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      08-30-2019, 12:46 PM   #23
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Great car, just too damn big with exterior dimensions larger than an M4.
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      08-30-2019, 02:56 PM   #24
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My co-worker had his GT350R out this week and I should have snapped a picture of it parked next to my car. It sounds amazing and whether you love the looks or not you have to admit it garners a lot of attention. I just can't get past the build quality as the panel gaps are just as bad as they are on a base ecoboost model as the rear bumper cover in particular was sagging on both sides which is appalling for the price of the car.
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      09-04-2019, 03:59 PM   #25
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I'm a car nut that typically keeps a car about 6 months on average. It's a hobby of mine to buy and sell quite often.

Having owned many turbo BMW's, V8 Mustangs, and Corvettes in the past, I recently picked up a 2016 GT350 track pack. Although I thought it looked awesome (white w/ the blue stripes) and sounded good, I never truly loved this car...and sold it after 3 months. Had a 2016 M235i Dinan Stage 2 right before the Shelby and went back to a 2018 M240i afterward.

Bottom line for me was the Shelby's lack of low-end torque, lack of refinement, and size (felt literally twice as big as the M240i) robbed the fun for me. The M240 felt so much faster around town - you have to drive the Shelby like a madman for it to feel fast because it's really not impressive below 3500 rpm. Getting off the line quickly with the 6MT was also not easy, where the BMW just rockets off in 1st gear with the 8AT trans.

Still glad I tried the Shelby, as I always loved the look from when it first debuted in 2016. But for pure fun, the smaller BMW's with paddle-shifters are so much quicker and more agile that it's a no-brainer for me.
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      09-07-2019, 05:49 PM   #26
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I'm a car nut that typically keeps a car about 6 months on average. It's a hobby of mine to buy and sell quite often.

Having owned many turbo BMW's, V8 Mustangs, and Corvettes in the past, I recently picked up a 2016 GT350 track pack. Although I thought it looked awesome (white w/ the blue stripes) and sounded good, I never truly loved this car...and sold it after 3 months. Had a 2016 M235i Dinan Stage 2 right before the Shelby and went back to a 2018 M240i afterward.

Bottom line for me was the Shelby's lack of low-end torque, lack of refinement, and size (felt literally twice as big as the M240i) robbed the fun for me. The M240 felt so much faster around town - you have to drive the Shelby like a madman for it to feel fast because it's really not impressive below 3500 rpm. Getting off the line quickly with the 6MT was also not easy, where the BMW just rockets off in 1st gear with the 8AT trans.

Still glad I tried the Shelby, as I always loved the look from when it first debuted in 2016. But for pure fun, the smaller BMW's with paddle-shifters are so much quicker and more agile that it's a no-brainer for me.
Interesting. Having owned my M2 for just over a year now I am getting the itch to try something new. I'm a bit late to the car game so my experiences are limited to an Audi RS5 and the M2. If there is anything I learned from the Audi is that a car is far more than just the motor. However, the current crop of American V8s are very appealing. I have been looking a Camaro ZL1s (non LE versions as I think the LEs are hideous) but I just can't get past the interior. I think the ZL1 is a very nice looking car and it's hard to argue with the LT4 in it. The chassis is amazing too.

Even before cars had my attention, a Shelby has always been something I dreamed of. Looking at the GT350 I'm pretty floored by the exterior build quality. Panel gaps are bad, assembly of the rear bumper is consistently inconsistent, and the motor looks like a rats nest. I understand it sounds amazing, but lots of owners are experiencing motor issues, and frankly a Camaro would wipe the floor with a GT350. And then there is the whole NA thing. As you mention, NA motors may be more exciting at higher revs, but honestly the M2 in the 3-6k RPM range pulls nicely and consistently. I just got back from a trip on the Devils Highway which is considered the twistiest road in America (estimated to have 550 turns in 100 miles at 4-9k feet of elevation) and the M2 is just pure heaven here. 3rd and 4th gear almost everywhere with plenty of acceleration when needed.

