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      12-18-2019, 09:23 PM   #947
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I don't see these things as black or white, but rather a progressive scale of greys.

The CS series is not intended as all out track cars. They are intended to be dual use cars: practical daily drivers and track toys with slightly more bias towards track performance. The GTS (CSL in the future) series are intended primarily as track toys that can be driven to and from the track.

A true coil-over suspension will indeed offer better track performance due to greater adjustability of various rebound and compression adjustments, but at the expense of greater complexity. Not everyone is able to extract the best out of manually adjustable dampers. I have the MP-HAS on my M4cs, so I would argue that it is possible to fine tuning ride height and corner balancing with AD. I actually tuned the handling balance of my car by playing with the front and rear ride heights. Further, coil-overs also come at the expense of durability. Based on personal experience and shared experiences from track buddies, coil-over dampers require an overhaul after 2-3 season to remain at their best. The adaptive dampers on the ///Ms that I have owned still performed flawlessly after 70,000~90,000 km of ownership, which included well over 100 track day on each car.

From a track performance standpoint, coil-overs are the superior option, followed by the adaptive dampers and then followed by the static dampers. Fitting the M2cs with adaptive dampers is the right "engineering choice" given the M2cs' intended mission.
Yep, this is spot on.

I'm going to speculate a bit. Looking at the M2 racecar at €95k no one seemed to think it was overly expensive. This was the detuned version. I suspect another €15k for the hotter 450hp version. If we can reasonably assume that the racecar is nearly the lightest spec that you gen get. Logic would place an enthusiast track focuses CSL/GTS significantly pricier than the CS since it would closely represent the racecar. Would all the forum members jump at the opportunity to drive a M2 street legal racecar for North of $100K US? Clearly it is not cheap to make a reliable racecar. My guess is that the cost is increasing drastically to outfit the system to reliably take abuse. Im not interested in GTS, but I'm curious how much forum members would spend on one?
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      12-18-2019, 10:08 PM   #948
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Hell, I'm still on the fence of whether to pull the trigger on this car, but my struggle is not necessary if M2CS is worth it at $83K. It's whether I want to spend my budget on a car plus something else or all on a car. Lol. Worst case, I will pick up the last gen M2C w/ Dakota and call it a day.
Oof, tough choice. I wish I would've waited on buying my Comp for ONE reason. I wanted to do ED, but didn't have the disposable money for an unplanned trip. I vote M2C, do ED, and when you get back, do coilovers, wheels, exhaust, some aero bits, and call it a day. Pocket the little that is left over, done.
Good advice, but you have to understand I most certainly do not have the skill set to do all these mods. Better off just getting it from the factory lol.

And regarding my budget, I'm still spending the total msrp of the CS whether it's just the CS or the C + my watch hobby...this is another can of worms and if you know anything about the watch hobby, then you know what I'm talking about haha. Gotta figure out if I want to fund an AP and Patek here 😂
I vote M2C and a Patek. That combo will probably hold its value better than going for the CS.

Which Patek? I want a 5712 so bad.....
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      12-18-2019, 10:12 PM   #949
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Hell, I'm still on the fence of whether to pull the trigger on this car, but my struggle is not necessary if M2CS is worth it at $83K. It's whether I want to spend my budget on a car plus something else or all on a car. Lol. Worst case, I will pick up the last gen M2C w/ Dakota and call it a day.
Oof, tough choice. I wish I would've waited on buying my Comp for ONE reason. I wanted to do ED, but didn't have the disposable money for an unplanned trip. I vote M2C, do ED, and when you get back, do coilovers, wheels, exhaust, some aero bits, and call it a day. Pocket the little that is left over, done.
Good advice, but you have to understand I most certainly do not have the skill set to do all these mods. Better off just getting it from the factory lol.

And regarding my budget, I'm still spending the total msrp of the CS whether it's just the CS or the C + my watch hobby...this is another can of worms and if you know anything about the watch hobby, then you know what I'm talking about haha. Gotta figure out if I want to fund an AP and Patek here 😂
I vote M2C and a Patek. That combo will probably hold its value better than going for the CS.

