[///393]

Perception is reality, so perhaps I’m just not as perceptive but “Significant” seems like a hyperbolic way of describing a change in response I would describe as barely perceptible.

If the car (and thus the turbo) stay wound up, the idea that you are encountering “significant” lag in comparison to stock just seems wildly different from my experience FBO BM3 s2 with a CSF IC.

If it’s bothersome enough, perhaps a turbo inlet and DV can help. That said, compromises are an inherent part of this game so assuming there aren’t any boost leaks you don’t have many options. Maybe explore a more aggressive throttle map than what you were using? DSC full off uses comfort throttle map from my understanding so perhaps it would feel more responsive for you in Sport or Sport+ during your next spirited drive?

Despite this, I’m sure that road in this car was heavenly.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

Perception is reality, so perhaps I’m just not as perceptive but “Significant” seems like a hyperbolic way of describing a change in response I would describe as barely perceptible.

If the car (and thus the turbo) stay wound up, the idea that you are encountering “significant” lag in comparison to stock just seems wildly different from my experience FBO BM3 s2 with a CSF IC.

If it’s bothersome enough, perhaps a turbo inlet and DV can help. That said, compromises are an inherent part of this game so assuming there aren’t any boost leaks you don’t have many options. Maybe explore a more aggressive throttle map than what you were using? DSC full off uses comfort throttle map from my understanding so perhaps it would feel more responsive for you in Sport or Sport+ during your next spirited drive?

Despite this, I’m sure that road in this car was heavenly.

The feeling has been obvious from the start of the tune, but didn't really bother me much until I had the car on the Dragon.

I'm definitely going to do the inlet and DV before I return the car to stock, or choose a smaller IC and just go Stage 1 with my Fabspeed DP.

No way full off DSC uses the comfort throttle, I'd know that in a heartbeat and hate that throttle setting. I'm sure my car with everything off uses the Sport throttle settings, it's easy to feel because Comfort is just trash, and Sport+ is too sensitive.

I drove in Sport on the Dragon, otherwise I'd be sideways the whole time with all the tight turns and the big woosh of the turbo.

In fact, that's a perfect way to describe how the car feels now, compared to stock. It feels like I put a bigger turbo on it. The increased power is too obvious, but so is the lag before it hits. The interesting thing about that is that I can tell there is more boost sooner because if I start to get into it and then get back out before the big woosh it's far jerkier. Part of that is the tune I'm sure, but part of it is more boost earlier.

I guess I was foolish to think that I could get more power without a downside.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by David.m

Any factual data to support this? Goes against the general & accepted principle that 1 compromise of a bigger IC is increased throttle lag (though the Wagner Evo3 seems to go against that, maybe better engineered).

Yes, and I've posted it many times before: a bigger intercooler doesn't automatically mean more lag. In fact, using a bigger intercooler core is how you get pressure drop in the first place - The Evo 3 has less pressure drop than the Evo 2, which has less pressure drop that the Evo 1 and stock - these cores are 2 - 3 times larger as well.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...SF+competition

Here is a VRSF 6.5" competition intercooler vs stock (For reference, the CSF is 5.5" in depth and stock approximately 4") Both are similar in weight and volume, with the VRSF having more depth, and larger charge rows.
Zero turbo lag.

The Poster here saying he has lag may be true, but it could be just an installation error with the CP to IC, or TIC to IC connection - if the oring is not set properly, it can cause a leak. This is why I asked him to post a log and to run the car without the tune. He can drive it and see how if the behavior is tune related and/or see if there is an issue with high WGDC indicating a leak.

I'll admit, of all the intercoolers posted on this forum, the CSF is the only one occasionally said to add "lag" but only prior to tuning.

[Sundinisagod]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

Perception is reality, so perhaps I’m just not as perceptive but “Significant” seems like a hyperbolic way of describing a change in response I would describe as barely perceptible.

If the car (and thus the turbo) stay wound up, the idea that you are encountering “significant” lag in comparison to stock just seems wildly different from my experience FBO BM3 s2 with a CSF IC.

If it’s bothersome enough, perhaps a turbo inlet and DV can help. That said, compromises are an inherent part of this game so assuming there aren’t any boost leaks you don’t have many options. Maybe explore a more aggressive throttle map than what you were using? DSC full off uses comfort throttle map from my understanding so perhaps it would feel more responsive for you in Sport or Sport+ during your next spirited drive?

Despite this, I’m sure that road in this car was heavenly.

