BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 Competition Model > Considering an M2C... have a few questions

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-30-2020, 09:54 PM   #89
Poochie
Luxury at the redline :)
Poochie's Avatar
United_States
9099
Rep
7,563
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
Good sir,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Within any group, it's necessary to signal your standing and status. Amongst film enthusiasts, you have to talk endlessly of Scorsese's brilliance and pooh-pooh the poor benighted fools who love comic book movies. The folks who are "in the know" in the world of poetry laugh at Billy Collins, while extolling the virtues of "experimental" poetry. Want street cred in the rationalist community? It's a given that we live in a simulation, and it's also a given that Roko's Basilisk is coming to get us, unless we end up devoting 90% of GDP to regulating A.I.

I've discovered that in the car enthusiast community, there are certain sacred cows. 4-cylinder engine = horrible, while naturally-aspirated = all that is good and holy and wonderful in this world is one of those.

When I test drove the 981, I hated it. As a daily driver, it evinced as much power and excitement as my 1981 Corolla hatchback. It had zero low-end torque. Always felt like a Toyota Sienna could get off the line faster. I then test drove the 718 Cayman, and relative to the 981, it rocked! Lots of low end torque, felt fast, sounded wonderful to my ears.

But, then again, I came to this whole performance car thing with zero pre-conceived notions. Had never driven a performance car of any sort. Had no idea what a turbo was or what the hell the difference is between 4, 6, 8, or 12 cylinders. No idea. All I knew was that for my use case as a daily driver, the 718 kicked ass, while the 981 felt slow and lifeless.

Now, I get it: If your use case is the track, then I totally understand how you might prefer the 981 to the 718 - you'll spend all your time at 7000 RPM, you'll have plenty of torque, etc., etc. But, as a daily driver? Kinda sucks.

But, from a signaling perspective, the 981 checks all the right boxes: You get to signal that you've got this amazing 6-cylinder engine that lives to be tracked and that you're obviously the second coming of Senna.

The only issue with signaling is that it can eventually leave you far behind the curve. Here's an example: Did you know that Blitzkrieg was actually a strategy developed by the British in 1917??? Unfortunately, the folks who were "in the know" in Britain, back then, all had their standing and status tied up in horses. I s*** you not. Horses. The top commanders were those in the cavalry. So, they pooh-poohed modern, mechanized warfare. Meanwhile, the Germans came at it without any pre-conceived notions (they'd already lost WWI, so they didn't have any sacred cows), and eagerly adopted the new technology / philosophy.

Good news is that if you don't care about sacred cows, you can use others' desire to signal status as an incredible arbitrage opportunity. 718 Cayman GTS can be had for amazing discounts at the moment, given that the GTS 4.0 is on the way.
Jezz, all that to say one Porsche drivers better than the other, I would of hate hear your thoughts on geopolitics.

I'll keep it succinct and just say that I don't care if Jesus is behind the wheel, there is no way, pound for pound, a tapped-out, high-reviving 4 cylinder, can match the sooth silky power and feel of a strait six's headroom.

Maybe the S2000 of its day or 718 pulled it off with grace - until a modern 6 rolls around and eats them up for breakfast.
Appreciate 1
cptobvious2531.50
      05-30-2020, 10:25 PM   #90
KevinM
Brigadier General
KevinM's Avatar
2931
Rep
3,285
Posts

Drives: 2002 M5;2007 M Coupe;2020 M2C
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tucson

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 M2 Competition  [10.00]
2007 E86 M coupe  [8.38]
2002 E39 M5  [9.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
It had zero low-end torque.
Great post. It reminds me of my extensive drives in the E60 M5. I really wanted to love it. I really wanted to buy it. NA V-10. At 8000 RPM I was completely and absolutely enthralled. Unfortunately, at these times I was also driving like an asshole and at risk for a ticket or worse. Below 6000K? Not much there compared to my DD at the time, my E39 M5. So I kept the E39, which is one of the best decisions I have made. I still have great respect for S85 engine of course, but for me it was not great as a DD.
__________________
2020 F87 M2C Hockenheim Silver/MT
2002 E39 M5 Sterling Gray/Caramel
2007 E86 Z4M Coupe Silver Gray/Black
2021 Kia Telluride (hauler)
Appreciate 1
cptobvious2531.50
      05-31-2020, 10:54 AM   #91
cptobvious
Captain
cptobvious's Avatar
United_States
2532
Rep
825
Posts

Drives: M2C HS DCT
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Jezz, all that to say one Porsche drivers better than the other, I would of hate hear your thoughts on geopolitics.