Which Patek? I want a 5712 so bad.....
Ah I have finally found a fellow watch enthusiast on this forum!

I like your perspective on the M2C + Patek appreciation more than the CS lol. And another bonus point for you, I am indeed expecting a 5712, next year.
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      12-18-2019, 10:16 PM   #950
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Originally Posted by Mr Pete View Post
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
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Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Hell, I'm still on the fence of whether to pull the trigger on this car, but my struggle is not necessary if M2CS is worth it at $83K. It's whether I want to spend my budget on a car plus something else or all on a car. Lol. Worst case, I will pick up the last gen M2C w/ Dakota and call it a day.
Oof, tough choice. I wish I would've waited on buying my Comp for ONE reason. I wanted to do ED, but didn't have the disposable money for an unplanned trip. I vote M2C, do ED, and when you get back, do coilovers, wheels, exhaust, some aero bits, and call it a day. Pocket the little that is left over, done.
Good advice, but you have to understand I most certainly do not have the skill set to do all these mods. Better off just getting it from the factory lol.

And regarding my budget, I'm still spending the total msrp of the CS whether it's just the CS or the C + my watch hobby...this is another can of worms and if you know anything about the watch hobby, then you know what I'm talking about haha. Gotta figure out if I want to fund an AP and Patek here 😂
I vote M2C and a Patek. That combo will probably hold its value better than going for the CS.

Which Patek? I want a 5712 so bad.....
Ah I have finally found a fellow watch enthusiast on this forum!

I like your perspective on the M2C + Patek appreciation more than the CS lol. And another bonus point for you, I am indeed expecting a 5712, next year.
GTFO! Dude, please post pics of the 5712 and your M2C when it's in!

I would do it, but my wife would absolutely murder the f out of me. But, yolo....
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      12-18-2019, 10:21 PM   #951
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
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Originally Posted by Mr Pete View Post
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
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Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Hell, I'm still on the fence of whether to pull the trigger on this car, but my struggle is not necessary if M2CS is worth it at $83K. It's whether I want to spend my budget on a car plus something else or all on a car. Lol. Worst case, I will pick up the last gen M2C w/ Dakota and call it a day.
Oof, tough choice. I wish I would've waited on buying my Comp for ONE reason. I wanted to do ED, but didn't have the disposable money for an unplanned trip. I vote M2C, do ED, and when you get back, do coilovers, wheels, exhaust, some aero bits, and call it a day. Pocket the little that is left over, done.
Good advice, but you have to understand I most certainly do not have the skill set to do all these mods. Better off just getting it from the factory lol.

And regarding my budget, I'm still spending the total msrp of the CS whether it's just the CS or the C + my watch hobby...this is another can of worms and if you know anything about the watch hobby, then you know what I'm talking about haha. Gotta figure out if I want to fund an AP and Patek here 😂
I vote M2C and a Patek. That combo will probably hold its value better than going for the CS.

Which Patek? I want a 5712 so bad.....
Ah I have finally found a fellow watch enthusiast on this forum!

I like your perspective on the M2C + Patek appreciation more than the CS lol. And another bonus point for you, I am indeed expecting a 5712, next year.
GTFO! Dude, please post pics of the 5712 and your M2C when it's in!

I would do it, but my wife would absolutely murder the f out of me. But, yolo....
I'm honestly hoping it comes late next year as I just picked up a 38mm AP ROC...Another hit on the CS
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      12-18-2019, 10:27 PM   #952
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JCZ5, I have a M2C now. And after your post, I'm honestly considering keeping my M2C, as I genuinely enjoy it. But I will now use any money I would have used as a down payment towards a CS, and just pick up another watch haha thank you for your contributions to this thread!
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      12-18-2019, 10:41 PM   #953
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Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The benefits of coilcovers is adjustability that's why it's on the E92 GTS and the F80 GTS and it's also on the CS Racing.

Having ADs on the CS was probably not be the choice of engineers but from marketing. The engineers just have to do what they can with the directive given.