Yeah, I didn’t really notice any additional lag when I had my CSF ic installed. Mind you, the Fabspeed sport cat went on at the same time. Soon after the bolt ons I went with MHD stage 2+ and the additional boost down low really helped eliminate what lag was there. On the whole, I have much less lag (virtually non perceptible) now that I’m tuned, I couldn’t imagine going back to stock.

[///MPhatic]

It's worth noting that the other car I drive is N/A and has absolutely immediate response, so I'm sensitive to lag and boost.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The intercooler shouldn’t cause any adverse effects at all. If there were, you could have a boost leak causing Lag.

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I'll admit, of all the intercoolers posted on this forum, the CSF is the only one occasionally said to add "lag" but only prior to tuning.

Both comments relate to a CSF IC & you're link discusses a VRSF

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by David.m

Both comments relate to a CSF IC & you're link discusses a VRSF

I’m not sure what you’re confused about. I said a bigger intercooler doesn’t equate to more lag and provided an example.

If you are asking for examples for the CSF specifically, I know Bee Pee stated he installed one on his car and there was no turbo lag. There are quite a few people who installed bigger intercooler, like the VRSF Race - no turbo lag.

Again, it sounds like there is something wrong with the installation instead of the intercooler being too “large” (trust me, they look tiny out of the car)

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Again, it sounds like there is something wrong with the installation instead of the intercooler being too “large."

I'm pretty sure the install is without flaw, we took our time. I also feel like if there was an issue with the install I'd have more issues than just during initial throttle application. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it than you guys are. But it's certainly possible we made a mistake. I'm doing the inlet and dv as as the car sleeps for Winter, so I'll double check everything then.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I’m not sure what you’re confused about. I said a bigger intercooler doesn’t equate to more lag and provided an example.

If you are asking for examples for the CSF specifically, I know Bee Pee stated he installed one on his car and there was no turbo lag. There are quite a few people who installed bigger intercooler, like the VRSF Race - no turbo lag.

Again, it sounds like there is something wrong with the installation instead of the intercooler being too “large” (trust me, they look tiny out of the car)

I have the 7" wagner evo 3 intercooler and confirm that I felt no noticeable increase in lag

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I'm pretty sure the install is without flaw, we took our time. I also feel like if there was an issue with the install I'd have more issues than just during initial throttle application. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it than you guys are. But it's certainly possible we made a mistake. I'm doing the inlet and dv as as the car sleeps for Winter, so I'll double check everything then.

maybe have a good shop do a diagnostic ?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I'm pretty sure the install is without flaw, we took our time. I also feel like if there was an issue with the install I'd have more issues than just during initial throttle application. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it than you guys are. But it's certainly possible we made a mistake. I'm doing the inlet and dv as as the car sleeps for Winter, so I'll double check everything then.

Check the charge pipe to intercooler oring otherwise just provide a log. Instead of insisting there is no problem, at least give us and yourself the chance to confirm

[David.m]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I’m not sure what you’re confused about.

You initially post "the (CSF) intercooler shouldn't cause any adverse affects at all" I inserted CSF because that's what was being discussed.

I asked for any factual data in support, you're response included the CSF is "the only one said to add lag", I'm sure you can see the conflict there.

If the design of an intercooler allows for pressure drop I don't think a tune magically eliminates any consequences of that? I would also think the impact of any lag would be dependent on the driving conditions & transmission, it may be a non-issue for a DCT on track but a 6MT on tight/twisty roads with climbing hairpins would be a very different story.
Then for every poster who says no change to lag there is another who experiences increased lag, that could be simply how we perceive things differently.

Think I posted earlier, I'm guessing what the OP experienced is likely a combination of the larger CSF IC design (pressure drop compared to oem) and using higher gears (ie lower rpm), assuming correct IC install.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by David.m

You initially post "the (CSF) intercooler shouldn't cause any adverse affects at all" I inserted CSF because that's what was being discussed.

I asked for any factual data in support, you're response included the CSF is "the only one said to add lag", I'm sure you can see the conflict there.

If the design of an intercooler allows for pressure drop I don't think a tune magically eliminates any consequences of that? I would also think the impact of any lag would be dependent on the driving conditions & transmission, it may be a non-issue for a DCT on track but a 6MT on tight/twisty roads with climbing hairpins would be a very different story.
Then for every poster who says no change to lag there is another who experiences increased lag, that could be simply how we perceive things differently.

Think I posted earlier, I think was the OP experienced is likely a combination of the larger CSF IC design (pressure drop compared to oem) and using higher gears (ie lower rpm).

But that’s wrong, again - people have Intercoolers that are larger than the CSF and no lag. The intercooler is pressurized as soon as the car is on, and if anything, a larger intercooler allows a larger volume of air to be moved, which is better for a motor that’s producing nearly 400whp.