I often think about a Camaro or GT350 in this area and the larger size and heavier weight would actually get to be tiring in this environment. Not sure I would enjoy it as much.

After all of this there is still something attracting me to these cars.
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      09-08-2019, 06:20 AM   #27
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Interesting. Having owned my M2 for just over a year now I am getting the itch to try something new. I'm a bit late to the car game so my experiences are limited to an Audi RS5 and the M2. If there is anything I learned from the Audi is that a car is far more than just the motor. However, the current crop of American V8s are very appealing. I have been looking a Camaro ZL1s (non LE versions as I think the LEs are hideous) but I just can't get past the interior. I think the ZL1 is a very nice looking car and it's hard to argue with the LT4 in it. The chassis is amazing too.

Even before cars had my attention, a Shelby has always been something I dreamed of. Looking at the GT350 I'm pretty floored by the exterior build quality. Panel gaps are bad, assembly of the rear bumper is consistently inconsistent, and the motor looks like a rats nest. I understand it sounds amazing, but lots of owners are experiencing motor issues, and frankly a Camaro would wipe the floor with a GT350. And then there is the whole NA thing. As you mention, NA motors may be more exciting at higher revs, but honestly the M2 in the 3-6k RPM range pulls nicely and consistently. I just got back from a trip on the Devils Highway which is considered the twistiest road in America (estimated to have 550 turns in 100 miles at 4-9k feet of elevation) and the M2 is just pure heaven here. 3rd and 4th gear almost everywhere with plenty of acceleration when needed.

I often think about a Camaro or GT350 in this area and the larger size and heavier weight would actually get to be tiring in this environment. Not sure I would enjoy it as much.

After all of this there is still something attracting me to these cars.
I think it really depends on what car you're coming from, and how/where you use your car. I came from a Mustang GT to the M2. So it feels lights, small and very nimble and with perfect balance of under/oversteer. But not as exhilarating, it feels slower and not as existing above 65mph and doesn't sound as good. And the power band on the 5.0 was better. Peak tq was low, and HP kept bulding from 4000 to 7000 and throttle response was better too.

The Mustang was less like riding a horse, and more like breaking one. You had to be a skilled driver to maximize it at the track. The M2 is easier to drive near and at the limits, and less scary. The Mustang would try to fling itself sideways for any reason and you had to be on top of it all the time.

Coming from a GT the GT350 is a step up in every way (minus low end torque). It handles way better, it has more top end, magnaride does a great job and it feels a lot flatter.

But coming from an M2 I think you would always miss the light on it's feet feel of the BMW. It is a smaller car and that's hard to make up for.

I'm a track rat, so I don't mind keeping the revs high. On the track you are hardly ever under 4000 rpm anyway.

Around town I'm not sure. Less torque is less fun. My GT had loads of torque down low and that was a blast on surface streets. 2nd gear was a blast.

But yeah, difficult decision. I still think a 500hp NA V8 in a M2 chasies would be the perfect car.
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      09-08-2019, 06:50 AM   #28
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[QUOTE=OC335sedan;25214135]I'm a car nut that typically keeps a car about 6 months on average. It's a hobby of mine to buy and sell quite often.

Having owned many turbo BMW's, V8 Mustangs, and Corvettes in the past, I recently picked up a 2016 GT350 track pack. Although I thought it looked awesome (white w/ the blue stripes) and sounded good, I never truly loved this car...and sold it after 3 months. Had a 2016 M235i Dinan Stage 2 right before the Shelby and went back to a 2018 M240i afterward.

Bottom line for me was the Shelby's lack of low-end torque, lack of refinement, and size (felt literally twice as big as the M240i) robbed the fun for me. The M240 felt so much faster around town - you have to drive the Shelby like a madman for it to feel fast because it's really not impressive below 3500 rpm. Getting off the line quickly with the 6MT was also not easy, where the BMW just rockets off in 1st gear with the 8AT trans.



