[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Regarding your comment that I do not favor modern BMWs.

I own the following- 2004 E46 vert, a 2011 1M and a 2013 X1 which was made thru 2015.

So.. if 2013 doesn't count as " any modern BMW " then .. I must inform you that I AM interested in the X3M40 or the X3M.

The X3M40 would be a fine upgrade but I'm thinking that an X3M would be the best option available for me if I'm gonna buy a 3600 lb plus M CAR..

So cross shopping M2 CS/L and X3M? I find that even more hilarious lol. X3M40i already has US curb weight of 4230lbs. We'll see how much an X3M will weigh after potentially even more strict emission laws by the time it gets here.

[dmboone25]

I think my 981 CS weighed just under 3000 pounds - you could really feel the weight of the comparable M cars when I was test driving - and that included the 1M, M3, and M4.

300-500 pounds is an appreciable difference, no matter how you cut it.

But now that I'm used to my F80 with her fat ass, I don't know how much it will matter if I end up in an OG M2 or M2C - they have fat asses too, but are slightly shorter, so, I suppose that affects the entry angle....

[chris719]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

the 1M is tops on what a modern sports car should weigh.... and the current Cayman and Boxster.. even the Corvette... weigh less than the M2

2019 Chevrolet Corvette Weight: 3,298 lbs
2018 Porsche Cayman Base Curb Weight (lbs.): 2943
2018 Nissan 370 Z 3333-3386 lbs



3600lbs is a GT (grand tourer) or muscle car weight.. ... which is what all F8X are. Not a small coupe/sporty car/sportscar weight.


1992 Mazda Miata - 2100 lbs (940

https://mossmiata.com/miata-1992


1998 2250-2350 lbs

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-miata-page-10

2004.. 2500 lbs
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...iata-road-test

Mazda is clearly concerned about weight and has REDUCED weight. BMW is not and has INCREASED weight.

2010 -2542 https://www.vehiclehistory.com/vehic...x-5-miata/2010

2018 - back down to 2300 lbs


So...over a 20 year span... mazda has gone back to basics... I was hoping BMW would make SOME sort of effort to reduce weight.

AFTER all.. they screamed about EFFICENT DYNAMICS when the 1M was made... but what they have done since is the opposite. INEFFICIENT but DYNAMIC.


take a look at the following page which has the weights for many different cars... when it comes to a sport or sporty car.. the BMWs 2 series is heavier than nearly all competitors.

http://autotk.com/weight/nissan/370z/

M2 does not directly compete with the cars you mentioned. Those cars are all two seaters. They compete with the Z4. Further, only a base C7 1LT weighs 3300 lbs, most are closer to 3500 lbs based on what I have seen on the forums. 370Z is an ancient platform, not a very good car, and you are welcome to buy one based on the flawed logic that weight is the single most important factor. Oh and the Nismo is closer to 3500 lbs.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by cntzl

So cross shopping M2 CS/L and X3M? I find that even more hilarious lol. X3M40i already has US curb weight of 4230lbs. We'll see how much an X3M will weigh after potentially even more strict emission laws by the time it gets here.

I'm not cross shopping... I'm changing priorities.

Currently own 2013 X1 m sport daily driver.

Possible replacement. X3M40 or X3M

Currently own 1M sports car.

Possible replacement - none at this time ( previously was M2 or M2 further progress - the OG M2 was past my weight limit to begin with and I was hoping for the M2 further progress to be lighter and not heavier.

I've owned at least one BMW for 25 continuous years, but I'm not going to compromise and buy a GT car ( because that's all they build right now when M2 is 3600 Lbs , no M135 in USA, no Z4 and no 2 series gran coupe ) when I really want a sports car or compact sports sedan.

And indeed . The x3M40 is rather portly to be honest. I'm Not sure there is much hope in thinking that M will apply any weight reduction.. just power adders and appearance items like mirrors and seats ...

more than likely an X3M will add weight ..