One cannot adjust ride height and corner balance with ADs and that is why many saw it as a downgrade on the CS which should be more track focus.

Added weight and cost is also a big factor.

A set of dampers would last around 30000 km if seen track regularly. That set of ADs on the CS won't last forever and please go and check how much is the listed price from your local dealers. Easily twice the amount of a set of good coilovers.

With coilovers one can rebuild which would lower the cost of replacement even further.

If you still have doubts about coilovers, go to your local racetrack and have a look at some of the fastest M3/M4 and see how many are on stock ADs.
I do know even since I knew of BMW, they always pioneered automotive technology in the name of enhance handling, which is their name to fame.

As with all modern M cars, it's saving grace is it's electronic locking Limited Slip Differential that based on load or vehicle or driver input, it able to locks the appropriate percentage and allowed slippage to maximize traction and over-steer, on demand, an in intelligent manner.

Having electronic dampers added to the mix that piggybacks of the same logic, adds a layer to the vehicle's control and dynamics.

When you break it down, coilovers or electric shocks are all the same core dampers coil, one just has more real-live vehicle influence over the other.

The advantage of coilovers is it's height adjustability and track tuned dampers but its still only set at once pace or height before you can jack up the car and physically adjust its setting. Having control from the cabin a huge advantage to the average street driven consumer.

I expect any dampers to last roughly 60,000 to 80,000 miles before they physically wear out and I'm aware they do cost $1,000 per side.

I could snag them online, retail, for $800 but that's the cost of doing business.

I'm sure coilovers needs a complete refresh sooner than Adaptive Dampers will due to its hard-core setting and tighter tolerances.

However you slice it, personal cars are luxury not a necessity, it really comes down to how much you want to spend for what you want.
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      12-18-2019, 11:31 PM   #954
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I don't see these things as black or white, but rather a progressive scale of greys.
Same here

It's also worth noting that coilovers and adaptive damping are not mutually exclusive

Plug and play adaptive coilovers are currently available for the F8X platforms from companies such as KW, Bilstein and Tractive

Furthermore, there are electronic controllers available from places like DSC Sport which allow for multiple and even custom damper tuning calibrations
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      12-19-2019, 05:16 AM   #955
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Ah I have finally found a fellow watch enthusiast on this forum!

I like your perspective on the M2C + Patek appreciation more than the CS lol. And another bonus point for you, I am indeed expecting a 5712, next year.
Then you must be one of Patek's VIP.

5712 is almost as hard to get as the 5711. In the grey market dealers are asking for double to triple the retail price.
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      12-19-2019, 05:32 AM   #956
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I do know even since I knew of BMW, they always pioneered automotive technology in the name of enhance handling, which is their name to fame.

As with all modern M cars, it's saving grace is it's electronic locking Limited Slip Differential that based on load or vehicle or driver input, it able to locks the appropriate percentage and allowed slippage to maximize traction and over-steer, on demand, an in intelligent manner.

Having electronic dampers added to the mix that piggybacks of the same logic, adds a layer to the vehicle's control and dynamics.

When you break it down, coilovers or electric shocks are all the same core dampers coil, one just has more real-live vehicle influence over the other.

The advantage of coilovers is it's height adjustability and track tuned dampers but its still only set at once pace or height before you can jack up the car and physically adjust its setting. Having control from the cabin a huge advantage to the average street driven consumer.

I expect any dampers to last roughly 60,000 to 80,000 miles before they physically wear out and I'm aware they do cost $1,000 per side.

I could snag them online, retail, for $800 but that's the cost of doing business.

I'm sure coilovers needs a complete refresh sooner than Adaptive Dampers will due to its hard-core setting and tighter tolerances.

However you slice it, personal cars are luxury not a necessity, it really comes down to how much you want to spend for what you want.
From a daily usage standpoint yes the adaptive dampers are superior because it handles a wider range of road conditions than the preset coilcovers.

From a track performance perspective then it's the other way around. People have different driving styles, drivers weight differently so to be able to corner balance and shift weights to close in on that optimum 25% distribution per corner is one of the cornerstones of coilovers. Then there is the rebound and compression than can be adjusted on the spot to fine tune over & understeer. Consider it akin to a set of 007 Tom Ford Bespoke ...

