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      07-30-2019, 02:46 PM   #1
///Monika
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Paint Issue or Repaired ?

Yes, a bit of a mystery so I'll just present what I currently know.

The vehicle was purchased new from dealership [A] on August 7, 2018. We inspected the vehicle on a hot sunny day and didn't identify any issues. The vehicle was taken directly to our garage so we could locate a PPF installer. PPF film was applied on August 28th. When we picked up the vehicle the installer pointed out an area (drivers side rear pillar) commenting that the paint "appeared" defective from the factory. Husband and I agreed we'd address with dealer [B] during it's 1200 mile service.

During the next 11 months the vehicle has rarely been driven (husbands sister is battling cancer) as my Husband travels regularly to assist in his sisters treatments.

So last week he makes an appointment and takes the vehicle to dealership [B] which is closer in proximity than dealership [A]. The SA looked at the paint and apparently had a couple of other individuals analyzing the paint as well. SA returned and indicated that the vehicle "appeared" to have been repainted and a BMW rep would have to look at it directly to assess next steps. I pulled the Carfax report and also formally requested dealership [A] provide the VDC report and any additional information regarding the vehicle they had on file (mentioning specifically any repairs).

Code:
Carfax data (odometer):
2018-08-07 45 miles
2018-07-05 13 miles
2018-06-19 12 miles
2018-04-16 5 miles
Husband notified me yesterday that the BMW rep will be at dealership [B] end of week. I'd like to share a photo (very difficult to capture with a camera) and see what other M owners think of this paint. Repair or factory blemish(es).

//Monika
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      07-30-2019, 03:24 PM   #2
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And one more photo at a distance. You can see the edge of the PPF just below the blemish(es).
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      07-30-2019, 03:39 PM   #3
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BMW can and do paint repairs if there is damage during shipping. Apparently the dealership should have documentation. I was informed at a VPC tour that the dealership is not required to tell you about the repair since it is supposed to be a "factory" quality repair.
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      07-30-2019, 03:44 PM   #4
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I run a body shop. That car has definitely been repaired. Those are gas out indications from the bondo when it was baked in the booth. There must have been some contamination in the bondo.
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      07-30-2019, 04:04 PM   #5
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The following is noted (Deceptive Trade Practices Act) within our state of residence:

Code:
There is a common misconception among dealers that if vehicle damage falls below a
certain dollar amount, then the damage does not have to be disclosed to consumers. No law or
court decision in ***** supports this dollar limit exemption. On the contrary, if a dealer fails to
disclose damages of any dollar amount, he or she may be in violation of DTPA.
Regardless of where the damage occurred prior to the sale, I don't foresee anyone honestly disclosing this information to us at this point. If it was a matter of record we'd find it but as you can see this is all the information I was able to acquire. We're very concerned as to the type/extent of damage the vehicle sustained. Again, assuming this is damage (keeping an open mind here).

///M

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Originally Posted by AlpsRider View Post
BMW can and do paint repairs if there is damage during shipping. Apparently the dealership should have documentation. I was informed at a VPC tour that the dealership is not required to tell you about the repair since it is supposed to be a "factory" quality repair.
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      07-30-2019, 04:12 PM   #6
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This may very well be the reason the comment was made that the vehicle appears to have been repaired. There was also some comment about the rivets within the trunk area and a visible line of paint variance. We looked but it looks consistent with the passenger side but we're not experts in the matter.

Appreciate your valued input ...

///M

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Originally Posted by twin fed View Post
I run a body shop. That car has definitely been repaired. Those are gas out indications from the bondo when it was baked in the booth. There must have been some contamination in the bondo.
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      07-30-2019, 04:40 PM   #7
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To me this looks like potential solvent popping. During the paint prep stage (highly unlikely at factory), solvent was trapped and "baked" out during the curing phase. As close to 100% as I can be from looking at a picture, this was not a factory issue. These are commonly called pinholes or solvent pop.
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      07-30-2019, 05:08 PM   #8
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Playing devils advocate here (based on the current feedback).

So let's 'suppose' dealership [A] damaged the vehicle and sent it to one of "their" auto body shops to perform the repair. Since this is an AutoNation dealer, they had a choice of [3] AN body shops ranging from 1.5, 11 and 17 miles (1 way) respectively. When evaluating the Carfax data, why are there odometer readings at 12, 13 and 45 ? I wouldn't expect that miles are recorded for each test drive.

Are we to assume a paper trail exists for these repairs ? How would I go about obtaining this information. Is this something we should place in the lap of the BMW representative ?

TIA
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      07-31-2019, 09:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Monika View Post
Playing devils advocate here (based on the current feedback).