I'll keep it succinct and just say that I don't care if Jesus is behind the wheel, there is no way, pound for pound, a tapped-out, high-reviving 4 cylinder, can match the sooth silky power and feel of a strait six's headroom.

Maybe the S2000 of its day or 718 pulled it off with grace - until a modern 6 rolls around and eats them up for breakfast.
Ha! Yeah, my wife and I have this joke that she'll ask me if I want chicken for dinner, and to answer her I'll launch into a discussion of recent experiments in general relativity, then cover the history of the comics code authority in the U.S. and how it stymied the art form for half a century, followed by a survey of the finer points of the empirical case evidence on UBI and how it should inform the debate... and 40 minutes later, the answer is, "Yeah, chicken would be great."

So, yeah, I guess "long-winded" is a bit of an understatement and I should own up to it!
Appreciate 1
Poochie9099.00
      05-31-2020, 11:38 AM   #92
///AVM
Banned
United_States
2528
Rep
1,908
Posts

Drives: G80 M3C
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: U.S.A.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Jezz, all that to say one Porsche drivers better than the other, I would of hate hear your thoughts on geopolitics.

I'll keep it succinct and just say that I don't care if Jesus is behind the wheel, there is no way, pound for pound, a tapped-out, high-reviving 4 cylinder, can match the sooth silky power and feel of a strait six's headroom.

Maybe the S2000 of its day or 718 pulled it off with grace - until a modern 6 rolls around and eats them up for breakfast.
Ha! Yeah, my wife and I have this joke that she'll ask me if I want chicken for dinner, and to answer her I'll launch into a discussion of recent experiments in general relativity, then cover the history of the comics code authority in the U.S. and how it stymied the art form for half a century, followed by a survey of the finer points of the empirical case evidence on UBI and how it should inform the debate... and 40 minutes later, the answer is, "Yeah, chicken would be great."

So, yeah, I guess "long-winded" is a bit of an understatement and I should own up to it!
Captain

The sweet spot between 'short & sweet' and 'long & thorough' can be tough to land on when compiling forum posts . . . more often than not, I too find myself landing on the verbose side.

Poochie is really good at short & sweet, so I was not surprised by his feedback 🤣 Still, I know he appreciates your commentary, as do I in both your regards.

///AVM
Appreciate 3
cptobvious2531.50
Montaver2066.50
Poochie9099.00
      05-31-2020, 01:05 PM   #93
cptobvious
Captain
cptobvious's Avatar
United_States
2532
Rep
825
Posts

Drives: M2C HS DCT
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Captain

The sweet spot between 'short & sweet' and 'long & thorough' can be tough to land on when compiling forum posts . . . more often than not, I too find myself landing on the verbose side.

Poochie is really good at short & sweet, so I was not surprised by his feedback 🤣 Still, I know he appreciates your commentary, as do I in both your regards.

///AVM

Ha! Thanks, dude!

You know, at the risk of out-typing my welcome, I do have to say that I've given WAY TOO MUCH THOUGHT to the 718 Cayman, and Porsche's conundrum with regard to the car - partially, because I'm planning to buy one, and partially because I do a lot of work with companies on product positioning.

I don't envy the Product Manager in charge of the Cayman. He's gotta have one of the toughest jobs in the automotive world.

1. When the Boxster was introduced in 1996, for the CEO, it was primarily a testing ground for his thesis that he could turn Porsche into a Lean Manufacturing powerhouse. And his assertion was that if he could do so, he could turn this company that was always on the brink of bankruptcy into a financial powerhouse. He proved out his thesis wonderfully, and once he demonstrated success with Lean on the Boxster, he implemented Lean Manufacturing throughout the company, and as a result, Porsche became the highest margin auto manufacturer on the planet

2. At the time, the Boxster / Cayman made sense in the lineup, as the only other model Porsche was selling was effectively the 911. So, there was room for a lower-priced sports car in their product portfolio. The idea was to entice the average punter into the Porsche brand with a lower cost model, and over time those customers would migrate up to the 911, when they eventually could afford the 911. All those folks who lusted after the Porsche brand could get access to it with this "lower tier" model

