[BackOnBlack]

Hello All,

I am looking for recommendations for which brand and type of oil to use for my car. Granted, I am asking for a S58, the G8x forums do not yet have sufficient number of drivers tracking their cars, and it appears this forum has.

I do not plan on tracking extensively, probably 3 more events this year, 6-8 days. But it gets quite hot and humid on the east coast during summer months, and I do not understand engines at all. So, I thought I should ask experienced drivers.

Thank you in advance, and sorry for barging into the forum.

[E90convert]

If your engine is stock, just run BMW Genuine. All of the validation and testing was done using this oil. It passed. I eat my own cooking and track my stock engine M2 with BMW Genuine.

Once you start modifying, especially tuning, a lot of that approach goes out the window and I would go to a LL-01 non-FE oil.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

Hello All,

I am looking for recommendations for which brand and type of oil to use for my car. Granted, I am asking for a S58, the G8x forums do not yet have sufficient number of drivers tracking their cars, and it appears this forum has.

I do not plan on tracking extensively, probably 3 more events this year, 6-8 days. But it gets quite hot and humid on the east coast during summer months, and I do not understand engines at all. So, I thought I should ask experienced drivers.

Thank you in advance, and sorry for barging into the forum.

edycol chris719

What's the BMW oil spec for the new engines? Is LL-17 or something? Or is it still backwards compatible with LL01?


Ok my advice is as follows:

1) While underwarranty make sure you keep all your reciepts and use a BMW certified oil that is compatible with your engine. So something like LL01 or whatever the new stuff is. I would also look for a non-FE oil because those prioritize fuel economy over protection.

2) I would do a used oil analysis after a few track days to see how the oil is holding up, and that dictates if you need to switch to a different oil or not.

3) I recommend something like pennzoil platnium euro 5w40, motul xcess gen 2 5w40 (has LL01 certifications in conjunction with MB 229.5, and porsche a40 which are very stringent tests).


4) I disagree with E90, I would never track my car with any type of FE oil. If you want to run a genuine BMW oil then run a non FE, genuine 5w30 bmw LL01 oil. Despite validation being done on 0W30, there's a reason why BMW still offers and specifies non-FE oils, and it's for protection when fuel economy isn't a concern.

BMW only made Fe oils to help pass emissions to sell their cars, just like how subaru had to create horrific tunes for the sti to pass emissions. Clearly it isn't prioritizing protection - which is something you would want for track days. If emissions weren't so stringent I bet FE oils wouldn't exist, and if FE oils provided enough protection then why don't they have more stringest certifications like porsche A40 and MB 229.5, and why do LL01 oils still exist?

Exactly, because FE oils were not made with upmost protection in mind.

[E90convert]

I've actually seen some non-public data in powertrain where a thin FE oil out performed a thicker non-FE oil in a on-highway fleet wear test. This test was conducted to show the benefits of the new FE lubricant, and wear was actually better than the current non-FE lubricant. This lubricant may be used in one of the highest volume vehicle manufacturers on the planet

Just because it's labeled FE doesn't mean it's sacrificing wear protection.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by E90convert

I've actually seen some non-public data in powertrain where a thin FE oil out performed a thicker non-FE oil in a on-highway fleet wear test. This test was conducted to show the benefits of the new FE lubricant, and wear was actually better than the current non-FE lubricant. This lubricant may be used in one of the highest volume vehicle manufacturers on the planet

Just because it's labeled FE doesn't mean it's sacrificing wear protection.

Depends on what FE was compared against what non FE oil. If you compare motul's top of the line FE oil vs. the worst non FE oil, I'd wager the motul will beat it since motul managed to somehow bump the hths to non fe levels.


However if you compare the best LL01 oil out there to the best fe oil, then I'm willing to say the non fe LL01 oil wins. If you compared the best LL01 oil out there to the genuine bmw LL01 fe oil, there's no chance the bmw LL01FE genuine oil comes close to offering the same protection.


At the end of the day hths determines protection under strenuous track conditions with extremely hot oil temps, that's simple fact. And the LL01 FE oils don't offer the same shear protection as the LL01 oils I mentioned above, hence there's just simply no way it offers the same protection. Even additive wise where zinc offers wear protection, you won't find the additive packages to the same concentrations as in LL01 oils.

So exactly how does an FE oil provide the same protection? Likely in a oe's street use or highway use test where the oil isn't pushed to the limits, then you'll see no protection issues with FE oils. but there's a reason why OE's don't put the extremely strenuous tests on FE oils and it's likely because they simply can't pass them.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by F87source

edycol chris719

What's the BMW oil spec for the new engines? Is LL-17 or something? Or is it still backwards compatible with LL01?