[M4 GTS]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Someone check my numbers.

e46 M3 w/SMG -->3,508 lbs
e92 M3 w/DCT -->3,630 lbs
f87 M2C /DCT -->3,655 lbs
f8x M3/M4 /DCT -->3685 lbs

My E46M3 is3,333 LBS With 220LBS driver

[MR.]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

the 1M is tops on what a modern sports car should weigh.... and the current Cayman and Boxster.. even the Corvette... weigh less than the M2

2019 Chevrolet Corvette Weight: 3,298 lbs
2018 Porsche Cayman Base Curb Weight (lbs.): 2943
2018 Nissan 370 Z 3333-3386 lbs



3600lbs is a GT (grand tourer) or muscle car weight.. ... which is what all F8X are. Not a small coupe/sporty car/sportscar weight.


1992 Mazda Miata - 2100 lbs (940

https://mossmiata.com/miata-1992


1998 2250-2350 lbs

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-miata-page-10

2004.. 2500 lbs
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...iata-road-test

Mazda is clearly concerned about weight and has REDUCED weight. BMW is not and has INCREASED weight.

2010 -2542 https://www.vehiclehistory.com/vehic...x-5-miata/2010

2018 - back down to 2300 lbs


So...over a 20 year span... mazda has gone back to basics... I was hoping BMW would make SOME sort of effort to reduce weight.

AFTER all.. they screamed about EFFICENT DYNAMICS when the 1M was made... but what they have done since is the opposite. INEFFICIENT but DYNAMIC.


take a look at the following page which has the weights for many different cars... when it comes to a sport or sporty car.. the BMWs 2 series is heavier than nearly all competitors.

http://autotk.com/weight/nissan/370z/

I fully agree with you on this. It often feels that BMW tries to shadow Porsche, and aims at Audi and Mercedes.

I would really have loved to see BMW being that brand that thinks different. Basing its core values on handling, lightweight and fun, not power and luxury.

I often feel they have slightly lost their marbles when looking back at their heritage of being the brand that often did it slightly different.

Also internally I hear those stories, it is all aimed at making more money and a constant competition against other brands.

Look at Volvo and Polestar, you can say what you want but they are staying pure to their believes and are an example of the future. You can like it or not, but at least you know what you are dealing with and what you can expect.

MR

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by chris719

M2 does not directly compete with the cars you mentioned. Those cars are all two seaters. They compete with the Z4. Further, only a base C7 1LT weighs 3300 lbs, most are closer to 3500 lbs based on what I have seen on the forums. 370Z is an ancient platform, not a very good car, and you are welcome to buy one based on the flawed logic that weight is the single most important factor. Oh and the Nismo is closer to 3500 lbs.

Seriously? you're still trying ? Let's reverse the game.. you name the vehcles you deem are worthy competitors ... you google the curb weight.. and find me the ones that weigh MORE than an M2 Competition and put them in a list so we can review and see exactly who has the CHUBBIEST cars in the category. I'll even give you a freebie and go with 3600 lbs for the M2 using the 6MT and not the porky DCT WEIGHT.. .. because the list is likely trending to zero.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by MR.

I fully agree with you on this. It often feels that BMW tries to shadow Porsche, and aims at Audi and Mercedes.

I would really have loved to see BMW being that brand that thinks different. Basing its core values on handling, lightweight and fun, not power and luxury.

I often feel they have slightly lost their marbles when looking back at their heritage of being the brand that often did it slightly different.

Also internally I hear those stories, it is all aimed at making more money and a constant competition against other brands.

Look at Volvo and Polestar, you can say what you want but they are staying pure to their believes and are an example of the future. You can like it or not, but at least you know what you are dealing with and what you can expect.

MR

I think this is a good comment - you used to be able to get into any BMW and have a reasonable expectation of how the thing would feel and handle. Now? They sell 2er minivans...enough said.

I get the drive for growth and expansion of profits (this is not possible forever, no matter what you do), but they have sacrificed so much of what made them great in order to hit the quarter's numbers. It's a strategy that works in the short term - I am sure there are some new adopters to the brand - but they are also going to lose people like me...who used to never look at any other brand, and now...I do on a regular basis. I have already left once, when I bought into the M performance garbage hook, line, and sinker...hated the car and had to escape to a 981.

