[Piets94]

Originally Posted by chris719

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to software controlled components like the steering, diff, engine, and DCT since they are close to black boxes. They also have an established track record of being able to have their character changed significantly with software-only changes.

Exactly. These identical hardware components have been fine-tuned to give the driver the experience that many owners and magazines describe. I'm sure if you could load these software changes into a C you'd be close enough to the raw driving feel of a CS. Add in the adaptive dampers and tuning for these, nicer interior materials, expensive carbon exterior panels and trim and you'd have your CS - except it would still be a C at resale time.

Closer to the OP topic, I look forward to driving a manual C or CS to be able to compare more one day, but the DCT in the CS is very 'engaging', and satisfying to punt hard or cruise.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by chris719

For example, I do not consider the roof a plausible explanation for 6MT shift quality differences when the engine and transmission are mounted with soft rubber to a chassis that is already stiff and already has a roof..

I've never read anyone saying the roof improves the 6MT shifting experience. That's a new one

[ptgltw]

Pretty sure they used special blinker fluid in my M2 CS. It should last the life of the car. My blinkers are so much smoother and more quiet than the blinkers in my M2C

This also enables me to enjoy the shifter experience more as I'm shifting without the additional noise from the blinkers with the old fluid.

Maybe it's just me but me thinks that makes a big difference when comparing the C to the CS.

[300f87]

Originally Posted by chris719

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to software controlled components like the steering, diff, engine, and DCT since they are close to black boxes. They also have an established track record of being able to have their character changed significantly with software-only changes. Where we have evidence of identical parts I am far more skeptical. Not dismissing it off-hand, but would prefer to entertain plausible explanations.

Originally Posted by Piets94

Exactly. These identical hardware components have been fine-tuned to give the driver the experience that many owners and magazines describe. I'm sure if you could load these software changes into a C you'd be close enough to the raw driving feel of a CS. Add in the adaptive dampers and tuning for these, nicer interior materials, expensive carbon exterior panels and trim and you'd have your CS - except it would still be a C at resale time.

Not trying to side with anyone here, but I wanted to point out that in the recent iSTEP (F020-21-03-545), we have:

1. Three different GHAS settings (DSS TASC / DSS IPM):

• F087 = Base (OG)
  
• F087CP = Competition
• F087CS = CS

2. Three different MDM settings:

• F87 = Base (OG)
  
• F87_CP = Competition
• F87_CS = CS

3. Two different EPS settings :

• F87 = Base (OG)
• F87CS = Competition/CS

So, it seems like different software settings for GHAS/MDM is a contributing factor. I have the CS GHAS/MDM/EPS settings coded for my OG, and I felt significant difference in steering/handing characteristics. I am not sure about available coding options for DCT, as I have a manual transmission.

More information can be found here:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1605090

[chris719]

Originally Posted by 300f87

Not trying to side with anyone here, but I wanted to point out that in the recent iSTEP (F020-21-03-545), we have:

1. Three different GHAS settings (DSS TASC / DSS IPM):

• F087 = Base (OG)
  
• F087CP = Competition
• F087CS = CS

2. Three different MDM settings:

• F87 = Base (OG)
  
• F87_CP = Competition
• F87_CS = CS

3. Two different EPS settings :

• F87 = Base (OG)
• F87CS = Competition/CS

So, it seems like different software settings for GHAS/MDM is a contributing factor. I have the CS GHAS/MDM/EPS settings coded for my OG, and I felt significant difference in steering/handing characteristics. I am not sure about available coding options for DCT, as I have a manual transmission.

More information can be found here:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1605090

Yep, there are DCT options also. It's been known for a while as you mentioned. I also wonder if those settings do different things with 2021 ISTEP. I thought there were 3 EPS settings?

[300f87]

Originally Posted by chris719

Yep, there are DCT options also. It's been known for a while as you mentioned. I also wonder if those settings do different things with 2021 ISTEP. I thought there were 3 EPS settings?

F87CS MDM setting was not available in the older iSTEP versions, while F87CS EPS and GHAS settings were.

I was hoping for 3 EPS settings in the new iSTEP (with an additional unique setting for CS, so I could experiment), but there are only 2 settings for F87 (F87 for OG and F87CS for M2C/CS). See the last photo attached above for all available options. A lot of people have used F82GTS steering on F87 as an additional option.

[Megator]

Originally Posted by 300f87

F87CS MDM setting was not available in the older iSTEP versions, while F87CS EPS and GHAS settings were.