Ok my advice is as follows:

1) While underwarranty make sure you keep all your reciepts and use a BMW certified oil that is compatible with your engine. So something like LL01 or whatever the new stuff is. I would also look for a non-FE oil because those prioritize fuel economy over protection.

2) I would do a used oil analysis after a few track days to see how the oil is holding up, and that dictates if you need to switch to a different oil or not.

3) I recommend something like pennzoil platnium euro 5w40, motul xcess gen 2 5w40 (has LL01 certifications in conjunction with MB 229.5, and porsche a40 which are very stringent tests).


4) I disagree with E90, I would never track my car with any type of FE oil. If you want to run a genuine BMW oil then run a non FE, genuine 5w30 bmw LL01 oil. Despite validation being done on 0W30, there's a reason why BMW still offers and specifies non-FE oils, and it's for protection when fuel economy isn't a concern.

BMW only made Fe oils to help pass emissions to sell their cars, just like how subaru had to create horrific tunes for the sti to pass emissions. Clearly it isn't prioritizing protection - which is something you would want for track days. If emissions weren't so stringent I bet FE oils wouldn't exist, and if FE oils provided enough protection then why don't they have more stringest certifications like porsche A40 and MB 229.5, and why do LL01 oils still exist?

Exactly, because FE oils were not made with upmost protection in mind.

2024 model year cars with S58 are showing LL17FE+ only in the manual. This is a 0W-20 generally. HTHS must 2.6 min. Mid SAPS.

I have not seen the lastest TIS pages, but as recently as late 2022, TIS was showing LL-01FE as the recommended oil for North American S58 and full LL-01 still being technically suitable. As I don't think S58 has had any revision since it showed up in the M3/M4, I would guess TIS would still show at least LL-01FE being suitable. Just my opinion but I would never track one with 0W-20, although I guess S58 has such good cooling it may not be a problem in theory. I'm still just not comfortable running that oil at any time in an M engine.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by E90convert

I've actually seen some non-public data in powertrain where a thin FE oil out performed a thicker non-FE oil in a on-highway fleet wear test. This test was conducted to show the benefits of the new FE lubricant, and wear was actually better than the current non-FE lubricant. This lubricant may be used in one of the highest volume vehicle manufacturers on the planet

Just because it's labeled FE doesn't mean it's sacrificing wear protection.

It's probably not apples to apples. Most of those tests in journals like SAE are comparing a lower quality or older additive package oil to a brand new FE oil. There is zero doubt that M1 0W-40, having a modern add pack and 3.6 HTHS will provide better wear protection than any 2.6 cP HTHS 0W-20. The additive package does do the heavy lifting for many parts of the engine but main and rod bearings rely on hydrodynamic lubrication and so the MOFT / HTHS is the key parameter. There's still no substitute for viscosity under harsh conditions. You can see that the Corvette Z06 runs a brand new 5W-50 and the real Porsche engines still all run a 3.8 HTHS 0W-40.

You will also note that the Red Bull guys with the 1000 HP S58 engines that BMW M tore apart and looked good have been captured on video filling them with Motul 300V 10W-60.

[BackOnBlack]

I really appreciate all of your kind replies. Fascinating discussion, I have a lot of homework to do without a doubt.

Thank you!

[dvas]

I'm not an expert in this area but a lot of guys that BMW club race and/or very heavily track their cars are running Redline 50WT race oil. I switched over to this after my warranty was up and I started doing oil changes myself rather than the dealer. My car is almost exclusively run on to/from/on track. So far, she's running strong.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by dvas

I'm not an expert in this area but a lot of guys that BMW club race and/or very heavily track their cars are running Redline 50WT race oil. I switched over to this after my warranty was up and I started doing oil changes myself rather than the dealer. My car is almost exclusively run on to/from/on track. So far, she's running strong.

Redline 5W-50 is really thick. I would probably use the 5W-40 or 0W-40, which is already quite a bit thicker than off the shelf 40s. I don't think you'll have a problem I just don't think it's helpful or necessary.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

I really appreciate all of your kind replies. Fascinating discussion, I have a lot of homework to do without a doubt.

Thank you!

If you don't care about what your manual says, just on pure technical merit, I would probably suggest you run PP Euro 5W-40, M1 0W-40, or Motul XCess Gen2 5W-40 on track. I will probably run M1 0W-40 between dealer changes if I end up getting a G87 M2 with S58.

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by dvas

I'm not an expert in this area but a lot of guys that BMW club race and/or very heavily track their cars are running Redline 50WT race oil. I switched over to this after my warranty was up and I started doing oil changes myself rather than the dealer. My car is almost exclusively run on to/from/on track. So far, she's running strong.

This is what I do as well; daily, drive to/from track, and enjoy a single car for all.

However, does your post imply that using a non-BMW oil might potentially void the warranty?

