higher than 3rd out of 10 cars.

I also disagree with your statement that and that BMW "won't even come close to the Cayman GTS" with the M2. Head to head testing between the predecessors, the Cayman R and the 1M, often had the 1M ahead.

You might be blown away by the GTS, and that's great- I hope you've had the chance to drive it at the track before coming to that conclusion. I (and others) find it slightly lacking. And yes I've driven it, along with most other Porsches you'll care to mention. Full disclosure, I am also paid to drive and have an opinion occasionally.

The good thing is we can disagree; they make M4s, RS5s and Cayman GTSs to keep guys like you happy, and hopefully they'll also keep making cars to keep guys like me happy too from time to time. Deposit down for the GT4 hoping that's one of them.

First off indeed. Nice to have a friendly debate with someone as accomplished as you and would join you in celebrating that there are many different cars for different people with different tastes. While I certainly don't get paid to drive, I used to have a SCCA and ASA national racing license and have considerable seat time in formula mazdas, formula vees, formula fords, and formula dodges as well as AM Vantage GT4s and have driven over 70 high performance and exotic cars (I keep records and often write reviews for my own consumption) many of them at the track including the GTS though haven't driven the Ftype R on track only on the street. I say this not to say I'm anywhere as accomplished as you but I am trained enough to have a wide range of experiences driving cars and can spot the subtle differences and nuances between cars with different driving dynamics.

Anyways yes I do stand by my opinion that the GTS is one of the best sports cars ever made and many of the Porsche driving instructors tend to prefer it over any other car in the P car corral if the track is a small/medium twisty track. But absolutely respect that opinions can differ about something so subjective