[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

Any high-quality new fluid will improve shifts. There are two variables to consider, where top-notch fluids are important:
1. How long it keeps those smooth shifts (Motul, Redline, Amsoil and HPL are top products).
2. Track use. Aftermarket fluids are the way to go if the car is tracked. One does not want the fluid to become too thin on the track, and with that, jeopardize shifts. In the manual that is extremely important so that a "money shift" does not happen.

This is all true, but if you look at the datasheet, Pentosin FFL-3 is not thinner than the standard Motul DCTF. It also looks like it has much more Group IV. Motul DCTF would appear to be majority Group III. It seems to me that the OEM fluid is better than the Motul product. Redline is a little thicker.

[DriftKr6l]

Is this the Redline you guys are talking about?

https://images.app.goo.gl/cQ2YSV8iQWpnLj1s5

[ZL9M2]

Originally Posted by DriftKr6l

Is this the Redline you guys are talking about?

https://images.app.goo.gl/cQ2YSV8iQWpnLj1s5

Yes, that's what they spec for the car.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by DriftKr6l

Is this the Redline you guys are talking about?

https://images.app.goo.gl/cQ2YSV8iQWpnLj1s5

Yup that's it

[edycol]

Originally Posted by chris719

This is all true, but if you look at the datasheet, Pentosin FFL-3 is not thinner than the standard Motul DCTF. It also looks like it has much more Group IV. Motul DCTF would appear to be majority Group III. It seems to me that the OEM fluid is better than the Motul product. Redline is a little thicker.

All that is irrelevant. The question is what is volatility of Pentosin and cst at track temperatures. Also, base stock is irrelevant if final product is not good. VW had issues on DSG gearboxes 2003&2004 and moved from full synthetic to semi synthetic fluid and problems were solved.
Generally, Motul is regarded as long term solution in E90 manual gearboxes together with Redline D4 or MTL. MTL or MT especially if track use or Mitul Multi ATF. Some claim that Motul Multi ATF keeps shifts smooth and precise longest. So, what base stock it is is irrelevant for one that shifts.
Your OE fluid is going to be semi synthetic! Keep that in mind.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

All that is irrelevant. The question is what is volatility of Pentosin and cst at track temperatures. Also, base stock is irrelevant if final product is not good. VW had issues on DSG gearboxes 2003&2004 and moved from full synthetic to semi synthetic fluid and problems were solved.
Generally, Motul is regarded as long term solution in E90 manual gearboxes together with Redline D4 or MTL. MTL or MT especially if track use or Mitul Multi ATF. Some claim that Motul Multi ATF keeps shifts smooth and precise longest. So, what base stock it is is irrelevant for one that shifts.
Your OE fluid is going to be semi synthetic! Keep that in mind.

With all due respect, you know absolutely nothing about what is in Pentosin FFL-3 or FFL-4 and are just speculating. FFL-3 is one of the top DCT fluids in the world and the Nissan GT-R people have tried them all on track. Just because it is OE fluid does not mean it is inferior in any way. Further, the datasheet on this fluid is more complete than any other if you bothered to read it.

https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...4&d=1361720322

FFL-3 and 4 are not the same as the earlier FFL-2. There are quotes from Dr. Edgar Steigerwald on the GT-R forums where they discuss the development of the fluids. FFL-2 was a project rescue completed in 3 months where he was asked to develop a DSG fluid after another large corporation failed. FFL-3 and 4 are the mature and redeveloped second generation products.

Motul Multi DCTF SDS shows all C20-50 hydrotreated oils and a small amount of mineral oil. The Pentosin shows 20-50% 1-Decene homopolymer, so PAO. Hard to believe it would be better in regard to volatility and viscosity on track. The pour point and flash point of the Motul are worse as you would expect with no Group IV.

I see no objective data to suggest that Motul Multi DCTF is better than FFL-3. Reputation doesn't lubricate .