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by chris719

If you don't care about what your manual says, just on pure technical merit, I would probably suggest you run PP Euro 5W-40, M1 0W-40, or Motul XCess Gen2 5W-40 on track. I will probably run M1 0W-40 between dealer changes if I end up getting a G87 M2 with S58.

Thank you for your suggestions.

I dont' much care what the manual says frankly. What I want to do is what's best for the engine. I think this is a special car, and I really would like to keep it for years to come.

My intention is to use this vehicle for all purposes, daily, autox, some track, for 5-6 years, and depending on how it holds up and how the electronics don't screw up, I can then turn it into a more track-focused car at that time. I think if I start with good maintenance habits and keep it up, this car hopefully go beyond 150-200K miles.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

However, does your post imply that using a non-BMW oil might potentially void the warranty?

Using a non-BMW oil is fine, however, it has to carry a BMW approval such as LL-01, LL-01FE, LL-04, LL-12FE, LL-17FE+, etc. If you go off label and use a non-BMW approved oil like the aforementioned Redline, you are at your own risk. Redline is a good oil but not sure if it's worth the risk they fight you under warranty.

The safest thing from a warranty perspective is to use the spec that your manual calls out. However, BMW's authoritative source is TIS which will likely list multiple options. The difference between all these specs is viscosity and ash-generating additive/detergent levels (SAPS). Since US spec cars don't have an additional exhaust particulate filter (GPF), you are safe to run full-SAPS spec oils which are LL-01 and LL-01FE. EU cars would have to run LL-04, 12, 17, or other mid-SAPS spec.

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by chris719

Using a non-BMW oil is fine, however, it has to carry a BMW approval such as LL-01, LL-01FE, LL-04, LL-12FE, LL-17FE+, etc. If you go off label and use a non-BMW approved oil like the aforementioned Redline, you are at your own risk. Redline is a good oil but not sure if it's worth the risk they fight you under warranty.

The safest thing from a warranty perspective is to use the spec that your manual calls out. However, BMW's authoritative source is TIS which will likely list multiple options. The difference between all these specs is viscosity and ash-generating additive/detergent levels (SAPS). Since US spec cars don't have an additional exhaust particulate filter (GPF), you are safe to run full-SAPS spec oils which are LL-01 and LL-01FE. EU cars would have to run LL-04, 12, 17, or other mid-SAPS spec.

I really appreciate the explanation and guidance, thank you. This makes sense now.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

I really appreciate the explanation and guidance, thank you. This makes sense now.

Absolutely DO NOT use any kind of FE oil on the track. Please, don't be that guy.

The thing about oil is that what really matters is HTHS. LL01 and LL04 oils have minimum HTHS of 3.5. HTHS is measured at 150c, not 100c and methodology is same as one to determine CCS, or cold cranking simulation. It is more accurate determinant of performance and protection. In addition, LL01 nad LL04 are known to have more traditional, Zinc rich additives. ZDDP is the last line of defense in case there is a breakdown of viscosity. The higher the HTHS, the lower probability of breakdown. If that happens, ZDDP is the one preventing contact of two surfaces. LL01 oils are high in ZDDP.
Racing oils are rich in ZDDP: Motul 300V or Redline. However, you are under warranty. I would not venture there.
Good thing is that M models since F generation have overkill cooling system. You can by all means use street oils. However, make sure that oil has Porsche A40 approval in addition to LL01. Porsche approval is not particularly stringent, however, it has specific track test where oil must complete 8X1hrs of Nordschleife track simulation on oil sump rig. Which LL01 approved oil to use? I used E90 on track in Colorado (a seriously challenging cooling environment due to altitude. Much more than summers in TX or Arizona) Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, Motul X-Cess 5W40, Mobil1 0W40. I ran Mobil1 0W40 to 300f oil temperature (before installing oil cooler) and ran oil 5,000mile OCI. I did UOA of Castrol 0W40 on track, I did UOA of PPE 5W40 and Motul X-Cess 5W40 with support of SOPUS (Shell Oil Products US) and UOA showed no any more wear than street driving. The UOA I did with help of SOPUS, was more serious one than I did using Blackstone. There is no indication that these oils cannot sustain some serious abuse of several track days+regular driving for 5,000 miles.
Which oils I would go? Pick your poison, but if you asked me which oil I would have most confidence?
1. Mobil1 0W40
2. Castrol 0W40 (API SN version)
3. Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40
4. Motul X-Cess 5W40.

Now, after warranty we can have discussion about options, and there are plenty.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by E90convert

I've actually seen some non-public data in powertrain where a thin FE oil out performed a thicker non-FE oil in a on-highway fleet wear test. This test was conducted to show the benefits of the new FE lubricant, and wear was actually better than the current non-FE lubricant. This lubricant may be used in one of the highest volume vehicle manufacturers on the planet

Just because it's labeled FE doesn't mean it's sacrificing wear protection.