Last edited by Karmic Man; 12-19-2019 at 06:39 AM..
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      12-19-2019, 05:50 AM   #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I don't see these things as black or white, but rather a progressive scale of greys.

The CS series are not intended as all out track cars. They are intended to be dual use cars: practical daily drivers and track toys, with slightly more bias towards track performance. The GTS (CSL in the future) series are intended primarily as track toys that can be driven to and from the track.

A true coil-over suspension will indeed offer better track performance due to greater adjustability of various rebound and compression parameters, but at the expense of greater complexity. Not everyone is able to extract the best out of manually adjustable dampers. I have the MP-HAS on my M4cs, so I would argue that it is possible to fine tune ride height and corner balancing with AD. I actually tuned the handling balance of my car by playing with the front and rear ride heights. Further, coil-overs also come at the expense of durability. Based on personal experience and shared experiences from track buddies, coil-over dampers require an overhaul after 2-3 seasons to remain at their best. The adaptive dampers on the ///Ms that I have owned still performed flawlessly after 70,000~90,000 km of ownership, which included well over 100 track day on each car.

From a track performance standpoint, coil-overs are the superior option, followed by the adaptive dampers and then followed by the static dampers. Fitting the M2cs with adaptive dampers is the right "engineering choice" given the M2cs' intended mission.
Good to know your ADs are still hauling ass...which is a bit surprising because I know a few were not performing at their best after 40000km. 2-3 seasons can amount to quite a lot of mileage so a refresh on a set of coilovers is not unreasonable and much cheaper than replacing a set of ADs.

Perhaps you are right about ADs being the most appropriate solution for the intended demographic but I personally would much prefer a set of true coilovers like the KW clubsport on the M4 GTS.
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      12-19-2019, 06:14 AM   #958
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Ah I have finally found a fellow watch enthusiast on this forum!

I like your perspective on the M2C + Patek appreciation more than the CS lol. And another bonus point for you, I am indeed expecting a 5712, next year.
Then you must be one of Patek's VIP.

5712 is almost as hard to get as the 5711. In the grey market dealers are asking for double to triple the retail price.
Hahaha I am no VIP, just a humble passionate collector who got extremely lucky.

I honestly think the secondary market has been nuts on the nautilus and from my perspective not worth double msrp.
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      12-19-2019, 07:31 AM   #959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
From a daily usage standpoint yes the adaptive dampers are superior because it handles a wider range of road conditions than the preset coilcovers.

From a track performance perspective then it's the other way around. People have different driving styles, drivers weight differently so to be able to corner balance and shift weights to close in on that optimum 25% distribution per corner is one of the cornerstones of coilovers. Then there is the rebound and compression than can be adjusted on the spot to fine tune over & understeer. Consider it akin to a set of 007 Tom Ford Bespoke ...
As I mentioned above, electronic damper control is available in a "true" coilover

So the benefits of more traditional coilovers such as changing rates with different springs, adjusting preload, setting the ride height and corner balancing remain exactly the same

EDC allows for on the spot changes of rebound and compression settings from the driver's seat without having to stop, get out, crawl under and/or lift your car and/or take off the wheels to make both rebound and compression adjustments

In some ways it's kind of like the difference between having carburetors and electronic fuel injection

When EFI became commonly available it was viewed by many (myself included) as undesirable because the ability to change or adjust your air/fuel mixture appeared to be coming to an end and the reliability of electronic management was a concern

However, as the technology of EFI improved, that view began to change as the benefits increased not just in terms of fuel economy and emissions, but also in terms of performance and ease of tuning

That doesn't mean that EFI is superior to carbs in every situation as there are still pros and cons to both and the same can be said of EDC
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      12-19-2019, 08:30 AM   #960
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In some ways it's kind of like the difference between having carburetors and electronic fuel injection