If you want to say that the High Torque DCTF or Redline are better fluids, then sure, I can buy that because the datasheets and SDS support that to a degree.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by chris719

With all due respect, you know absolutely nothing about what is in Pentosin FFL-3 or FFL-4 and are just speculating. FFL-3 is one of the top DCT fluids in the world and the Nissan GT-R people have tried them all on track. Just because it is OE fluid does not mean it is inferior in any way. Further, the datasheet on this fluid is more complete than any other if you bothered to read it.

https://www.1addicts.com/forums/atta...4&d=1361720322

FFL-3 and 4 are not the same as the earlier FFL-2. There are quotes from Dr. Edgar Steigerwald on the GT-R forums where they discuss the development of the fluids. FFL-2 was a project rescue completed in 3 months where he was asked to develop a DSG fluid after another large corporation failed. FFL-3 and 4 are the mature and redeveloped second generation products.

Motul Multi DCTF SDS shows all C20-50 hydrotreated oils and a small amount of mineral oil. The Pentosin shows 20-50% 1-Decene homopolymer, so PAO. Hard to believe it would be better in regard to volatility and viscosity on track. The pour point and flash point of the Motul are worse as you would expect with no Group IV.

I see no objective data to suggest that Motul Multi DCTF is better than FFL-3. Reputation doesn't lubricate .

If you want to say that the High Torque DCTF or Redline are better fluids, then sure, I can buy that because the datasheets and SDS support that to a degree.

I worked with Pentosin so I kind of having idea what it is. I used Pentosin.
But here is what you should do: take that PDS and MSDS, and shovel through fill plug into transmission. It will work like no other.
Since you are set on Pentosin, I have no idea what are you looking? Confirmation bias?
Go for it. You will get 50hp more, and no one will catch up with you.

You are also making assumption that Pentosin is OE fluid. Last time I checked, Shell is supplying both ZF and Getrag for last 20+ years.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

I worked with Pentosin so I kind of having idea what it is. I used Pentosin.
But here is what you should do: take that PDS and MSDS, and shovel through fill plug into transmission. It will work like no other.
Since you are set on Pentosin, I have no idea what are you looking? Confirmation bias?
Go for it. You will get 50hp more, and no one will catch up with you.

You are also making assumption that Pentosin is OE fluid. Last time I checked, Shell is supplying both ZF and Getrag for last 20+ years.

Pentosin is the OEM fluid and factory fill, so I don't know what you're on about. I already posted in this thread a ZF document showing that the fill is FFL-3. Not only that, I posted a picture of the BMW bottle which has Pentosin stamped into it. Last time you checked might have been a long time ago, and there is probably not an exclusivity agreement. ZF M-DCT factory fill is FFL-4 and ZF PDK factory fill is FFL-3. GS6-45BZ is FFL-3.

I do enjoy that your bias is worth more than the datasheets. You're doing exactly what you just said. Motul is a racy brand, so it must be better, right? I'm not set on anything, I just prefer data to anecdotes.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

Pentosin is the OEM fluid and factory fill, so I don't know what you're on about. I already posted in this thread a ZF document showing that the fill is FFL-3. Not only that, I posted a picture of the BMW bottle which has Pentosin stamped into it. Last time you checked might have been a long time ago, and there is probably not an exclusivity agreement. ZF M-DCT factory fill is FFL-4 and ZF PDK factory fill is FFL-3. GS6-45BZ is FFL-3.

I do enjoy that your bias is worth more than the datasheets. You're doing exactly what you just said. Motul is a racy brand, so it must be better, right? I'm not set on anything, I just prefer data to anecdotes.

It might not be exactly FFL-3, sometimes when companies make fluids for OEM's it is a special blend to meet stricter requirements. For eg. bmw's 5w30 with shell was a super good blend with a very stout build, but shell's own 5w30 they sold in bottles weren't the same.

My only fear is that bmw asked for a "life time" fill, and that hampered performance.


All I can add on here is that the OEM fluid in my use case (6 months of driving, 6 months stored for winter) seems to degrade rather rapidly, because just 2 years later (and maybe 5k km of driving) the stock fluid is starting to feel poorly again.


Also the reason why I am leaning towards redline over motul is because I have heard alot of bad things about motul dctf from the evo x community. One of the prominant suppliers (that also does alot of racing kind of like Turner motorsports for bmw) in that community keeps saying they have never had good experience with the motul fluid.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by F87source

It might not be exactly FFL-3...