3. Now, time warp to 2020. Today, if you lust after the Porsche brand, but don't have money for the 911, you can choose from the Macan, the Cayenne, and the Cayman / Boxster. There's a segment of the market that really just wants access to the Porsche crest, and so the introduction of the Macan and the Cayenne has siphoned off those customers from the Cayman / Boxster

4. Next, real incomes, particularly for the relatively well-to-do have effectively doubled between 1996 and 2020. So, in real terms, if you adjust for real income growth, the price of a Cayman / Boxster has fallen dramatically for that well-to-do customer segment. Therefore, when it comes to "positional goods," the Cayman / Boxster has lost a great deal of its allure, precisely because it's TOO affordable now! So, now, the Cayman / Boxster loses out another set of customers - those who are buying a car as a "positional good" as their primary decision criteria

5. Finally, that really only leaves the "enthusiast" community as the real target market for the Cayman / Boxster. And, as stated in my earlier novel-length post, the enthusiast community has its sacred cows. And in order to maintain status and standing in the enthusiast community, you have to: 1) Only ever purchase 6MT and claim that anyone buying PDK is as evil as Goebbels, 2) Constantly crap on forced induction, and 3) Decry 4-cylinder anything. So, the 718 loses this customer segment too

So, yes, the 718 Cayman was a total flop... amongst the enthusiast community. But, even if Porsche had equipped the 718 Cayman with a NA-V12, the Cayman in 2020 was ALWAYS going to be flop in the broader market, because a) Customers could now access the brand via the Macan and the Cayenne, and b) It had already lost its allure as a positional good.

Porsche product management is pretty savvy. I'm sure that the Product Manager in charge of the Cayman knew all this years and years and years ago. As a result, when reviewing the overall product portfolio, I'm sure that Porsche would have made the strategic decision to place the Cayman in the "harvest" category in the infamous BCG 2x2 product matrix, which would mean cut costs and focus on margin, don't invest whatsoever, and simply "harvest" as much cash flow as you can from this dying brand / model - hence the decision to go to a 4-banger, even knowing that it would alienate the enthusiast community.

Next step after that to harvest more cash? Re-introduce an NA-6, but only at the very top end. Use this "price discrimination" tactic to generate outrageous margins. Whereas in the 981, you could have an NA-6 for $50-something-thousand base MSRP, now, to get access to the NA-6 in the GTS 4.0, you're gonna need to pony up ~$90k base MSRP. You FORCE the die-hard enthusiast who believes in the NA-6 sacred cow with all his heart to really put his money where his mouth is with this tactic!

It's brilliant. It's exactly what I would do.

Me? I'm buying the turbo-4!!!
Appreciate 3
BigKutta3870.50
///AVM2528.00
BlkSVT388.50
      05-31-2020, 01:57 PM   #94
BigKutta
Brigadier General
BigKutta's Avatar
United_States
3871
Rep
4,040
Posts

Drives: 2020 M2C, 2019 330xi, 2017 Q7
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Washington DC Burbs

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2019 330xi  [0.00]
2017 Audi Q7 3.0  [0.00]
2020 M2C  [0.00]
Well said Captain!

Can we say the same about the M2 in the BMW lineup? 1) There to entice customer into the M brand, and/or 2) to give the die hard enthusiasts what they want?

write-up awaited...
Appreciate 1
cptobvious2531.50
      05-31-2020, 02:02 PM   #95
///AVM
Banned
United_States
2528
Rep
1,908
Posts

Drives: G80 M3C
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: U.S.A.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
. . . You know, at the risk of out-typing my welcome, I do have to say that I've given WAY TOO MUCH THOUGHT to the 718 Cayman, and Porsche's conundrum with regard to the car - partially, because I'm planning to buy one, and partially because I do a lot of work with companies on product positioning. . . Me? I'm buying the turbo-4!!!
Captain

Wow again!

I have never even taken Business 101, so you are talking way outside my paygrade.

What I can say is that I am one of those ‘enthusiasts’ you reference; one who had his pick among the Porsche lineup . . . at least models that are not track-intended supercars labeled GT2/3 for $200K+. Price aside, not what I need in my life . . . nor many for that matter.