So let's 'suppose' dealership [A] damaged the vehicle and sent it to one of "their" auto body shops to perform the repair. Since this is an AutoNation dealer, they had a choice of [3] AN body shops ranging from 1.5, 11 and 17 miles (1 way) respectively. When evaluating the Carfax data, why are there odometer readings at 12, 13 and 45 ? I wouldn't expect that miles are recorded for each test drive.

Are we to assume a paper trail exists for these repairs ? How would I go about obtaining this information. Is this something we should place in the lap of the BMW representative ?

TIA
Carfax data is not really reliable in this circumstance. The repair facility, Auto Nation or others would need to be participants in the data feed to Carfax. The repairing dealer or shop would have had to be a participant. Also not sure how long it takes from the work being done until posting in Carfax.

Bottom line is there is no question this was repaired post factory. If at dealer, there would have to be a record. If at port, there would be a record at BMW.
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      07-31-2019, 11:17 AM   #10
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This was repainted.
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      07-31-2019, 11:37 AM   #11
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Good point regarding Carfax and participation. However, it's also possible that the dealership specifically requested that the information be withheld from Carfax. When I reached out to the dealership (Monday) and inquired specifically about the situation (professionally of course), this was exact the response I received.


"
******,

I pulled BMW’s Service History report for the M2 and have attached a copy for your reference. If any repairs were done by the factory, they would have been indicated there. I have no records of work done here either. I think this was an ordered car, so it probably wasn’t on our premises very long.

I’ve seen paint defects before on new BMW’s, so it’s not unheard of, although it is very rare. Given that it’s been a year since you took delivery, it might be tough to get BMW to address it, but it would be begun through Service at either store if you want to pursue that. However, a fix would generally require sanding down the factory paint and repainting that area of the car, so it’s usually not something I would advise. "


I think it's safe to assume that this didn't occur at the port unless there are individuals here that can indicate otherwise. I honestly hoped this was a factory defect. If it truly unfolds to be something else then this is disheartening.

///M

Quote:
Originally Posted by Got f1? View Post
Carfax data is not really reliable in this circumstance. The repair facility, Auto Nation or others would need to be participants in the data feed to Carfax. The repairing dealer or shop would have had to be a participant. Also not sure how long it takes from the work being done until posting in Carfax.

Bottom line is there is no question this was repaired post factory. If at dealer, there would have to be a record. If at port, there would be a record at BMW.
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      07-31-2019, 05:10 PM   #12
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I definitely see a difference in the orange peel from the trunk to the suspect area in the first picture. Trunk orange peel looks normal for this car, suspect area does not. Orange peel farther down the quarter panel also looks normal.

In the second picture, I again see factory orange peel on the trunk, and also up on the C-pillar. Again the suspect area has different orange peel.

Given that a proper repaint would have probably involved the entire rear quarter and pillar, I am wondering if the suspect area is from a spot repair, perhaps one of those airbrush repairs. That's the only way I (in my limited experience) would expect to see such a local difference.

I know that occasionally minor paint defects get past the BMW inspectors, but I don't think they could have missed this one, due to both the location and how obvious it is. And I feel the same way about the port. They look cars over very carefully and they are capable of factory-quality paint jobs. If the port did their usual job you would never know. Finally, if this was simply a paint defect, I would expect the orange peel to be unaffected (ie, orange peel around a dirt nib doesn't change, for example). Instead, the variation in orange peel sticks out as a secondary indication something was repaired/changed and it sticks out independent of the underlying defects/damage.
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      07-31-2019, 05:31 PM   #13
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In the morning I'll take another photo of the side as I believe there are additional blemishes (craters of varying size) that are very close to the PPF (PPF can be seen in the photo above). The paint in those areas "appear" consistent with the factory finish (again, not an expert). Here's an example of the crater (not sure what to call it, sorry) but smaller.

//M

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
I definitely see a difference in the orange peel from the trunk to the suspect area in the first picture. Trunk orange peel looks normal for this car, suspect area does not. Orange peel farther down the quarter panel also looks normal.

In the second picture, I again see factory orange peel on the trunk, and also up on the C-pillar. Again the suspect area has different orange peel.

Given that a proper repaint would have probably involved the entire rear quarter and pillar, I am wondering if the suspect area is from a spot repair, perhaps one of those airbrush repairs. That's the only way I (in my limited experience) would expect to see such a local difference.