Here is Bee_Pee’s comments on his CSF:

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1493305&page=2

Here is a VRSF RACE intercooler (read more volume) vs stock. Notice there is power gains at every rpm, including during spool, indicating higher flow:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21119955&postcount=10

The only time I’ve honestly seen turbolag mentioned is typically an installation issue with an incorrectly oriented Oring.

OP needs to drive with the car on the stock tune and/or provide logs

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

maybe have a good shop do a diagnostic ?

I wish I had a good shop nearby. There are many perks to living in a small town, but big BMW tuning shops aren't one of them.

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Check the charge pipe to intercooler oring otherwise just provide a log. Instead of insisting there is no problem, at least give us and yourself the chance to confirm

As I said above, I'll check it when I do the inlet/dv. I'm not insisting anything, I'm making a reasonable assertion, which is that if there was an issue with the connection it'd be felt everywhere, and it's not.

Keep your shirt on bro, I'll get around to a log at some point.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I wish I had a good shop nearby. There are many perks to living in a small town, but big BMW tuning shops aren't one of them.

As I said above, I'll check it when I do the inlet/dv. I'm not insisting anything, I'm making a reasonable assertion, which is that if there was an issue with the connection it'd be felt everywhere, and it's not.

Keep your shirt on bro, I'll get around to a log at some point.

damn could you maybe drive outside of town a little farther ? or maybe you have a modded BMW friend who would know ?

[David.m]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

But that’s wrong, again - people have Intercoolers that are larger than the CSF and no lag. The intercooler is pressurized as soon as the car is on, and if anything, a larger intercooler allows a larger volume of air to be moved, which is better for a motor that’s producing nearly 400whp.



The only time I’ve honestly seen turbolag mentioned is typically an installation issue with an incorrectly oriented Oring.

I agree, a well designed/engineered large IC may not introduce any additional lag (maybe have even less) compared to the oem unit, don't know if that's true for the CSF. Quoting 1 or 2 posts might be an indicator but isn't evidence of fact.

If turbo lag is only an issue with incorrectly installed IC's we all should just fit the biggest unit possible? Makes as much sense as guys saying the G87's extra 100-150kg is a non-issue...

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by David.m

I agree, a well designed/engineered large IC may not introduce any additional lag (maybe have even less) compared to the oem unit, don't know if that's true for the CSF. Quoting 1 or 2 posts might be an indicator but isn't evidence of fact.

If turbo lag is only an issue with incorrectly installed IC's we all should just fit the biggest unit possible? Makes as much sense as guys saying the G87's extra 100-150kg is a non-issue...

How many posts have you seen confirming turbo lag? You keep on saying my statements aren’t enough, but you have literally provided nothing this whole thread.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

damn could you maybe drive outside of town a little farther ? or maybe you have a modded BMW friend who would know ?

You don’t need a BMW shop to work on them. I had a local shop throw on my inlet, and DV, change my oil, rotate my tires and I’m having them change my VC and IC because I’m lazy.

It doesn’t require a ‘BMW’ mechanic to do this work, but at the same time I understand not having Tuffy install your coil overs.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

damn could you maybe drive outside of town a little farther ? or maybe you have a modded BMW friend who would know ?

I do all my own work because a.) I take my time and do things the correct way and b.) I don't trust anyone with my car. For me to take my car to someone else they'd have to be a specialist. Yes, I have BMW friends, but in this instance there isn't much need, they were there when we installed the parts.

[shaneguags]

I mean for my build, I only bring my car in to shops that have BMW specific mechanics that have been working on BMWs for years. I went to two outside of that, and they did a poor job. many shops even deny me because of how modified my build is.

[AmuroRay]

I used to do the work myself, and if it was outside of my scope, hire friend for a 6-12 pack and some extra coin and if he wasn't busy (and sadly he's not around anymore, he was a Porsche/BMW ASE mechanic) then I would bring it to my Indy who was awesome but took forever or Finally I would bring it to a local (not chain) shop with people who appreciated and wanted to actually work on it.

Never had an issue, but everyone's situation varies.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I used to do the work myself, and if it was outside of my scope, hire friend for a 6-12 pack and some extra coin and if he wasn't busy (and sadly he's not around anymore, he was a Porsche/BMW ASE mechanic) then I would bring it to my Indy who was awesome but took forever or Finally I would bring it to a local (not chain) shop with people who appreciated and wanted to actually work on it.

Never had an issue, but everyone's situation varies.

yea I mean personally idk much about installing but I've had a few nightmares lol. I'm in Tampa, FL and the local shops are not the best. I gotta drive pretty far, around 30+ minutes