Anyway, I got EXACTLY the one I wanted; by far the best car I have ever owned and gets better every single day.

As I stated before, I was a MT fanboy before PDK manual mode came into my life. I am still a fan of the NAF6 but – at least with the 981 GTS and GT4 - not at the cost of performance the 718 chassis and its T4 has to offer. Simply AMAZING!

Yes, I carry an open mind to the 718 CGST 4.0 and GT4 once available in PDK . . . said to be coming, but not anytime soon.

As this pertains to the M2C . . . I am absolutely digging mine so far. It is a kick-ass car that is a blast to drive. I do believe it is a truly special ///M car, and I am happy as hell I made the purchase. . . but it is simply too big to compete with the 718 CGTS chassis and its T4 when it comes to experiencing sport car performance.

Up to the individual to decide if one is better for THEM. For ME, I was not after ‘better’ or ‘comparable’ with the M2C. I was after different and special in its own right, and the M2C delivers on every penny spent.

///AVM

Last edited by ///AVM; 05-31-2020 at 06:46 PM..
Appreciate 1
cptobvious2531.50
      05-31-2020, 02:32 PM   #96
///AVM
Banned
United_States
2528
Rep
1,908
Posts

Drives: G80 M3C
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: U.S.A.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKutta View Post
Well said Captain!

Can we say the same about the M2 in the BMW lineup? 1) There to entice customer into the M brand, and/or 2) to give the die hard enthusiasts what they want?

write-up awaited...
Kutta

Good question . . . I will let you and Captain share thoughts on the matter.

What I do often wonder - and I think is related to the topic being discussed - is why turbo vs NA is so hotly contested when it comes to Porsche models . . . but I do not recall ever seeing a single person on this subforum take exception to the M2C – or any ///M car – because it does not possess a naturally NA engine.

Perhaps I have missed the conversations? Regardless why are NA engines so important to enthusiasts when it comes to Porsche, but not BMW? Because BMW cannot produce a NA engine as well as Porsche? Nah, I do not think so.

Probably for the same reason I had my own choice and the T4 was hands down a superior engine in the 718, and as compared to the NAF6 in the 981 variants. . . verdict still out for me on the 718 GTS 4.0 and GT4, and until available in PDK.

Before anyone asks why I do not like the 911 offerings . . . I do like them. I like them a lot! Just not as much as the 718 chassis.

///AVM
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2020, 02:35 PM   #97
bri1042
Brigadier General
bri1042's Avatar
5753
Rep
3,247
Posts

Drives: 2021 IOMG M3 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (0)

"4. Next, real incomes, particularly for the relatively well-to-do have effectively doubled between 1996 and 2020. So, in real terms, if you adjust for real income growth, the price of a Cayman / Boxster has fallen dramatically for that well-to-do customer segment. Therefore, when it comes to "positional goods," the Cayman / Boxster has lost a great deal of its allure, precisely because it's TOO affordable now! So, now, the Cayman / Boxster loses out another set of customers - those who are buying a car as a "positional good" as their primary decision criteria"

I respect everything that our fine Captain has said and I'm just curious on a missing data point. Real income for most of the top 20% has not even remotely doubled. So CO must not be talking about the top 20%. Were you referring to just the top 10%? Top 5%? A lot of people here are probably in the top 10%, but I doubt that many of us are in the top 5% (which I think is north of 300k for a household now without location taken into account).

Again, just curious where you were drawing your well-to-do line here.
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2020, 02:41 PM   #98
bubsterino
Banned
171
Rep
436
Posts

Drives: none
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: United States

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKutta View Post
Well said Captain!

Can we say the same about the M2 in the BMW lineup? 1) There to entice customer into the M brand, and/or 2) to give the die hard enthusiasts what they want?

write-up awaited...
Kutta

Good question . . . I will let you and Captain share thoughts on the matter.

What I do often wonder - and I think is related to the topic being discussed - is why turbo vs NA is so hotly contested when it comes to Porsche models . . . but I do not recall ever seeing a single person on this subforum take exception to the M2C – or any ///M car – because it does not possess a naturally NA engine.