What would you say is the best reflection of brand equity now? RWD? Sporty? Handling? Can't say that anymore...and I can't think of descriptive terms that apply across the board anymore. The company has fundamentally changed, and not in a positive way in my opinion.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I think this is a good comment - you used to be able to get into any BMW and have a reasonable expectation of how the thing would feel and handle. Now? They sell 2er minivans...enough said.

I get the drive for growth and expansion of profits (this is not possible forever, no matter what you do), but they have sacrificed so much of what made them great in order to hit the quarter's numbers. It's a strategy that works in the short term - I am sure there are some new adopters to the brand - but they are also going to lose people like me...who used to never look at any other brand, and now...I do on a regular basis. I have already left once, when I bought into the M performance garbage hook, line, and sinker.

What would you say is the best reflection of brand equity now? RWD? Sporty? Handling? Can't say that anymore...and I can't think of descriptive terms that apply across the board anymore. The company has fundamentally changed, and not in a positive way in my opinion.

+1... and I think @MR. nailed it actually.. Luxury and performance are the two main drivers... in that order.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

+1... and I think @MR. nailed it actually.. Luxury and performance are the two main drivers... in that order.

When I was getting into the E46, E92, and E82...I never gave two shits about luxury.

The cars were nice, but they moved me. Regular series cars...not even Ms...have you been in a 320i lately? not the same experience...

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by M4 GTS

My E46M3 is3,333 LBS With 220LBS driver

Manual or SMG?

[MR.]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

When I was getting into the E46, E92, and E82...I never gave two shits about luxury.

The cars were nice, but they moved me. Regular series cars...not even Ms...have you been in a 320i lately? not the same experience...

BMW Ms need to move you... and not just from A to B...

The world of cars is going to change drastically over the coming years.

MR

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

When I was getting into the E46, E92, and E82...I never gave two shits about luxury.

The cars were nice, but they moved me. Regular series cars...not even Ms...have you been in a 320i lately? not the same experience...

true story... I've been shocked at all that the 2010s BMW M car owner feels is important...

"M Mirrors " - regardless If they make Cd worse
"M" seats" - full power seats of course ... with memory !
glossy carbon fiber... because the wet look is where it's at!
leather seats - but suddenly Dakota leather is trash.. where is the Merino
0-60 - gotta be able to beat the others at the Drag strip , plus I can't be bothered with actually learning how to drive a 6MT... so add in DCT!

meanwhile.. the weight keeps getting piled on.. no care.. it's all in the name of making the M2 just like the M4...

[MR.]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

true story... I've been shocked at all that the 2010s BMW M car owner feels is important...

"M Mirrors " - regardless If they make Cd worse
"M" seats" - full power seats of course ... with memory !
glossy carbon fiber... because the wet look is where it's at!
leather seats - but suddenly Dakota leather is trash.. where is the Merino
0-60 - gotta be able to beat the others at the Drag strip , plus I can't be bothered with actually learning how to drive a 6MT... so add in DCT!

meanwhile.. the weight keeps getting piled on.. no care.. it's all in the name of making the M2 just like the M4...

I see your point here, but I have nothing against what you mention as long as it is an option to choose for the customer.

Customers want choice and the brand wants to sell, so I fully agree this is all available. I believe we have to go a step back even further.

No let's remove all that stuff you mention above and look at the vehicle. The basic essence of the product is already wrong before we have even started adding options and accessories.

Look at the current MINI JCW, that thing has so much standard stuff and is so crap balanced that the center of gravity is positioned around your shoulders. It is a freaking MINI, it should rotate underneath my butt not next to my right shoulder.... How on earth can you built such a thing if you are a passionate car maker... Exactly they are not.

In the end it sells because sales & marketing decided we need to aim the new MINI at old ladies and they like soft, comfort and a funky design. The purist are an extra, but not a main customer market.