I think the evidence is very strong it is. FFL-3 and FFL-4 are both listed directly in their own words as "first fill" for the PDK and DCT. This lines up with the ZF PDF floating around, so there's no reason to believe it's any different for the 6MT spec. I find PDFs going back all the way to the 1M and 2010 that say the same thing.

That said, they are all designed as lifetime fill fluids, and they are primarily designed as DCT fluids. So, I completely agree with you that we have no idea if they are ideal for the shifting feel of the 6MT.

For all we know, the worst fluid in the DCT could be the best for the manual if we are speaking only on shift quality.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

I think the evidence is very strong it is. FFL-3 and FFL-4 are both listed directly in their own words as "first fill" for the PDK and DCT. This lines up with the ZF PDF floating around, so there's no reason to believe it's any different for the 6MT spec. I find PDFs going back all the way to the 1M and 2010 that say the same thing.

That said, they are all designed as lifetime fill fluids, and they are primarily designed as DCT fluids. So, I completely agree with you that we have no idea if they are ideal for the shifting feel of the 6MT.

For all we know, the worst fluid in the DCT could be the best for the manual if we are speaking only on shift quality.

It could very well be the oem stuff for porsche, but maybe not for bmw. It says suitable where MTF-LT5 is required. So again I am not sure, in terms of the bottle - not all bmw bottles are pentosin stamped. The super old ones were, the US distributed bottles aren't, and the Bmw ones from Germany (that we get in Canada because it has French on it) are completely different. So it still could be a tweaked version of what pentosin offers.

Yeah I have no idea what the difference in fluids would offer for shift feel, but what I do know is new fluid is much better than old fluid, so imo the important part is how to retain that improved feel for longer rather than what fluid offers peak shift feel.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by chris719

Pentosin is the OEM fluid and factory fill, so I don't know what you're on about. I already posted in this thread a ZF document showing that the fill is FFL-3. Not only that, I posted a picture of the BMW bottle which has Pentosin stamped into it. Last time you checked might have been a long time ago, and there is probably not an exclusivity agreement. ZF M-DCT factory fill is FFL-4 and ZF PDK factory fill is FFL-3. GS6-45BZ is FFL-3.

I do enjoy that your bias is worth more than the datasheets. You're doing exactly what you just said. Motul is a racy brand, so it must be better, right? I'm not set on anything, I just prefer data to anecdotes.

You still think that higher % of something means better product? Final product is what matters. Not how much of one compound product has. It is how it is suspended with other compunds. So, you could have full synthetic product that performs worse than semi synthetic product. Also, MSDS never has list of all chemicals. MSDS is that: Material Safety Data Sheet. If it is not dangerous, it does not have to be listed.

However, let’s talk what you posted:

1. You posted something that is dated from 2006! I can guarantee you that both fluids are changed.
2. Last time I have seen Pentosin that is truly full synthetic (majority true synthetic base) was in the end of 1990’s. After that they are Group III as most blenders are.
3. The list from ZF is approved list.
4. ZF could move to Pentosin for various reasons. Most likely is logistical as Fuchs is largest industrial lubricant supplier in Germany. BMW moved to Castrol in the US for those reasons.
5. Still doesn’t mean it will perform better than Redline, Motul, HPL etc.
6. I don’t have bias for Motul. I have Redline in my gearbox. I could use Pentosin. Who cares.
7. However, you are trying to find someone to confirm your bias. I don’t understand why you are not already using Pentosin? You obviously like it. It is safe bet, use it.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by chris719

I think the evidence is very strong it is. FFL-3 and FFL-4 are both listed directly in their own words as "first fill" for the PDK and DCT. This lines up with the ZF PDF floating around, so there's no reason to believe it's any different for the 6MT spec. I find PDFs going back all the way to the 1M and 2010 that say the same thing.

That said, they are all designed as lifetime fill fluids, and they are primarily designed as DCT fluids. So, I completely agree with you that we have no idea if they are ideal for the shifting feel of the 6MT.

For all we know, the worst fluid in the DCT could be the best for the manual if we are speaking only on shift quality.