Perhaps I have missed the conversations? Regardless why are NA engines so important to enthusiasts when it comes to Porsche, but not BMW? Because BMW cannot produce a NA engine as well as Porsche? Nah, I do not think so.

Probably for the same reason I had my own choice and the T4 was hands down a superior engine in the 718, and as compared to the NAF6 in the 981 variants. . . verdict still out for me on the 718 GTS 4.0 and GT4, and until available in PDK.

Before anyone asks why I do not like the 911 offerings . . . I do like them. I like them a lot! Just not as much as the 718 chassis.

///AVM
it always comes up when people talk about the sound of the car...
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2020, 02:45 PM   #99
Gizmo 335i
Captain
United_States
362
Rep
613
Posts

Drives: 2021 M2C BSM, 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: FL

iTrader: (5)

Never meet your heroes”, or something like that. Unfortunately I turned 50 before I could afford a Porsche and by then it was too late. They are too hard to get in and out and I’m not even big (6 ft, 165 lbs). The air-cooleds have a cult following but they are just too primitive to drive, even god’s own chariot the 993. The offset pedals make them worse. The 991 is very comfortable when inside but I can see me getting tired of the ingress/egress. Would be great if I could have wound the clock back ten years. The cayman is even worse. It is not only impossible to get in and out if but it is cramped when inside. It also comes with an exceedingly, irritatingly high clutch engagement point; along with offset pedals just to get on my last nerve. These are so universally loved but it was the most disappointing ever. The beloved S2000 is a close second on my list of most disappointing drives.

Enter the M2/C. Perfect size. Easy ingress and egress. Manual tranny. Fun, fun, fun handling and power. I think it was designed just for me. I don’t need the Porsche signal. An entry level BMW is more than enough for me.

Love the open-minded conversations. Who says rational discourse is dead!?!
Appreciate 1
cptobvious2531.50
      05-31-2020, 02:50 PM   #100
cptobvious
Captain
cptobvious's Avatar
United_States
2532
Rep
825
Posts

Drives: M2C HS DCT
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKutta View Post
Well said Captain!

Can we say the same about the M2 in the BMW lineup? 1) There to entice customer into the M brand, and/or 2) to give the die hard enthusiasts what they want?

write-up awaited...

Ha! Okay... be careful what you ask for... by the way, it's 12:30pm here, and I'm already drunk, so hence the write-up.

I think BMW is in a really, really, really tough position. Mercedes, BMW, and Audi are, to put it delicately, F***ed. They're much more constrained in what they can do, and how to try to attract customers, etc., compared to Porsche. More than anything else, I would argue that given their constraints, their over-arching strategy at the moment is what we would call "grasping at straws."

1. These 3 manufacturers have MASSIVE fixed costs, with very little flexibility in their operations. They're far, far, far, far behind the likes of Porsche, when it comes to Lean Manufacturing. Which means everything about their ability to respond to changes in the market, sync'ing supply with demand fluctuations, providing features to customers at high margins, etc., etc., is highly constrained. In the past, they've simply relied on continued market share to cover their fixed costs and earn relatively good margins

2. Enter Tesla. Tesla, in the overall scheme of things, sells a tiny number of cars. They only sold ~300k Model 3's in 2019, meanwhile, BMW sold ~2.5M, Audi sold ~1.8M, and Mercedes sold ~2.4M units. And yet, given the logic of fixed cost allocation, every single car Tesla siphons off from the Big 3 Germans results in one fewer unit for the Germans to allocate those fixed costs to. So, even though Tesla only sold ~300k Model 3's in 2019, those sales disproportionately stole sales from the Big 3 German auto makers, and the Big 3 Germans' margins plummeted. If / when Tesla continues to grow Model 3 sales, Tesla single-handedly could put the Big 3 in major financial jeopardy, due to the inexorable logic of fixed cost allocation

3. So, what do you do if you're BMW and you know this? You do everything in your power to maintain # of units sold in order to leverage that same old fixed cost allocation. However, you've got inflexible manufacturing processes, you've got unionized work forces, you've got ancient contracts with suppliers, you've got a turgid culture, etc., etc. So, what's the least bad thing you can do? You try to maintain # of units sold by slicing and dicing your offerings into thinner and thinner and more and more specialized segments. You try to leverage your existing platforms, your existing technologies, by putting lipstick on the pig, and then going to the market and saying, "Hey, we're offering you something new and truly innovative!" Hope that customers buy your BS, and purchase those vehicles, when in reality, all you did was change a few existing bits and bobs here and there and slap a new model number on the thing. So, once upon a time, you had a 3-Series, a 5-Series, and a 7-Series. You do your slicing and dicing, and next thing you know, you've introduced a 1-series, a 2-series, a 4-series, an 8-series, etc., etc., etc. Take the 2-series GC, for example. Is that truly new and innovative? No! It's a re-purposed Mini.