It does sacrifice protection. It is all about margin. Lower HTHS, higher probability of viscosity breakdown. In addition to that, LL17FE oils have lower ZDDP content. ZDDP is last line of defense once HTHS is not sufficient; meaning, viscosity breaks down.
That might fly driving a short trip from home to work, dropping kids to school. Actually there is pretty good evidence that low viscosity oils are better in short trips. It makes sense, the golden rule of lubrication is: As thick as necessary, as thin as possible. BUT, we are talking track, sustained high temperatures, sustained high temperatures around bearings, piston rings etc.

[dvas]

Originally Posted by chris719

Redline 5W-50 is really thick. I would probably use the 5W-40 or 0W-40, which is already quite a bit thicker than off the shelf 40s. I don't think you'll have a problem I just don't think it's helpful or necessary.

Thanks for sharing some thoughts.

Redline recommends their 40WT race oil for operating temps below 200 degrees and their line of 50WT for above 200 degrees which is I guess why the 50WT is used by heavily tracked cars. But theoretically it makes sense to go thinner, if possible, as another poster mentioned. I wonder how the redline 50WT compares to the BMW oil that the dealer was previously putting in.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

2024 model year cars with S58 are showing LL17FE+ only in the manual. This is a 0W-20 generally. HTHS must 2.6 min. Mid SAPS.

I have not seen the lastest TIS pages, but as recently as late 2022, TIS was showing LL-01FE as the recommended oil for North American S58 and full LL-01 still being technically suitable. As I don't think S58 has had any revision since it showed up in the M3/M4, I would guess TIS would still show at least LL-01FE being suitable. Just my opinion but I would never track one with 0W-20, although I guess S58 has such good cooling it may not be a problem in theory. I'm still just not comfortable running that oil at any time in an M engine.

Yeah that doesn't not sound like an oil that would offer any good levels of protection on track. It sucks that emissions is driving thinner and thinner oils these days.

It's still better than the 0w8 oil I saw Toyota using in the crown...

[chris719]

Originally Posted by dvas

Thanks for sharing some thoughts.

Redline recommends their 40WT race oil for operating temps below 200 degrees and their line of 50WT for above 200 degrees which is I guess why the 50WT is used by heavily tracked cars. But theoretically it makes sense to go thinner, if possible, as another poster mentioned. I wonder how the redline 50WT compares to the BMW oil that the dealer was previously putting in.

IMO I would use the RL 5W-50 in an S65 or S85 engine calling for 10W-60. The oil the dealer was putting in is most likely the LL01FE 0W-30. That is around 9-10 cSt (100 C) out of the bottle. It's about half as thick as the Redline 5W-50 which is 21 cSt at 100 C. The Redline 5W-40 is already much thicker both by KV100 and HTHS than a standard Euro 5W-40 like PP Euro. RL 5W-40 has an HTHS of 4.4, you'll never need more than that unless you are tuned running E85 or something.

Late edit - but the Mobil 1 X2 5W-50 has an HTHS of 4.3 which is actually just below the Redline 5W-40, that's how stout the Redline is.

[E90convert]

To clarify any speculation on the BMW recommendation, I looked at the 2024 M3 CS owner's manual, and the BMW recommended oil is LL-01 FE 0w-30.

I also learned today that the 2020 M2 CS Racing specifies BMW LL-04 0w-30 with a 5,000 km track miles change interval and an HTHS ≥ 3.5. The manual lists Shell Helix Ultra ECT 0W-30
as an alternative. Here is the PDS for the Shell product, https://shell-livedocs.com/data/publ...d2d5349fa8.pdf

Expanding beyond engine oil, BMW specifies a 30,000 km oil change interval for the DCT and a 5,000 km for the Drexler rear differential, using BMW genuine fluids. There is no coolant change interval. These are track usage mileage only.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by chris719

IMO I would use the RL 5W-50 in an S65 or S85 engine calling for 10W-60. The oil the dealer was putting in is most likely the LL01FE 0W-30. That is around 9-10 cSt (100 C) out of the bottle. It's about half as thick as the Redline 5W-50 which is 21 cSt at 100 C. The Redline 5W-40 is already much thicker both by KV100 and HTHS than a standard Euro 5W-40 like PP Euro. RL 5W-40 has an HTHS of 4.4, you'll never need more than that unless you are tuned running E85 or something.

Late edit - but the Mobil 1 X2 5W-50 has an HTHS of 4.3 which is actually just below the Redline 5W-40, that's how stout the Redline is.

Street: Rl5W50
Track: RL 15W50.
In S65 or 85 if climate allows , I would go as low VI as possible. Arizona? 15W50, Chicago 5W50, and in summer 15W50. It will be more shear stable.