They are probably not exact fill. Only exact product would be one sold by ZF or BMW. Even if one transmission finds way in two different manufacturers, they might have different demands and require for formula to be unique to them.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

You still think that higher % of something means better product? Final product is what matters. Not how much of one compound product has. It is how it is suspended with other compunds. So, you could have full synthetic product that performs worse than semi synthetic product. Also, MSDS never has list of all chemicals. MSDS is that: Material Safety Data Sheet. If it is not dangerous, it does not have to be listed.

However, let’s talk what you posted:

1. You posted something that is dated from 2006! I can guarantee you that both fluids are changed.
2. Last time I have seen Pentosin that is truly full synthetic (majority true synthetic base) was in the end of 1990’s. After that they are Group III as most blenders are.
3. The list from ZF is approved list.
4. ZF could move to Pentosin for various reasons. Most likely is logistical as Fuchs is largest industrial lubricant supplier in Germany. BMW moved to Castrol in the US for those reasons.
5. Still doesn’t mean it will perform better than Redline, Motul, HPL etc.
6. I don’t have bias for Motul. I have Redline in my gearbox. I could use Pentosin. Who cares.
7. However, you are trying to find someone to confirm your bias. I don’t understand why you are not already using Pentosin? You obviously like it. It is safe bet, use it.

Wow. Just wow.

Yeah, the components don't tell you the entire story. We all know this. However, aren't you the guy that gets all excited about Castrol 0W-30 because of huge PAO? So now you're telling us that higher quality base oils matter only when you say they matter. Got it. Didn't you also mention volatility and viscosity (high temp), both of which are improved with Group IV base oils?

The only bias on this entire thread has been evidenced by you suggesting the Motul is better based on absolutely nothing but hearsay. I've not suggested that anyone use the Pentosin product. I am actually already using the Pentosin fluid because it's factory fill, lol.

You should look at the Motul High Torque DCTF. It seems their better fluid has 50-100% Group IV. I guess Motul thinks that the base stock could be improved.

https://www.quickfds.com/out/20100%2...2%2D019656.pdf

[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

They are probably not exact fill. Only exact product would be one sold by ZF or BMW. Even if one transmission finds way in two different manufacturers, they might have different demands and require for formula to be unique to them.

They are unique. The 3 is customized for Porsche and 4 for BMW.

You would have us believe that Porsche, ZF, and Pentosin all agree that FFL-3 is the factory fill for PDK, it's all Porsche will service it with, and it has PDK written on the bottle, but it is not the exact fill??

[edycol]

Just to add.
We are talking system that has big problem with oxidation due to enclosed design of gearbox. This is not engine where oil can release condensation, contamination etc.
True synthetic oils will not do good if not stabilized with Group III or II. That is why many OE fluids in modern transmissions are semi synthetic. ZF8 is classic example, and we are talking best transmission in the world.
That is why Pentosin is going to be majority Group III fluid. Manufacturer doesn’t want Redline as first fill. Redline cannot ever be lifetime fluid. But, what Redline can do is perform better in shorter change interval. There are always compromises.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by chris719

Wow. Just wow.

Yeah, the components don't tell you the entire story. We all know this. However, aren't you the guy that gets all excited about Castrol 0W-30 because of huge PAO? So now you're telling us that higher quality base oils matter only when you say they matter. Got it. Didn't you also mention volatility and viscosity, both of which are improved with Group IV base oils?

The only bias on this entire thread has been evidenced by you suggesting the Motul is better based on absolutely nothing but hearsay. I've not suggested that anyone use the Pentosin product. I am actually already using the Pentosin fluid because it's factory fill, lol.

You should look at the Motul High Torque DCTF. It seems their better fluid has 50-100% Group IV. I guess Motul thinks that the base stock could be improved.

https://www.quickfds.com/out/20100%2...2%2D019656.pdf

Yes I got excited about Castrol, here is why:
1. Very low Noack.
2. Very low cst of 11.7, compared to very high HTHS.

I explained below your post why you can’t clmpare engine oil to transmission oil. You CANNOT have 50% PAO in transmission oil and tell customers that it is lifetime fluid.

