[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by DanG

Not sure why so many people call a DCT an automatic. It is definitely different than the ZF8 BMW uses in most BMWs.

It is an electronic assisted stick that can be put in an automatic mode.

hmmm...no

[Dylanm240]

I love DCT but I wouldn't try to claim it is a manual transmission. It is just the best style of automatic transmission because it it is so versatile and gives the option to drive it like a manual or a traditional automatic.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by Dylanm240

I love DCT but I wouldn't try to claim it is a manual transmission. It is just the best style of automatic transmission because it it is so versatile and gives the option to drive it like a manual or a traditional automatic.

It's absolutely closer to a manual than an automatic in mechanical operation.

A traditional automatic has a torque converter, planetary gear sets, and a hydraulic system of valves to squeeze bands to effect gear ratio changes.

A traditional manual uses a spring loaded clutch plate, and 2 shafts with gears and synchros with forks activated by levers to join different gears to effect gear ratio changes.

The M-DCT uses a dual interleaved clutch, and extra shafts such that the next gear can be pre-staged. I assume it uses hydraulic valves to slide the forks to change gears.

Both the ZF-8 and the M-DCT rely heavily on SW programming for fast smooth operation. Both are extremely fast shifting but you can feel the torque converter smoothing out the torque change, such as comparing a U to a V.

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

It's absolutely closer to a manual than an automatic in mechanical operation.

[Dylanm240]

Close but not a manual. Does it have a clutch? No? Okay then.

[DanG]

Originally Posted by Dylanm240

Close but not a manual. Does it have a clutch? No? Okay then.

Actually it has two clutches.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Dylanm240

Close but not a manual. Does it have a clutch? No? Okay then.

The clue is in the name, dual clutch transmission

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by Dylanm240

Close but not a manual. Does it have a clutch? No? Okay then.

As stated above it has 2 clutches! You just don't see the clutch pedal. In fact a guy named BorgWarner hides under the hood and presses the clutch pedal in every time you hit a paddle.

See https://m5carblog.blogspot.com/2013/...nsmission.html for a detailed description.

[Dylanm240]

Originally Posted by DanG

Actually it has two clutches.

lol got me there

[ESB]

I drive MT because I enjoy it 🤷*♂️

My friend's DCT is on a boat. I can't wait to try it out eventually.

I'm sure both are tons of fun. No wrong choice really.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

It's absolutely closer to a manual than an automatic in mechanical operation.

A traditional automatic has a torque converter, planetary gear sets, and a hydraulic system of valves to squeeze bands to effect gear ratio changes.

A traditional manual uses a spring loaded clutch plate, and 2 shafts with gears and synchros with forks activated by levers to join different gears to effect gear ratio changes.

The M-DCT uses a dual interleaved clutch, and extra shafts such that the next gear can be pre-staged. I assume it uses hydraulic valves to slide the forks to change gears.

Both the ZF-8 and the M-DCT rely heavily on SW programming for fast smooth operation. Both are extremely fast shifting but you can feel the torque converter smoothing out the torque change, such as comparing a U to a V.

I see no lies, this is all factually correct.

But also, a traditional manual has to be shifted manually. A traditional automatic can shift gears automatically, just like a DCT. I'd argue that "manual" and "automatic" imply that these transmissions are operated in a specific way, rather than that they function in a specific manner.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Moflow

I see no lies, this is all factually correct.

But also, a traditional manual has to be shifted manually. A traditional automatic can shift gears automatically, just like a DCT. I'd argue that "manual" and "automatic" imply that these transmissions are operated in a specific way, rather than that they function in a specific manner.

Some of these people would fail Engineering 101 type courses. A requirement defines WHAT something does. Design specifications define HOW it does it.

What makes an automatic transmission automatic is the requirement that it shall be able to shift by itself. How it does that is of no consequence.

Engineers spec a transmission by requirements like:

The transmission shall be able to shift automatically.
The transmission shall be able to complete an upshift in xxx ms.
The transmission shall be able to complete a downshift in xxx ms.
The transmission shall have a manual mode.
The transmission shall have n gears with the following ratios...

etc...

HOW those requirements are met are purely details. I could design and sell BMW a Triple Gnome Transmission - M TGT. It could shift even faster than DCT. It might even have gnome-operated clutches inside, but who cares? It's still an automatic.

If you treat the transmissions as black boxes, it's completely clear to anyone with basic reasoning skills that DCT and automatic transmissions are functionally equivalent in terms of user requirements. The DCT is just a higher performance version. If BMW and Getrag never told anyone how it operated internally, every review would praise "the automatic transmission" and it would make no difference to the user.