I know that occasionally minor paint defects get past the BMW inspectors, but I don't think they could have missed this one, due to both the location and how obvious it is. And I feel the same way about the port. They look cars over very carefully and they are capable of factory-quality paint jobs. If the port did their usual job you would never know. Finally, if this was simply a paint defect, I would expect the orange peel to be unaffected (ie, orange peel around a dirt nib doesn't change, for example). Instead, the variation in orange peel sticks out as a secondary indication something was repaired/changed and it sticks out independent of the underlying defects/damage.
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      08-01-2019, 11:28 AM   #14
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Update:

This morning we both arrived at dealership [b] to meet with the BMW representative. My husband provided the attendant the key and we proceeded to meet with the SA. SA requested that we have a seat in the lounge and they'd be with us shortly. 45 minutes later (SA was no where to be found) we see the SA bringing the car around the front of the dealership. The SA comes inside and explains that the representative has deemed the paint a 'factory defect' and they will be repainting the panel. Of course my husband recorded the entire conversation with his micro recorder. We were both running late for the office so we thanked him for his assistance. Our quick exits allows us to group and discuss next steps and provide our questions in writing.

[a] Who is responsible for removing the PPF.
[b] Who is paying for the removal and re-installation of the PPF.
[c] Question for PPF installer. When can PPF be re-applied.
[d] Paint warranty ? Factory or extended ?
[e] Diminished value ?
[f] Reported to Carfax ? Service records.. etc.

I actually feel you guys were on point and BMW was trying to avoid a legal battle (which we were prepared to do). We just want the vehicle 'properly' repaired but we also have to look at the financial aspect. This repair may cause us financial harm in the future if we attempt to sell and or trade.

//M
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      08-01-2019, 11:35 AM   #15
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You could ask BMW for a Diminished Value payment. I don't know if it would fly but it may be worth bringing up.
https://www.thebalance.com/diminishe...cident-2645571
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      08-02-2019, 04:14 PM   #16
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I reached out to our attorney this morning to discuss the situation. Honestly, this is unfamiliar territory for both of us so we're just trying to establish guidelines as to who should be covering expenses (e.g. PPF removal/re-installation) and potential losses. I honestly hate to say this but our SA seems clueless to the process. He provided very little information as to who would be covering expenses. Only that a loaner car would be provided.

Perhaps that's all BMW feels obligated to extend us unless we apply pressure.

Husband did speak with the PPF installer and he indicated we'd have to wait 30 days before he'd re-apply the film.

//M

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You could ask BMW for a Diminished Value payment. I don't know if it would fly but it may be worth bringing up.
https://www.thebalance.com/diminishe...cident-2645571
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      08-02-2019, 06:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Monika View Post
I reached out to our attorney this morning to discuss the situation. Honestly, this is unfamiliar territory for both of us so we're just trying to establish guidelines as to who should be covering expenses (e.g. PPF removal/re-installation) and potential losses. I honestly hate to say this but our SA seems clueless to the process. He provided very little information as to who would be covering expenses. Only that a loaner car would be provided.

Perhaps that's all BMW feels obligated to extend us unless we apply pressure.

Husband did speak with the PPF installer and he indicated we'd have to wait 30 days before he'd re-apply the film.

//M
There are several avenues that you could try. The one thing that is not in your favor for the PPF is the length of time since delivery of the vehicle. They could argue that it should have been repaired before the PPF was installed. Of course it is not that simple, I'm just playing devils advocate.
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      08-03-2019, 08:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Of course my husband recorded the entire conversation with his micro recorder.
Did you tell them you were recording the conversation? If not depending on where you live that could get you into legal trouble. Best to check local laws / restrictions about one-party consent on recording.
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      08-03-2019, 11:40 AM   #19
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You are correct, however we never noticed the defect until it was pointed out by our PPF installer. It could then be argued that the PPF installer shouldn't have placed film below the area in question without bringing it to our attention. However in speaking with him, he never noticed it. Car was on a lift when he applied the film in that area. Only after he inspected his work was it discovered.

I'm going to reach out to the installer today to get a quote for removal. Installation (at the time) was 300 per side. Also thinking we'll have the bumper and doors done at the time he re-applies that side.

///M

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There are several avenues that you could try. The one thing that is not in your favor for the PPF is the length of time since delivery of the vehicle. They could argue that it should have been repaired before the PPF was installed. Of course it is not that simple, I'm just playing devils advocate.
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      08-03-2019, 11:47 AM   #20
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No, we didn't disclose our intent to record the conversation. Our attorney recommended we record the conversation and indicated it was legal in our state.

///M

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Originally Posted by orangeglim View Post
Did you tell them you were recording the conversation? If not depending on where you live that could get you into legal trouble. Best to check local laws / restrictions about one-party consent on recording.
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      08-03-2019, 08:16 PM   #21
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Just repaint and enjoy the car.
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      08-04-2019, 01:34 AM   #22
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x2 dont worry about the paint so much
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