Man I feel like you are my brother from another mother. I have an 18 m240i and I sometimes consider the gt350 or even the new bullitt to get back to the ol feelings I had with my fox body mustangs. I had feared the lack of refinement, size and lack of low end torque would be deal breakers. Having read your post, I feel like I don't even need to bother test driving them now.
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      09-08-2019, 11:23 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
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Interesting. Having owned my M2 for just over a year now I am getting the itch to try something new. I'm a bit late to the car game so my experiences are limited to an Audi RS5 and the M2. If there is anything I learned from the Audi is that a car is far more than just the motor. However, the current crop of American V8s are very appealing. I have been looking a Camaro ZL1s (non LE versions as I think the LEs are hideous) but I just can't get past the interior. I think the ZL1 is a very nice looking car and it's hard to argue with the LT4 in it. The chassis is amazing too.

Even before cars had my attention, a Shelby has always been something I dreamed of. Looking at the GT350 I'm pretty floored by the exterior build quality. Panel gaps are bad, assembly of the rear bumper is consistently inconsistent, and the motor looks like a rats nest. I understand it sounds amazing, but lots of owners are experiencing motor issues, and frankly a Camaro would wipe the floor with a GT350. And then there is the whole NA thing. As you mention, NA motors may be more exciting at higher revs, but honestly the M2 in the 3-6k RPM range pulls nicely and consistently. I just got back from a trip on the Devils Highway which is considered the twistiest road in America (estimated to have 550 turns in 100 miles at 4-9k feet of elevation) and the M2 is just pure heaven here. 3rd and 4th gear almost everywhere with plenty of acceleration when needed.

I often think about a Camaro or GT350 in this area and the larger size and heavier weight would actually get to be tiring in this environment. Not sure I would enjoy it as much.

After all of this there is still something attracting me to these cars.
I think it really depends on what car you're coming from, and how/where you use your car. I came from a Mustang GT to the M2. So it feels lights, small and very nimble and with perfect balance of under/oversteer. But not as exhilarating, it feels slower and not as existing above 65mph and doesn't sound as good. And the power band on the 5.0 was better. Peak tq was low, and HP kept bulding from 4000 to 7000 and throttle response was better too.

The Mustang was less like riding a horse, and more like breaking one. You had to be a skilled driver to maximize it at the track. The M2 is easier to drive near and at the limits, and less scary. The Mustang would try to fling itself sideways for any reason and you had to be on top of it all the time.

Coming from a GT the GT350 is a step up in every way (minus low end torque). It handles way better, it has more top end, magnaride does a great job and it feels a lot flatter.

But coming from an M2 I think you would always miss the light on it's feet feel of the BMW. It is a smaller car and that's hard to make up for.

I'm a track rat, so I don't mind keeping the revs high. On the track you are hardly ever under 4000 rpm anyway.

Around town I'm not sure. Less torque is less fun. My GT had loads of torque down low and that was a blast on surface streets. 2nd gear was a blast.

But yeah, difficult decision. I still think a 500hp NA V8 in a M2 chasies would be the perfect car.
Yep, I seem to fall more on the balance side of the equation. balance is something I think the M2 does excellently. Small, lightish, plenty of power. The other car I have significant interest in is a Cayman GTS. Smaller and lighter yet than the M2. Our roads and tracks here are very tight with little if any straights. A big motor wouldn't be beneficial here.
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      09-08-2019, 03:19 PM   #30
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Balance of the M2 is the stuff of legend. I have driven it at Spa Francorchamps, Hockenheimring and Nurburgring Nordschleife and I can vouch for that.

But living in Germany I spend a lot of time on the Autobahn where hitting 160 mph is a likely daily occurrence, and at least Nordschleife requires you to shift into 6th on the back straight while Spa requires you to wring out 5th to red line.

And at those places I wish for a V8.

Yes, both the cars you mention weigh 200-300lbs more than the M2, but they are both faster than an M2 as well. Nonetheless, the question is do you care about lap times, or a nimble driving experience.