4. BMW, Audi, and Mercedes are all doing variations on this theme. It's the only real thing they can do, given their constraints. Unfortunately, the more you slice and dice, the lower your overall margins, because it does cost you money to put lipstick on the pig. So, even then, best case scenario you maintain # of units sold, but your margins continue to fall, albeit at a slower rate. Worst case scenario, you launch something like the 8-Series, and it just sits on dealer lots, so both your # of units and your margins fall in tandem precipitously!

5. Inevitably, someone says, "Well, why don't these guys just be innovative and do what Tesla is doing?" Well, that would be like your mom saying to you, "Why can't you just be like your brother?" You are who you are. You are constrained by who you are and by your situation and by reality. Even if you wanted to be your brother, you can't magically transform. Same with BMW, Mercedes, and Audi

6. So... after 40 minutes of long-winded meandering, "Yes, chicken would be awesome for dinner." BMW is trying to slice and dice and throw random S*** at the wall and seeing what sticks so that they can maintain # of units sold. And sometimes, throwing random S*** at the wall results in the 8-Series and it just sits on the dealer lots. Other times, you throw random S*** at the wall, and it results in the M2, and EVERY single reviewer comes out of the woodwork to extol the car's virtues and claim that it's the best M-car on sale today, and a future classic, and it becomes the highest selling model in the M lineup

I'm sure if you talk to higher ups at BMW, they'd tell you all about their scientific market testing and how they'd planned the M2's success every step of the way, given their absolute genius. And I'm sure somebody would tell you all about how they've perfectly positioned it relative to M3/M4, etc., etc., and there's a master plan to upsell, etc., etc. And it'd all be lies. I mean, I'm sure they believe it! I'm sure they've convinced themselves that they're geniuses. But, it's all lies in that epistemologically, it just ain't true, no matter what they say. They were just throwing S*** at the wall. After all, if there were some failure-proof master plan, the 8-Series would be flying off the lots right now, right?
Appreciate 2
BigKutta3870.50
BlkSVT388.50
      05-31-2020, 02:54 PM   #101
///AVM
Banned
United_States
2528
Rep
1,908
Posts

Drives: G80 M3C
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: U.S.A.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubsterino View Post
it always comes up when people talk about the sound of the car...
Bubster

Trust me, I get that, but if we go with that line of reasoning . . . do BMW enthusiasts - many of whom are also Porsche enthusiasts - not care about the sound of ///M cars?

We are getting close to the point of my asking the question in my prior post . . . I will take it to the opposite extreme and state nothing on the road sounds as good to me as the Shelby GT 350, but I have zero interest in owning one.

///AVM
Appreciate 1
      05-31-2020, 02:58 PM   #102
///AVM
Banned
United_States
2528
Rep
1,908
Posts

Drives: G80 M3C
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: U.S.A.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
So... after 40 minutes of long-winded meandering, "Yes, chicken would be awesome for dinner." BMW is trying to slice and dice and throw random S*** at the wall and seeing what sticks so that they can maintain # of units sold. And sometimes, throwing random S*** at the wall results in the 8-Series and it just sits on the dealer lots. Other times, you throw random S*** at the wall, and it results in the M2, and EVERY single reviewer comes out of the woodwork to extol the car's virtues and claim that it's the best M-car on sale today, and a future classic, and it becomes the highest selling model in the M lineup
Appreciate 1
cptobvious2531.50
      05-31-2020, 03:05 PM   #103
cptobvious
Captain
cptobvious's Avatar
United_States
2532
Rep
825
Posts