When EFI became commonly available it was viewed by many (myself included) as undesirable because the ability to change or adjust your air/fuel mixture appeared to be coming to an end and the reliability of electronic management was a concern
My problem with FI back then was that it wouldn't flow enough air (at a reasonable pressure drop) in addition to being essentially non-tuneable except over small changes (thinking both K-jet and L-jet here). On my both my M30 and M10 engines, the transformation to sidedraft Webers was phenomenal...of course on my M30 it was from dual downdraft Zeniths. With a longer duration, high lift cam, higher compression pistons, porting, etc, the FI (and small carbs in M30 case) had to be ditched. My M10 E21 was putting out about 60% more power than stock, so there was no way for the K-jet to handle such. My M30 was putting out about 40% more than stock, and the triple Webers were super easy to tune (and a bear to synchronize ).
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      12-19-2019, 11:23 AM   #961
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My problem with FI back then was that it wouldn't flow enough air (at a reasonable pressure drop) in addition to being essentially non-tuneable except over small changes (thinking both K-jet and L-jet here). On my both my M30 and M10 engines, the transformation to sidedraft Webers was phenomenal...of course on my M30 it was from dual downdraft Zeniths. With a longer duration, high lift cam, higher compression pistons, porting, etc, the FI (and small carbs in M30 case) had to be ditched. My M10 E21 was putting out about 60% more power than stock, so there was no way for the K-jet to handle such. My M30 was putting out about 40% more than stock, and the triple Webers were super easy to tune (and a bear to synchronize ).
I can so much relate to all of this
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      12-19-2019, 11:32 AM   #962
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Poochie

Clean out your mailbox please . . .

///AVM

Poochie

Got your PM, but your inbox is still full. . . clean it up brotha!

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      12-19-2019, 12:22 PM   #963
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I didn't see it anywhere from others but the M2 CS sort of exists in the UK site but throws errors currently if selecting to build.

Base price confirmed though.

£75,320
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      12-19-2019, 03:48 PM   #964
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Are you done yet ?

"Life is like that...sometimes you have to peel off the bitterness in order to get to the part that is sweet." (Ken Poirot)
Nope. He still has to sell us on a Noelle tune while bashing everyone who dares to cross shop.
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      12-19-2019, 09:54 PM   #965
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Porsche, for instance, uses the same damper technology as BMW.

I disagree that magnetorheological dampers are that superior to mechanically variable dampers. We have them on our RS3 and they have their weaknesses too. Both technologies have their pros and cons.
GM's magnetic ride control is probably the best adaptive suspension I have ever used. Heard Ford has a good setup in their GT350 and now GT500. As a few have mentioned, I also hardly noticed any difference between settings in my F80. Magneride has the biggest difference between race and comfort settings. Personally I'd rather just have the option to opt out of BMW's adaptive suspension and go with a quality coilover kit. If I could have any choice of factory suspensions, I would start with a set of Multimatics(DSSV) spool valve dampers.
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I have to believe if it wasn't efficient or didn't meet their high standards, BMW/GmBH engineers would of discontinued offering it a long time ago.
It probably has more to do with Delphi(now owned by BWI) invented the tech and BMW would have to pay up to use it. Ferrari did just that and have been using magnetic damper tech for years.

Last edited by DieGrüneHölle; 12-19-2019 at 10:12 PM..
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      12-19-2019, 10:06 PM   #966
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I didn't see it anywhere from others but the M2 CS sort of exists in the UK site but throws errors currently if selecting to build.

Base price confirmed though.

£75,320
The BMWUK site also list the weight for Comp and CS as the same.
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      12-20-2019, 04:06 AM   #967
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Below a couple of considerations about the 1M:
As always; you've stated things very nicely sir!!
Some more 1M love:
https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/12/19/b...-or-bmw-m2-cs/ ("Better Buy: Pre-Owned BMW 1 Series M or BMW M2 CS ?")
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      12-20-2019, 07:57 AM   #968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
The BMWUK site also list the weight for Comp and CS as the same.
Regardless of weight, the CS will ride differently than the Competition version. Also, I read that the new 992 911 Turbo is about 110 pounds more than the last generation. Weight gain is everywhere in the car industry including Porsche.
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