I was hoping for 3 EPS settings in the new iSTEP (with an additional unique setting for CS, so I could experiment), but there are only 2 settings for F87 (F87 for OG and F87CS for M2C/CS). See the last photo attached above for all available options. A lot of people have used F82GTS steering on F87 as an additional option.

I have the GTS EPS, MDM, and Diff coded

The first 2 I don't really notice. Steering is a bit heavier but it's hard to say it has more feel.

I never use MDM, on the street it's full traction because these cars like oversteering at any moment lol.

On track I run DSC off so no difference.

The diff made a huge difference, it locks way sooner and harder now making it great to put the power down out of a corner but more likely to do a fat drift if you lack throttle control.

Might try the CS steering.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by ptgltw

Pretty sure they used special blinker fluid in my M2 CS. It should last the life of the car. My blinkers are so much smoother and more quiet than the blinkers in my M2C

This also enables me to enjoy the shifter experience more as I'm shifting without the additional noise from the blinkers with the old fluid.

I think you're onto something. I've had a suspicion the extra weight of the 'CS' badge on the rear right side perfectly offsets a minor left-side weight imbalance caused by the battery location. This adds to the perfect left-right 50:50 weight distribution of the F87 CS which makes it the best car in the world of all time.

[buckybadger]

Originally Posted by ptgltw

Most M2C owners don't have Cayman GTS money though

Not true, I have an X5, M2C and looking to buy the M3C. I could also get a Porsche but that's not on my radar.
Some of us get cars we like!

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Megator

Might try the CS steering.

I hope to drive a CS soon to see how it is. I have to say, I hope it’s lighter than the other F8x steering.

My Z4M had much more honest steering than any E9x or F8x I’ve driven, and without being overly heavy. I used to complain about E9x (non M) having artificially heavy steering, and to my disappointment, BMW seems to have kept the weight only as if they believed weight == feedback. I almost exclusively use Comfort on the M2C as do most of the instructors in Spartanburg.

Ultimately, it’s not a big issue with the car as a daily driver. As a track tool I’m not sure. I suggest people that think any BMW after E46 has good steering feel drive a Porsche 997 or 997.2 911. Those racks make the Z4M feel mediocre. Closer to E36 levels of feedback.

Time marches on, so I’m not expecting anything new to steer like a car from 1996. Still, it would be nice for BMW to stop pretending that more effort means better. I blame journalists for this.

[M3R1]

Originally Posted by chris719

I hope to drive a CS soon to see how it is. I have to say, I hope it’s lighter than the other F8x steering.

My Z4M had much more honest steering than any E9x or F8x I’ve driven, and without being overly heavy. I used to complain about E9x (non M) having artificially heavy steering, and to my disappointment, BMW seems to have kept the weight only as if they believed weight == feedback. I almost exclusively use Comfort on the M2C as do most of the instructors in Spartanburg.

Ultimately, it’s not a big issue with the car as a daily driver. As a track tool I’m not sure. I suggest people that think any BMW after E46 has good steering feel drive a Porsche 997 or 997.2 911. Those racks make the Z4M feel mediocre. Closer to E36 levels of feedback.

Time marches on, so I’m not expecting anything new to steer like a car from 1996. Still, it would be nice for BMW to stop pretending that more effort means better. I blame journalists for this.

Coming from an E92 M3 and having had 2 E46 M3's as well as a few built N54 cars, I would agree with every review out there that the EPS has lost much of the feedback that the hydraulic steering provides. As a street only car, at this stage in my life I prefer the EPS over hydraulic. I know 95% of you are thinking i am crazy, however as I get older what i want out of a car has changed. I leave my steering in comfort all the time, sport and sport+ are too heavy.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by M3R1

Coming from an E92 M3 and having had 2 E46 M3's as well as a few built N54 cars, I would agree with every review out there that the EPS has lost much of the feedback that the hydraulic steering provides. As a street only car, at this stage in my life I prefer the EPS over hydraulic. I know 95% of you are thinking i am crazy, however as I get older what i want out of a car has changed. I leave my steering in comfort all the time, sport and sport+ are too heavy.

I always drove comfort steering in my f80 for 6 years and 70,000 km - the others were unusable for me. The F87 CS feels very different to the point that 2-3 weeks ago I shifted my steering default setting to sport.

[M3R1]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

I always drove comfort steering in my f80 for 6 years and 70,000 km - the others were unusable for me. The F87 CS feels very different to the point that 2-3 weeks ago I shifted my steering default setting to sport.