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      09-08-2019, 04:08 PM   #31
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Balance of the M2 is the stuff of legend. I have driven it at Spa Francorchamps, Hockenheimring and Nurburgring Nordschleife and I can vouch for that.

But living in Germany I spend a lot of time on the Autobahn where hitting 160 mph is a likely daily occurrence, and at least Nordschleife requires you to shift into 6th on the back straight while Spa requires you to wring out 5th to red line.

And at those places I wish for a V8.

Yes, both the cars you mention weigh 200-300lbs more than the M2, but they are both faster than an M2 as well. Nonetheless, the question is do you care about lap times, or a nimble driving experience.

The only time I took my 6th gen SS with MRC to 140+ I felt like I was going to lose it - not confidence inspiring. Maybe the 1LE and GT is better now, but when I had it, it wasn't. But was a great sound and very impressive handling.
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      09-08-2019, 04:41 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Balance of the M2 is the stuff of legend. I have driven it at Spa Francorchamps, Hockenheimring and Nurburgring Nordschleife and I can vouch for that.

But living in Germany I spend a lot of time on the Autobahn where hitting 160 mph is a likely daily occurrence, and at least Nordschleife requires you to shift into 6th on the back straight while Spa requires you to wring out 5th to red line.

And at those places I wish for a V8.

Yes, both the cars you mention weigh 200-300lbs more than the M2, but they are both faster than an M2 as well. Nonetheless, the question is do you care about lap times, or a nimble driving experience.

The only time I took my 6th gen SS with MRC to 140+ I felt like I was going to lose it - not confidence inspiring. Maybe the 1LE and GT is better now, but when I had it, it wasn't. But was a great sound and very impressive handling.
The SS 1LE is completely different from a standard SS.

Completely different bushing set, MRC tuning , bigger/stiffer sway bars, grippier and much wider tires.
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      09-08-2019, 05:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Balance of the M2 is the stuff of legend. I have driven it at Spa Francorchamps, Hockenheimring and Nurburgring Nordschleife and I can vouch for that.

But living in Germany I spend a lot of time on the Autobahn where hitting 160 mph is a likely daily occurrence, and at least Nordschleife requires you to shift into 6th on the back straight while Spa requires you to wring out 5th to red line.

And at those places I wish for a V8.

Yes, both the cars you mention weigh 200-300lbs more than the M2, but they are both faster than an M2 as well. Nonetheless, the question is do you care about lap times, or a nimble driving experience.

The only time I took my 6th gen SS with MRC to 140+ I felt like I was going to lose it - not confidence inspiring. Maybe the 1LE and GT is better now, but when I had it, it wasn't. But was a great sound and very impressive handling.
The SS 1LE is completely different from a standard SS.

Completely different bushing set, MRC tuning , bigger/stiffer sway bars, grippier and much wider tires.
I wouldn't say completely different as it didn't feel much different when I drove one when I was considering replacing my SS. While granted they are different, we aren't talking M2 vs 228i here, we are talking OG M2 vs M2C, so improvement yes, night and day, no. But glad that one of you finally conceded to my point that the standard SS isn't that stable/amazing as apparently people make it out to be.
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      09-08-2019, 11:36 PM   #34
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Balance of the M2 is the stuff of legend. I have driven it at Spa Francorchamps, Hockenheimring and Nurburgring Nordschleife and I can vouch for that.

But living in Germany I spend a lot of time on the Autobahn where hitting 160 mph is a likely daily occurrence, and at least Nordschleife requires you to shift into 6th on the back straight while Spa requires you to wring out 5th to red line.

And at those places I wish for a V8.

Yes, both the cars you mention weigh 200-300lbs more than the M2, but they are both faster than an M2 as well. Nonetheless, the question is do you care about lap times, or a nimble driving experience.

The only time I took my 6th gen SS with MRC to 140+ I felt like I was going to lose it - not confidence inspiring. Maybe the 1LE and GT is better now, but when I had it, it wasn't. But was a great sound and very impressive handling.
The SS 1LE is completely different from a standard SS.