Every single time I tell this story managers at BMW say there is no real market for purists. I then say... Cayman GT4, 911R, GT3.2 with a manual, GT3 Touring... At that moment it becomes awfully quiet at the other end of the table. And yes this cars you can also stuff full of options, but most of them come without it standard...

MR

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by MR.

In the end it sells because sales & marketing decided we need to aim the new MINI at old ladies and they like soft, comfort and a funky design. The purist are an extra, but not a main customer market.

Every single time I tell this story managers at BMW say there is no real market for purists. I then say... Cayman GT4, 911R, GT3.2 with a manual, GT3 Touring... At that moment it becomes awfully quiet at the other end of the table. And yes this cars you can also stuff full of options, but most of them come without it standard...

MR

As a chapter president.. I used to LOVE to have an North American M brand Manager come and speak to chapter members.. guys like Erik Wensberg, all the way up through matt Russell.. who even posted a few times IN THESE VERY FORUMS.


A long time ago.. they would drop a sly hint or two about upcoming vehicles.. and share some insights..

in the last decade or more however.. these sort of appearances have featured bland commentary from the M brand manager ... no new hints.. and responses similar to the one you asked when asked a question like..

WHERE ARE ALL THE LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIALS?
WHY ARE YOUR CARS GETTING SO HEAVY?
WHY IS (your version of ) THE ELECTRONIC STEERING SO BAD?

They say the same.. " well.. you enthusiasts are different".. and immediately act like what enthusiasts want is somehow NOT good for the brand!


So..now... I refuse to attend any event featuring a BMW " M brand manager " as a guest speaker anymore.


Thanks for your work in attempting to get some responses to questions asked by enthusiasts..

[pz619]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Seriously? you're still trying ? Let's reverse the game.. you name the vehcles you deem are worthy competitors ... you google the curb weight.. and find me the ones that weigh MORE than an M2 Competition and put them in a list so we can review and see exactly who has the CHUBBIEST cars in the category. I'll even give you a freebie and go with 3600 lbs for the M2 using the 6MT and not the porky DCT WEIGHT.. .. because the list is likely trending to zero.

Rs3 is at 3600 lbs too. Do I still win a prize or does a tie get nothing?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by pz619

Rs3 is at 3600 lbs too. Do I still win a prize or does a tie get nothing?

So.. the M2 with RWD is the same as the RS3 which has AWD.

[pz619]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

So.. the M2 with RWD is the same as the RS3 which has AWD.

Haha it came to mind because my roommate from back in the day had a rs4, which isn’t much bigger than a m2, but it weighed 4000 lbs.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by pz619

Haha it came to mind because my roommate from back in the day had a rs4, which isn’t much bigger than a m2, but it weighed 4000 lbs.

And the RS 3 already has a DCT so it really would be less than the M2C- DCT at 3655.

Yikes.

[10"]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

So.. the M2 with RWD is the same as the RS3 which has AWD.

The RS3 also has a glorious 5 cylinder turbo. One of the finest engines around...way more lovely than the S55.

If only they made "RWS" RS3 like they did with the R8—-rear wheel drive! :O

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by 10"

The RS3 also has a glorious 5 cylinder turbo. One of the finest engines around...way more lovely than the S55.

If only they made "RWS" RS3 like they did with the R8—-rear wheel drive! :O

I had an Audi 5 banger once. The engine has a great reputation. I didn't have any trouble with it but I always thought the exhaust sounded a bit strange.

[Fenerbahce]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Seriously? you're still trying ? Let's reverse the game.. you name the vehcles you deem are worthy competitors ... you google the curb weight.. and find me the ones that weigh MORE than an M2 Competition and put them in a list so we can review and see exactly who has the CHUBBIEST cars in the category. I'll even give you a freebie and go with 3600 lbs for the M2 using the 6MT and not the porky DCT WEIGHT.. .. because the list is likely trending to zero.

Please provide your long list of 400+ hp RWD coupes that have back seats and are significantly lighter than the M2C. I must be be looking in the wrong place.

Even the 1M was viewed as heavy when it came out. If you want light, get a Miata.