Sport is not terrible, just a little too heavy for me. I will say sport suspension is also not terrible, however comfort is just right for me.

The car is spectacular with everything in comfort.

[CarJunkie]

It's the programming, not the EPS itself. My 2004 RX8 has EPS. If you drove it you wouldn't know if I hadn't told you.

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by CarJunkie

It's the programming, not the EPS itself. My 2004 RX8 has EPS. If you drove it you wouldn't know if I hadn't told you.

Yep. Drive a brz with eps. The steering feel and feedback is phenomenal. Bad eps is just a tuning problem (or choice) in my opinion.

But I've done more research on steering feel this year, and it can also be greatly affected by car weight, tire width, and suspension geometry. The BRZ weighs 700lbs less than the M2, has 30mm narrower front tires, and potentially has better suspension geometry from the lower center of gravity.

[ptgltw]

Originally Posted by M3R1

I leave my steering in comfort all the time, sport and sport+ are too heavy.

Same. Comfort steering, suspension and Sport Plus Throttle for the most part. Maybe Sport if the roads are really curvy. Too much of a sensitive throttle isn't always a good thing.

For what it's worth. I track my CSR in rain mode and so do many other pro race teams. Who needs the extra wear and tear on the trans from slightly faster / more aggressive shifts?

Also rain mode makes shifting in the turns a breeze. Sorry a little off topic.

[Davil]

I switch between my M2CS and Z3 each time I drive. As many probably know the Z3 is known to have the best e36 steering with the quick rack and it was a popular mod to replace the stock rack in e30s and other e36 models. I also had all the front bushings replaced in the Z3 to bring it back to its original feel.

So. As I alternate just about every drive I get to experience the differences all the time.

If you distill it to one sentence. The Z3 feels organic and M2CS feels manic.

With the CS (I have Cup2) you can actually feel the surface of the road. It tramlines more. Turns in much faster and is probably far more irritating to the non enthusiast driver. But I love this. This I feel is the main difference to the C. The C has more of a comfort bias built in to appeal to more people and to make it less nervous. It still points well all the same.

I use sport in the CS. Steering weight is about the same in both cars. Neither are the overly light one finger steering Americans seem to love. They are just right for me.

I love them both. Very different experiences but both very therapeutic. That's what I want most from cars. Numbers don't matter to me. I just need them to make me feel good.

[sdhotwn]

Spending a lot of time in the M2 comp today and tomorrow with the M Advanced school. Then more time with my CS this weekend on track as well. Will be interesting I continue to compare and contrast them but the difference between in steering is so immediately obvious and different it is pretty amazing.

And on a side note, damn is the G80 impressive to drive.

[buckybadger]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

Spending a lot of time in the M2 comp today and tomorrow with the M Advanced school. Then more time with my CS this weekend on track as well. Will be interesting I continue to compare and contrast them but the difference between in steering is so immediately obvious and different it is pretty amazing.

And on a side note, damn is the G80 impressive to drive.

Do you think the G80 is better than the M2C or CS?

[Jimjamz]

They seem to be very different cars. To the point we're aiming to get a G81 to replace our G02 X4 end of next year - it will be the garage buddy for the F87 CS not a replacement for it. I wonder if many will cross-shop them?

[Davil]

Originally Posted by buckybadger

Do you think the G80 is better than the M2C or CS?

I stepped out of one after an extended test drive and into the other (my CS).

The answer is… it depends.

G82 is supremely confident. F87CS is supremely entertaining.

What floats your boat? I'm in the raw feeling entertainment camp. Others may not be and I get that. Depends what type of boat you want to float. G82 feels like a floating spaceship from another dimension. Pretty amazing really. F87CS feels like a car from at least 10 years earlier but still just as quick even though it requires a lot more participation. Much more sensation of speed and connection in CS. Effortless speed in g82 and you have no idea how fast you are going. What are you after? That decides your choice.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by buckybadger

Do you think the G80 is better than the M2C or CS?

Like the others said it's different. It drives much smaller than I expected. The steering is better than the M2C, but not as good as the CS. The transmission is both more refined and more sharp than the DCT in the M2C. The engine sounds fabulous, or whatever they've done with the active sound seems to work at least. The rear axle steers nicely with power, and man there is a lot of power! It feels faster a lot of the time even than the M5 Competitions we are hopping in and out of. If you gave me a choice at class to put down a confident fast lap between the G80, the M2C, and the M5C, it'd be an easy pick of the G80.