Completely different bushing set, MRC tuning , bigger/stiffer sway bars, grippier and much wider tires.
I wouldn't say completely different as it didn't feel much different when I drove one when I was considering replacing my SS. While granted they are different, we aren't talking M2 vs 228i here, we are talking OG M2 vs M2C, so improvement yes, night and day, no. But glad that one of you finally conceded to my point that the standard SS isn't that stable/amazing as apparently people make it out to be.
I've never driven a standard SS in anger, but I'll tell you , I've thrown my 1LE around and it's very confidence inspiring , much more so than my M3 was.

I've seen 140ish (In Mexico of course), and even with less than perfect pavement, it's still very solid and planted.
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      09-09-2019, 07:10 AM   #35
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I wouldn't say completely different as it didn't feel much different when I drove one when I was considering replacing my SS. While granted they are different, we aren't talking M2 vs 228i here, we are talking OG M2 vs M2C, so improvement yes, night and day, no. But glad that one of you finally conceded to my point that the standard SS isn't that stable/amazing as apparently people make it out to be.
I've actually worked on SS and LE Camaro chassis development. And yes, you are right. The base Camaro is ok, but nothing to write home about. The differences with the 1LE package is HUGE. the suspension and tires make a huge difference in handling. It stays flat and hooks up whereas the base SS rolls and pitches and doesn't have anywhere near the mechanical grip of a 1LE.

I think the PP2 Mustang is much more hooked up also. Stiffer springs, roll bars, and good damping with 305 wide Sport Cups is how all Mustangs should come out of the factory in my opinion.
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      09-09-2019, 09:23 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
I wouldn't say completely different as it didn't feel much different when I drove one when I was considering replacing my SS. While granted they are different, we aren't talking M2 vs 228i here, we are talking OG M2 vs M2C, so improvement yes, night and day, no. But glad that one of you finally conceded to my point that the standard SS isn't that stable/amazing as apparently people make it out to be.
I've actually worked on SS and LE Camaro chassis development. And yes, you are right. The base Camaro is ok, but nothing to write home about. The differences with the 1LE package is HUGE. the suspension and tires make a huge difference in handling. It stays flat and hooks up whereas the base SS rolls and pitches and doesn't have anywhere near the mechanical grip of a 1LE.

I think the PP2 Mustang is much more hooked up also. Stiffer springs, roll bars, and good damping with 305 wide Sport Cups is how all Mustangs should come out of the factory in my opinion.
That's very interesting. Might you know the answer to this question...

Why didn't GM put the solid rear cradle bushings in the SS 1LE?

My only complaint of the SS 1LE and the only area where the M3 was better was in the rear.

I added the ZL1 1LE solid cradle bushings to my car and it made a nice difference, with no added NVH.
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      09-09-2019, 02:55 PM   #37
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That's very interesting. Might you know the answer to this question...

Why didn't GM put the solid rear cradle bushings in the SS 1LE?

My only complaint of the SS 1LE and the only area where the M3 was better was in the rear.

I added the ZL1 1LE solid cradle bushings to my car and it made a nice difference, with no added NVH.
I don't know for a fact, but seeing as NVH is not really a contributor I think that it's just to give the ZL1 something unique. I mean a SC system is 5k with extra cooling. So the ZL1 needs some unique parts to justify it's $20k extra price tag. That's my theory anyway.
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      09-11-2019, 11:56 PM   #38
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In regards to refinement, I actually find my Shelby to be on par with my M2. I had to take the M2 in for rattles a couple of times within the first few months. Not so with the Shelby. Very tight. The feel of the plastic switches etc in the BMW are far superior to the Ford. However, the B&O audio in the Shelby is 1,000 times better than the HK system in the M2.

I would have kept both, but only have one parking spot in my building.