Also, stop with this nonsense. 100% PAO fluid is base stock WITHOUT any other chemicals added. That doesn’t exist in use. Your fluid would sludge in 2000 miles.
You should first understand how oil is made, out of what components etc. Voliatility is not only dependent on base stocks, but mostly on type of polymers, which you absolutely have nonidea what kind are used in Pentosin, Motul, Redline or anything else.
Most of these fluids, except HPL and maybe Redlines, will have chain polymers instead of very expensive star polymers.
That, you won’t find in PDS.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by chris719

They are unique. The 3 is customized for Porsche and 4 for BMW.

You would have us believe that Porsche, ZF, and Pentosin all agree that FFL-3 is the factory fill for PDK, it's all Porsche will service it with, and it has PDK written on the bottle, but it is not the exact fill??

Yes, that is how it works.
BMW also offers their own TPT 5W30 that is drastically different than same 5W30 offered by Castrol in same 5qt bottle.
BMW brake fluid is drastically different from Pentosin brake fluid offered in aftermarket sale. As is Shell TF870 from ZF8.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

Just to add.
We are talking system that has big problem with oxidation due to enclosed design of gearbox. This is not engine where oil can release condensation, contamination etc.
True synthetic oils will not do good if not stabilized with Group III or II. That is why many OE fluids in modern transmissions are semi synthetic. ZF8 is classic example, and we are talking best transmission in the world.
That is why Pentosin is going to be majority Group III fluid. Manufacturer doesn’t want Redline as first fill. Redline cannot ever be lifetime fluid. But, what Redline can do is perform better in shorter change interval. There are always compromises.

Yes, this is completely correct. You're conflicting yourself here though. I thought we just got done saying it didn't matter what the bases were, but whatever.

The regular Motul is almost all Group III. The Pentosin is between 25-50% Group IV. The High Torque Motul is almost all Group IV and the Redline the same. This is why I don't see any reason the regular Motul should be better than the Pentosin. Yes, the additive pack is unknown, so we can only speculate. But if you are going to tell me that Redline is better because it uses components that oxidize faster, then this logic shouldn't be applied selectively.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

Yes, that is how it works.
BMW also offers their own TPT 5W30 that is drastically different than same 5W30 offered by Castrol in same 5qt bottle.
BMW brake fluid is drastically different from Pentosin brake fluid offered in aftermarket sale. As is Shell TF870 from ZF8.

It's not the same. They are already unique formulations. So BMW paid for 2 different formulations from Pentosin? One super secret one and then one to sell to everyone?

[edycol]

I am not conflicted.
You don’t understand how this works and you are making assumption that Pentosin in aftermarket sale is same as first fill.
Motul products you are talking about are aftermarket products. Motul will tell you to change fluid every 30,000 miles or 15,000 miles if tracked.
Redline will not tell you that, but Redline customers are niche customers who have bit better understanding of maintenance.

However, what you want see is MSDS of Pentosin that goes in transmission in factory or one tht is branded under BMW or Porsche.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by edycol

I am not conflicted.
You don’t understand how this works and you are making assumption that Pentosin in aftermarket sale is same as first fill.
Motul products you are talking about are aftermarket products. Motul will tell you to change fluid every 30,000 miles or 15,000 miles if tracked.
Redline will not tell you that, but Redline customers are niche customers who have bit better understanding of maintenance.

However, what you want see is MSDS of Pentosin that goes in transmission in factory or one tht is branded under BMW or Porsche.

No, I understand perfectly how it works. My S54 engine came filled with Castrol TWS 10W-60. You could do a UOA and tell. BMW did not fill it with a secret Castrol product and sell TWS only to retail.

There is zero chance that BMW or Porsche has paid Pentosin to develop an exclusive lifetime fill DCT fluid that is NOT the same fluid that they sell to dealers which is also an exclusive lifetime fill DCT fluid. It would be the height of stupidity. In the US BMW was changing DCT fluid at 1200 miles in the E92 by accident. They were told to put the DCT fluid in and there was no warning that it is no longer a lifetime fill. Same as the manual in the M2, it is lifetime fill. It does not suddenly become anything else if it has to be serviced and refilled.

I would be happy to do a UOA on my 6MT fluid and VOA on FFL-3 to see if it's the same, although since it's the factory fill is used I really don't know if it would prove anything.