Drives: M2C HS DCT
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bri1042 View Post
"4. Next, real incomes, particularly for the relatively well-to-do have effectively doubled between 1996 and 2020. So, in real terms, if you adjust for real income growth, the price of a Cayman / Boxster has fallen dramatically for that well-to-do customer segment. Therefore, when it comes to "positional goods," the Cayman / Boxster has lost a great deal of its allure, precisely because it's TOO affordable now! So, now, the Cayman / Boxster loses out another set of customers - those who are buying a car as a "positional good" as their primary decision criteria"

I respect everything that our fine Captain has said and I'm just curious on a missing data point. Real income for most of the top 20% has not even remotely doubled. So CO must not be talking about the top 20%. Were you referring to just the top 10%? Top 5%? A lot of people here are probably in the top 10%, but I doubt that many of us are in the top 5% (which I think is north of 300k for a household now without location taken into account).

Again, just curious where you were drawing your well-to-do line here.

See attached JPEG. That's only counting the top 5%. In the U.S., if you make ~$140k/year, you fall into the top 5% of individual income earners. Top 1% is ~$275k. (There's a difference between individual, household, and family income percentiles.)

https://politicalcalculations.blogsp...-ranking.html#

So, I should be more specific in my posts, but then instead of 8 pages, each post would be 18. Nonetheless, if I google the average household income of the typical Porsche buyer, google says for the 911 it's $310k and for the Boxster (and I'd assume Cayman also) it's $243k. Which would mean that 911 and Cayman buyers typically fall into the top 97.5 and 95 percentiles of household income, respectively. And when looking at the 95th percentile and above of household incomes, these "well-to-do" folks have experienced massive REAL income growth over time.

Now, by the same token, the statistics you always hear about median incomes stagnating since 1973 is just plain wrong. Turns out household composition effects aren't controlled for in those studies. Also, turns out that those studies use a measure of inflation that is flawed. Also, turns out that those studies don't take into account government transfers and benefits!!! I mean, think about it. If median incomes really had stagnated for 50 years, there'd be blood in the streets!!! We'd all be living in Mad Max Beyond the Thunderdome.

But, whatever. Let me finally shut up!
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 1
bri10425752.50
      05-31-2020, 03:13 PM   #104
Poochie
Luxury at the redline :)
Poochie's Avatar
United_States
9099
Rep
7,563
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Jezz, all that to say one Porsche drivers better than the other, I would of hate hear your thoughts on geopolitics.

I'll keep it succinct and just say that I don't care if Jesus is behind the wheel, there is no way, pound for pound, a tapped-out, high-reviving 4 cylinder, can match the sooth silky power and feel of a strait six's headroom.

Maybe the S2000 of its day or 718 pulled it off with grace - until a modern 6 rolls around and eats them up for breakfast.
Ha! Yeah, my wife and I have this joke that she'll ask me if I want chicken for dinner, and to answer her I'll launch into a discussion of recent experiments in general relativity, then cover the history of the comics code authority in the U.S. and how it stymied the art form for half a century, followed by a survey of the finer points of the empirical case evidence on UBI and how it should inform the debate... and 40 minutes later, the answer is, "Yeah, chicken would be great."

So, yeah, I guess "long-winded" is a bit of an understatement and I should own up to it!
No worries Captain, you're good peoples.

I used to be a big nerd also but the instant gratification of the internet and PornHub has shorten my attention span, so now I don't have the tenacity to be that detail.

How's the car, the camouflage painted muffler still holding up?

I remember you where one of the first with an M2C.


Appreciate 1
cptobvious2531.50
      05-31-2020, 03:18 PM   #105
bri1042
Brigadier General
bri1042's Avatar
5753
Rep
3,247
Posts

Drives: 2021 IOMG M3 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
See attached JPEG. That's only counting the top 5%. In the U.S., if you make ~$140k/year, you fall into the top 5% of individual income earners. Top 1% is ~$275k. (There's a difference between individual, household, and family income percentiles.)

https://politicalcalculations.blogsp...-ranking.html#

So, I should be more specific in my posts, but then instead of 8 pages, each post would be 18. Nonetheless, if I google the average household income of the typical Porsche buyer, google says for the 911 it's $310k and for the Boxster (and I'd assume Cayman also) it's $243k. Which would mean that 911 and Cayman buyers typically fall into the top 97.5 and 95 percentiles of household income, respectively. And when looking at the 95th percentile and above of household incomes, these "well-to-do" folks have experienced massive REAL income growth over time.