The Shelby is definitely bigger and you can feel it when you drive it. Once you get used to the size, you start to realize its capabilities.
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      09-12-2019, 11:50 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Pro Am View Post
In regards to refinement, I actually find my Shelby to be on par with my M2. I had to take the M2 in for rattles a couple of times within the first few months. Not so with the Shelby. Very tight. The feel of the plastic switches etc in the BMW are far superior to the Ford. However, the B&O audio in the Shelby is 1,000 times better than the HK system in the M2.

I would have kept both, but only have one parking spot in my building.

The Shelby is definitely bigger and you can feel it when you drive it. Once you get used to the size, you start to realize its capabilities.
do you miss the compactness of the m2 or has it become a non issue?
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      09-12-2019, 04:10 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Pro Am View Post
In regards to refinement, I actually find my Shelby to be on par with my M2. I had to take the M2 in for rattles a couple of times within the first few months. Not so with the Shelby. Very tight. The feel of the plastic switches etc in the BMW are far superior to the Ford. However, the B&O audio in the Shelby is 1,000 times better than the HK system in the M2.

I would have kept both, but only have one parking spot in my building.

The Shelby is definitely bigger and you can feel it when you drive it. Once you get used to the size, you start to realize its capabilities.
I have found this to be the case as well.

Going from my 2016 M3 to my 2SS 1LE, with the exception of a few carbon trim pieces, the 1LE is much quieter and materials wise, it's VERY close.

I think that those who blindly say, BMW interior is better because it's a luxury brand have tunnel vision.

The M2 interior uses crappy base 3 series materials, then M3 (in non extended leather) adds a nicer Napa leather and a few carbon pieces, but is far from perfect.

My M3 was a creak box that took 2 complete replacement door seals and ended up needing to be 3Med to keep it quiet.

It's funny how everyone defends BMW's interior, yet all you have to do is look in the problem section of the forum to see just how many issues BMW's interiors have.
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      09-12-2019, 08:57 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by TRZ06 View Post
I have found this to be the case as well.

Going from my 2016 M3 to my 2SS 1LE, with the exception of a few carbon trim pieces, the 1LE is much quieter and materials wise, it's VERY close.

I think that those who blindly say, BMW interior is better because it's a luxury brand have tunnel vision.

The M2 interior uses crappy base 3 series materials, then M3 (in non extended leather) adds a nicer Napa leather and a few carbon pieces, but is far from perfect.

My M3 was a creak box that took 2 complete replacement door seals and ended up needing to be 3Med to keep it quiet.

It's funny how everyone defends BMW's interior, yet all you have to do is look in the problem section of the forum to see just how many issues BMW's interiors have.
I respect that you like your Camaro interior but most will disagree. It's a really bad interior. There's a reason it's now relegated to last place in pony car sales and it certainly isn't due to performance. The styling inside and out just doesn't resonate with buyers.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-pack-level-2/

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Lows: That damn interior again, botched facelift.
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But here we go again: The Camaro’s cabin design is ridiculous. The materials are substandard. Every secondary thing that you need to reach, such as a map pocket or a USB port, is inexplicably behind your back or at such an awkward angle, like the mirror adjusters and navigation screen, that you grow resentful of the car. And why do we have to feel so cramped in such a large car?
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      09-13-2019, 02:57 AM   #42
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To all those wanting a V8.. I’d think an S55 with an AA midpipe, catless DPs and a JB4 would be a quick cure for that. Pretty massive power bump.
Or are you trying to stay stock?
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      09-14-2019, 11:56 AM   #43
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I have not driven an S55 yet, so I can’t answer that. But the deal breaker for me is the sound. I demand high end HP which revs high, low end torque, instant throttle response, and great sound. S55 doesn’t sing, it sound like its choking on concrete. To be honest every time I hear an S55 I cringe. Not good at at all and the main reason I not driving an M4 right now.

Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 09-14-2019 at 12:08 PM..
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      09-17-2019, 05:30 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Green Pro Am View Post
In regards to refinement, I actually find my Shelby to be on par with my M2. I had to take the M2 in for rattles a couple of times within the first few months. Not so with the Shelby. Very tight.
This Shelby owner thought it was a rattle trap:

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