This isn't DCT bashing, it's just fact. DCT is better than the manual except to those who have a fondness for such an anachronism.

[Brandt51]

Originally Posted by chris719

Some of these people would fail Engineering 101 type courses. A requirement defines WHAT something does. Design specifications define HOW it does it.

What makes an automatic transmission automatic is the requirement that it shall be able to shift by itself. How it does that is of no consequence.

Engineers spec a transmission by requirements like:

The transmission shall be able to shift automatically.
The transmission shall be able to complete an upshift in xxx ms.
The transmission shall be able to complete a downshift in xxx ms.
The transmission shall have a manual mode.
The transmission shall have n gears with the following ratios...

etc...

HOW those requirements are met are purely details. I could design and sell BMW a Triple Gnome Transmission - M TGT. It could shift even faster than DCT. It might even have gnome-operated clutches inside, but who cares? It's still an automatic.

If you treat the transmissions as black boxes, it's completely clear to anyone with basic reasoning skills that DCT and automatic transmissions are functionally equivalent in terms of user requirements. The DCT is just a higher performance version.

This isn't DCT bashing, it's just fact. DCT is better than the manual.

Yeah, but the DCT is an manual that just has an automatic function...

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Brandt51

Yeah, but the DCT is an manual that just has an automatic function...

Any gearbox that can shift through all gears by itself is an automatic transmission. I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, lol. No offense, I just don't want to look dense if you are being sarcastic.

I just truly don't understand why people insist on defining a transmission by what's under the covers and not how it functions. I know torque converters gave automatics a stigma, but we should be past that.

I would say that if I made a robotic attachment that shifted a 6MT and actuated the clutch to shift for you, it would convert a manual to an automatic.

DCT can't shift without electricity and a MCU running at least 10k lines of code. Hard to argue it's manual...

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by chris719

This isn't DCT bashing, it's just fact. DCT is better than the manual except to those who have a fondness for such an anachronism.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by Dylanm240

I love DCT but I wouldn't try to claim it is a manual transmission. It is just the best style of automatic transmission because it it is so versatile and gives the option to drive it like a manual or a traditional automatic.

Hey, it's 2021, keep an open mind; a DCT can be born a automatic but still identify as a manual tranny, without judgement or apparently any logic

J/K guys...

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Brandt51

Yeah, but the DCT is an manual that just has an automatic function...

How is it "manual" if you put it in "D" and go until you turn the car off???

What is "manual" in there, from the user perspective?

[Davil]

Originally Posted by DFW_M2C

How is it "manual" if you put it in "D" and go until you turn the car off???

What is "manual" in there, from the user perspective?

How do you "put it D"? So you've never driven one. Thanks for your input.

[f87tre]

Originally Posted by DrDetroit67

I's a long time die hard manual guy and ordered a M2C 6MT site unseen subject to a test drive, only able to do a DCT test drive and figured it would give me a read on the car in general....BUT I have to say I was astounded at how engaging a driving exprirence it was. Don't get me wrong, I am still thrilled I ordered the 6MT, a large part of my own driving pleasure in a car like this is rowing through the gears. All that verbal diarrhea to say, that IMHO, if you are on the fence, don't think you won't have fun with the DCT, it still totally brought out my inner old man hooligan which I was surprised at

100% agree. Last car was a manual and, while I do miss it at times, the DCT is incredibly engaging when you want it to be and perfectly civilized during normal driving

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Davil

How do you "put it D"? So you've never driven one. Thanks for your input.

I’ve had the 335is with DCT and that and M340i (8ZF) experience were forgotten quickly and will not be missed.
You’re welcome

[///MCollection]

I don't like manual as traffic doesn't flow anymore but I get that people like the involvement and that's fine each to there own.

An automatic is in my mind different from a clutchless manual and is a completely different drive. My f85 is an automatic and the m2 a dct. Each has pro's and cons. What I love about dct is I have 3 choices, full auto for when I'm stuck behind doodling chumps, stick sequential for when I get the wheel crossed over and am confused or paddles for Xbox mode.

I chose a dct for this reason and am glad I did. I understand the people who choose manual as they do have that raw control and that's great but people should not knock dct until they try it and vice versa (unusual as most have driven a manual). Dct should not be compared to earlier ssg or smg as they were shocking but a vital step in bmw getting it right.

We used to boil water over a flame now we have kettles, progress is mostly a good thing and I'd rather the car took the load so in stop start traffic I don't have to bother. But if someone wants to go get a pan and boil some water that's there choice and not something I would chastise.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by KevinC

I'm in that group! I'll get manuals until they are unavailable.