Now, by the same token, the statistics you always hear about median incomes stagnating since 1973 is just plain wrong. Turns out household composition effects aren't controlled for in those studies. Also, turns out that those studies use a measure of inflation that is flawed. Also, turns out that those studies don't take into account government transfers and benefits!!! I mean, think about it. If median incomes really had stagnated for 50 years, there'd be blood in the streets!!! We'd all be living in Mad Max Beyond the Thunderdome.

But, whatever. Let me finally shut up!
I'll also shut up, but I think we could have a long, fun debate somewhere else. Thanks for the clarification.
Appreciate 1
cptobvious2531.50
      05-31-2020, 03:35 PM   #106
bubsterino
Banned
171
Rep
436
Posts

Drives: none
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: United States

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Jezz, all that to say one Porsche drivers better than the other, I would of hate hear your thoughts on geopolitics.

I'll keep it succinct and just say that I don't care if Jesus is behind the wheel, there is no way, pound for pound, a tapped-out, high-reviving 4 cylinder, can match the sooth silky power and feel of a strait six's headroom.

Maybe the S2000 of its day or 718 pulled it off with grace - until a modern 6 rolls around and eats them up for breakfast.
Ha! Yeah, my wife and I have this joke that she'll ask me if I want chicken for dinner, and to answer her I'll launch into a discussion of recent experiments in general relativity, then cover the history of the comics code authority in the U.S. and how it stymied the art form for half a century, followed by a survey of the finer points of the empirical case evidence on UBI and how it should inform the debate... and 40 minutes later, the answer is, "Yeah, chicken would be great."

So, yeah, I guess "long-winded" is a bit of an understatement and I should own up to it!
No worries Captain, you're good peoples.

I used to be a big nerd also but the instant gratification of the internet and PornHub has shorten my attention span, so now I don't have the tenacity to be that detail.

How's the car, the camouflage painted muffler still holding up?

I remember you where one of the first with an M2C.


what muffler?! 😂
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 1
Poochie9099.00
      05-31-2020, 06:32 PM   #107
JCZ5
Major
JCZ5's Avatar
1483
Rep
1,369
Posts

Drives: BMW X5 (G05)
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

@cptobvious and ///AVM I can listen to your discussions for days!

Can you two please do a podcast together discussing all things cars. About the industry, your thoughts on new models, etc? Just two regular blokes having a chat 😂. I will be your executive producer 😉
__________________
IG: @rise_n_drive
Appreciate 2
cptobvious2531.50
///AVM2528.00
      05-31-2020, 09:54 PM   #108
///AVM
Banned
United_States
2528
Rep
1,908
Posts

Drives: G80 M3C
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: U.S.A.

iTrader: (0)

Bubster

To follow-up on the topic of acoustics. . . if it were so important as, for example, to discard the T4 in favor of the NAF6, then why not go the full distance? I offer you exhibit 1A which, again, stands my acoustic hairs on end . . . but I would not want one.

///AVM

Appreciate 1
      05-31-2020, 10:03 PM   #109
JggyM2
Private First Class
29
Rep
106
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo 335i View Post
Never meet your heroes", or something like that. Unfortunately I turned 50 before I could afford a Porsche and by then it was too late. They are too hard to get in and out and I'm not even big (6 ft, 165 lbs). The air-cooleds have a cult following but they are just too primitive to drive, even god's own chariot the 993. The offset pedals make them worse. The 991 is very comfortable when inside but I can see me getting tired of the ingress/egress. Would be great if I could have wound the clock back ten years. The cayman is even worse. It is not only impossible to get in and out if but it is cramped when inside. It also comes with an exceedingly, irritatingly high clutch engagement point; along with offset pedals just to get on my last nerve. These are so universally loved but it was the most disappointing ever. The beloved S2000 is a close second on my list of most disappointing drives.

Enter the M2/C. Perfect size. Easy ingress and egress. Manual tranny. Fun, fun, fun handling and power. I think it was designed just for me. I don't need the Porsche signal. An entry level BMW is more than enough for me.

Love the open-minded conversations. Who says rational discourse is dead!?!
homey, don't leave out the 997.1 and 997.2 NA and turbos. These badboys may be the next '993'.
__________________
Jig is up!
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:06 PM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST