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      04-16-2016, 04:39 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by confusion View Post
Not questioning his ability, just commenting on the distance between the wheel and him and how folded up his arms are.
Which is a very common seating position for many race car drivers... Just look at the NASCAR drivers and many other touring car series.

Like in V8 Supercars (Australia)



And in DTM (Germany)



And in the M235i cup in the VLN series at Nurburgring (Gebhardt raced a M235i at the 24h race in 2015)



Or the BMW M4 GTS driver here:

I wish my steering wheel would come out further than it does. I don't need to be that close but as a 6'-1" adult with slightly long legs the steering wheel is always so far away unless I jam my knees against the lower dash and have awkward pedal placement.
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      04-16-2016, 05:28 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Still more time on the table as that was not a perfect lap. He got out of shape going wide in turn 1.

This video is redemption for the driver though because his first lap he totally got seriously out of shape in either turn 1 or turn 7 going * way *. onto the runoff area.

I look forward to a lap where he doesn't run off the outside of turn 1 so badly and gets into the 1:11s.



As the M2 supplants the M4 as being the best sports car in the BMW lineup, BMW should seriously consider naming the next " 2 " platform a " 3" and having coupe, sedan and grand coupe iterations and then making the next 3 series a 4 series, in sedan , coupe and gran coupe iterations..
Turn 1 at Hockenheim is a corner where allmost everyone goes wide. IIRC they have had to warn drivers during F1 races to stay within the track limits at turn 1 because they tend to go wide there to carry more speed onto the following straight.

To me the lap looks to be a very good one, I'm not sure there's a lot of time to be found, but of course every lap can be improved (even F1 drivers do mistakes quite frequently)

DTM, F1 etc go wide there



The first video didn't work for me , but the Porsche GT3 driver certainly negotiated turn 1 just like I would like to see the sport auto driver do....

Using all the track and the runoff area but not sideways and all crossed up while doing so


On BOTH of the laps there are simply times where the driver is crossed up and losing time.



I'm very familiar with the fast line around an F1 track.. We have this thing called COTA here in Texas and I've managed to drive a lap or two on It ...
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      04-16-2016, 05:46 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Still more time on the table as that was not a perfect lap. He got out of shape going wide in turn 1.

This video is redemption for the driver though because his first lap he totally got seriously out of shape in either turn 1 or turn 7 going * way *. onto the runoff area.

I look forward to a lap where he doesn't run off the outside of turn 1 so badly and gets into the 1:11s.



As the M2 supplants the M4 as being the best sports car in the BMW lineup, BMW should seriously consider naming the next " 2 " platform a " 3" and having coupe, sedan and grand coupe iterations and then making the next 3 series a 4 series, in sedan , coupe and gran coupe iterations..
Turn 1 at Hockenheim is a corner where allmost everyone goes wide. IIRC they have had to warn drivers during F1 races to stay within the track limits at turn 1 because they tend to go wide there to carry more speed onto the following straight.

To me the lap looks to be a very good one, I'm not sure there's a lot of time to be found, but of course every lap can be improved (even F1 drivers do mistakes quite frequently)

DTM, F1 etc go wide there



The first video didn't work for me , but the Porsche GT3 driver certainly negotiated turn 1 just like I would like to see the sport auto driver do....

Using all the track and the runoff area but not sideways and all crossed up while doing so


On BOTH of the laps there are simply times where the driver is crossed up and losing time.



I'm very familiar with the fast line around an F1 track.. We have this thing called COTA here in Texas and I've managed to drive a lap or two on It ...
When is he sideways and crossed up in turn 1 at the 1:12.20 lap?

He did a small correction on the exit of turn 1. Which is quite normal on a hot lap. Care to pinpoint the times he is sideways and crossed up in the 1:12.20 lap? (Please use time references from the video so it's easier to look it up).

Different drivers have different driving styles, but can set similar lap times. Jenson Button is known as a smooth driver with clean lines. Lewis Hamilton is more aggressive. Michael Schumacher wanted a planted front end and preferred a nervous rear end he could play with using his excellent feel and reactions.

Watch a F1 race and you can see that on some tracks and corners the driver choose very different lines.

To me that last lap seems to be quite neat and tidy for a street car on street tires driven on the limit.
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      04-16-2016, 05:46 PM   #48
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Excellent viewpoints on tracking...but even the guys heading to Aspen are wearing headgear..
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      04-16-2016, 06:33 PM   #49
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I cant wait for this guy to get an m2 on the Ring-he is an amazing driver-and he drives all the bmws-and loves the 2 series; did 7:47 (btg) stock in the 235
his channel on youtube is M Gott



Last edited by Bobdaxx; 04-16-2016 at 06:41 PM..
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      04-16-2016, 06:33 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Still more time on the table as that was not a perfect lap. He got out of shape going wide in turn 1.

This video is redemption for the driver though because his first lap he totally got seriously out of shape in either turn 1 or turn 7 going * way *. onto the runoff area.

I look forward to a lap where he doesn't run off the outside of turn 1 so badly and gets into the 1:11s.



As the M2 supplants the M4 as being the best sports car in the BMW lineup, BMW should seriously consider naming the next " 2 " platform a " 3" and having coupe, sedan and grand coupe iterations and then making the next 3 series a 4 series, in sedan , coupe and gran coupe iterations..
Turn 1 at Hockenheim is a corner where allmost everyone goes wide. IIRC they have had to warn drivers during F1 races to stay within the track limits at turn 1 because they tend to go wide there to carry more speed onto the following straight.

To me the lap looks to be a very good one, I'm not sure there's a lot of time to be found, but of course every lap can be improved (even F1 drivers do mistakes quite frequently)

DTM, F1 etc go wide there



The first video didn't work for me , but the Porsche GT3 driver certainly negotiated turn 1 just like I would like to see the sport auto driver do....

Using all the track and the runoff area but not sideways and all crossed up while doing so


On BOTH of the laps there are simply times where the driver is crossed up and losing time.



I'm very familiar with the fast line around an F1 track.. We have this thing called COTA here in Texas and I've managed to drive a lap or two on It ...
When is he sideways and crossed up in turn 1 at the 1:12.20 lap?

He did a small correction on the exit of turn 1. Which is quite normal on a hot lap. Care to pinpoint the times he is sideways and crossed up in the 1:12.20 lap? (Please use time references from the video so it's easier to look it up).

Different drivers have different driving styles, but can set similar lap times. Jenson Button is known as a smooth driver with clean lines. Lewis Hamilton is more aggressive. Michael Schumacher wanted a planted front end and preferred a nervous rear end he could play with using his excellent feel and reactions.

Watch a F1 race and you can see that on some tracks and corners the driver choose very different lines.

To me that last lap seems to be quite neat and tidy for a street car on street tires driven on the limit.

I think he ran too wide in the 1:12.2 lap and lost some time.


But I am absolutely more critical of the 1:12.5 lap. When I saw that lap I was like whoa.

First off note how excellently he did the corner entry at 8 seconds on the 1:12.5 lap. This is the same corner that he went wide on the 1:12.2 lap and lost the most time.

However the 1:12.5 lap had 3 places where
I would bet the driver would agree he can improve on that lap.

: 53 second - crossed up badly

1:02 second - crossed up and loses time

1:08 second - uses all the runoff but does not make a clean exit

If he cleans up two of those areas the 1:12:5 he came up with would have been in the 1:11s I think, and I really think the driver would say a 1:11.5 was out there for him to get had he done a perfect lap.


I also think he would say that the M2 can be tricky at the limit like the 1M.
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      04-16-2016, 07:26 PM   #51
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Exactly, because it is the fastest way around this particular track. I can't think of a track in North America where overrunning the berms extremely wide is as critical a component of the laps. There's a reason why Hockenheim is considered a legend in and of itself and why the GP races with huge grandstands are held there and are exciting to watch despite it being a short track (especially in the Hockenheim short configuration). There's nothing quite like it that I have seen.

Also to address others' comments, would think that most should realize this, but this is a street car test by a racing driver and not a race car, so when they are testing multiple laps, brakes fade, tires get sticky and of course lap conditions change. Is there .2 secs left in perfect conditions? Maybe, but again, the track is a dynamic environment and a street car responds to that environment differently from a race car and thus you will never get the same consistency in a street car as in a race car. I'm sure Mr. Gebhardt would agree. It's a fantastic lap, just like the dozens of videotaped laps well documented in Sport Auto videos (all available on Youtube) for the Supertest and TunerGP on Hockenheim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Turn 1 at Hockenheim is a corner where allmost everyone goes wide. IIRC they have had to warn drivers during F1 races to stay within the track limits at turn 1 because they tend to go wide there to carry more speed onto the following straight.

To me the lap looks to be a very good one, I'm not sure there's a lot of time to be found, but of course every lap can be improved (even F1 drivers do mistakes quite frequently)
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      04-16-2016, 07:29 PM   #52
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      04-16-2016, 08:51 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm View Post
I wish my steering wheel would come out further than it does. I don't need to be that close but as a 6'-1" adult with slightly long legs the steering wheel is always so far away unless I jam my knees against the lower dash and have awkward pedal placement.
I'm 6-3 and I hate that the steering wheel doesn't come out far enough as well. I have to extend my arms that much more and it makes my inputs less smooth and means I tend to get thrown around in the car a lot more because I can only brace by jamming my legs into the footwell. Us taller guys like driving too BMW...

I'm not saying it'll make me a track god, apparently no amount of instruction will fix my habit of braking too deep into corners and getting on the power too soon, but It would be nice to have the wheel where I want it.
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      04-16-2016, 09:05 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobdaxx
I cant wait for this guy to get an m2 on the Ring-he is an amazing driver-and he drives all the bmws-and loves the 2 series; did 7:47 (btg) stock in the 235
his channel on youtube is M Gott


There's a member on here lukester who's pretty damn fast around the ring as well. Under 7:30 BTG I believe.
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      04-16-2016, 10:32 PM   #55
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      04-16-2016, 10:49 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
While he probably isn't a Senna, he is most likely a better race driver than most of us on the forums...
I challenge that! Oh wait, actually I don't .


Kidding aside, the best thing I did for my track driving was adding a Schroth harness to keep me in place, then pulling the steering wheel really close. Makes a HUGE difference...
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      04-16-2016, 10:50 PM   #57
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Fastest serie-BMW according to sport auto

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      04-17-2016, 12:28 AM   #58
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At least we are not talking about M mirrors...

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Originally Posted by ilya335 View Post
Listening to all these people criticize a pro race driver's seating positions is comedy
True. That is the magical world of forums. The amount of things people will single out and pick on is amazing.
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      04-17-2016, 12:41 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobdaxx
I cant wait for this guy to get an m2 on the Ring-he is an amazing driver-and he drives all the bmws-and loves the 2 series; did 7:47 (btg) stock in the 235
his channel on youtube is M Gott


There's a member on here lukester who's pretty damn fast around the ring as well. Under 7:30 BTG I believe.
Yeah he is a very good driver. But he has a race prepped E92 M3 and the 7:47 BTG time was for a stock M235i.
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      04-17-2016, 12:53 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Still more time on the table as that was not a perfect lap. He got out of shape going wide in turn 1.

This video is redemption for the driver though because his first lap he totally got seriously out of shape in either turn 1 or turn 7 going * way *. onto the runoff area.

I look forward to a lap where he doesn't run off the outside of turn 1 so badly and gets into the 1:11s.



As the M2 supplants the M4 as being the best sports car in the BMW lineup, BMW should seriously consider naming the next " 2 " platform a " 3" and having coupe, sedan and grand coupe iterations and then making the next 3 series a 4 series, in sedan , coupe and gran coupe iterations..
Turn 1 at Hockenheim is a corner where allmost everyone goes wide. IIRC they have had to warn drivers during F1 races to stay within the track limits at turn 1 because they tend to go wide there to carry more speed onto the following straight.

To me the lap looks to be a very good one, I'm not sure there's a lot of time to be found, but of course every lap can be improved (even F1 drivers do mistakes quite frequently)

DTM, F1 etc go wide there



The first video didn't work for me , but the Porsche GT3 driver certainly negotiated turn 1 just like I would like to see the sport auto driver do....

Using all the track and the runoff area but not sideways and all crossed up while doing so


On BOTH of the laps there are simply times where the driver is crossed up and losing time.



I'm very familiar with the fast line around an F1 track.. We have this thing called COTA here in Texas and I've managed to drive a lap or two on It ...
When is he sideways and crossed up in turn 1 at the 1:12.20 lap?

He did a small correction on the exit of turn 1. Which is quite normal on a hot lap. Care to pinpoint the times he is sideways and crossed up in the 1:12.20 lap? (Please use time references from the video so it's easier to look it up).

Different drivers have different driving styles, but can set similar lap times. Jenson Button is known as a smooth driver with clean lines. Lewis Hamilton is more aggressive. Michael Schumacher wanted a planted front end and preferred a nervous rear end he could play with using his excellent feel and reactions.

Watch a F1 race and you can see that on some tracks and corners the driver choose very different lines.

To me that last lap seems to be quite neat and tidy for a street car on street tires driven on the limit.

I think he ran too wide in the 1:12.2 lap and lost some time.


But I am absolutely more critical of the 1:12.5 lap. When I saw that lap I was like whoa.

First off note how excellently he did the corner entry at 8 seconds on the 1:12.5 lap. This is the same corner that he went wide on the 1:12.2 lap and lost the most time.

However the 1:12.5 lap had 3 places where
I would bet the driver would agree he can improve on that lap.

: 53 second - crossed up badly

1:02 second - crossed up and loses time

1:08 second - uses all the runoff but does not make a clean exit

If he cleans up two of those areas the 1:12:5 he came up with would have been in the 1:11s I think, and I really think the driver would say a 1:11.5 was out there for him to get had he done a perfect lap.


I also think he would say that the M2 can be tricky at the limit like the 1M.
So basically the only thing on the 1:12.20 lap is a bit wide in turn 1?

His previous lap has moments as you point out (but I didn't ask about that lap ), which is why his very clean lap is faster at 1:12.20... It could be as simple as colder tarmac since the first lap was done quite early in the year.

Anyway, IMO he isn't running too wide in turn 1. I have watched F1 and other race series there since the early 90ies and his line is perfectly normal. As I said, F1 drivers gets a warning to stay within track limits at corners like this because they let the car go wide to carry as much speed as possible. Keeping a tighter line through that corner kills corner speed.

But sure, every lap can be improved! And we will find out soon what he thinks when the Sport Auto Supertest is published next week
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      04-17-2016, 12:57 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
But sure, every lap can be improved! And we will find out soon what he thinks when the Sport Auto Supertest is published next week
Scroll down and there you are. All the eight pages.

http://www.2ertalk.de/topic/2123-m2-...richte/page-30

Cheers
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      04-17-2016, 03:18 AM   #62
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Damn, that's really really good to know
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      04-17-2016, 03:22 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I think he ran too wide in the 1:12.2 lap and lost some time.

If he cleans up two of those areas the 1:12:5 he came up with would have been in the 1:11s I think, and I really think the driver would say a 1:11.5 was out there for him to get had he done a perfect lap.


I also think he would say that the M2 can be tricky at the limit like the 1M.
In the Supertest article he does not mention the M2 being "tricky at the limit like the 1M" (compares it to the M3/M4 and the E46 M3, but not the 1M). He do mention that on the Nurburgring it does not have the "calm" of the longer wheelbase M4.

Generally he praises the car as being very fun and rewarding to drive on the limit. He has asked the M engineers and they say that the M2 is set up more for short tracks like the Hockenheimring and not so much for the Nurburgring. M engineers advised to increase front tire pressures and decrease rear tire pressures for the Ring lap compared to the Hockenheim lap (2.2/2.2bar vs 2.5/2.0bar).

This is his comments on the Hockenheim lap:

Quote:
Seldom has there been a sports car that has provided so much fun to drive on the Hockenheim track as the M2. Contrary to on the Nurburgring, the cars light tendency to oversteer fits perfectly for this track layout. Also the M2 scores with it's sharp/precise turn in and direct setup of the front suspension. The M2 responds amiably to load changes. Under load the rear axle pushes with ease. The transition between grip and slip is smooth and not abrupt. To put down a quick lap you need to have a bit of self discipline with the gas foot. Even if the M2 doesn't have semi slicks, the grip level of the tires (Micheling Pilot Super Sport) is convincing. The big brakes is, even after multiple laps, able to brake the car without changes in pedal pressure or modulation. The ABS brakes are also working perfectly on the limit.
Don't forget that the 1:12.20 lap is quicker than even the E92 M3 GTS, which was on sticky street legal track tires.

Last edited by Boss330; 04-17-2016 at 03:51 AM..
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      04-17-2016, 03:37 AM   #64
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Thanks for the translation @Boss330, me being lazy atm

1M and trickiness: PS2 tyres, pfff, PSS or P Zero are so much better in terms of grip/slip transition, PS2s are an on/off switch with the instant torque of 1M....

Less tyrepressure = more traction, less control. I'ts about a compromise...

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      04-17-2016, 04:07 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosozoku View Post
But at what speed? 100km/h? 100mph? Top speed?

If that's all the lift that is generated at top speed, then there's no need for even the trunk lid spoiler.
Still, it would be interesting to measure front and rear lift/downforce with the M Performance aero parts.
It's measured at 200km/h
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      04-17-2016, 06:06 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I think he ran too wide in the 1:12.2 lap and lost some time.

If he cleans up two of those areas the 1:12:5 he came up with would have been in the 1:11s I think, and I really think the driver would say a 1:11.5 was out there for him to get had he done a perfect lap.


I also think he would say that the M2 can be tricky at the limit like the 1M.
In the Supertest article he does not mention the M2 being "tricky at the limit like the 1M" (compares it to the M3/M4 and the E46 M3, but not the 1M). He do mention that on the Nurburgring it does not have the "calm" of the longer wheelbase M4.

Generally he praises the car as being very fun and rewarding to drive on the limit. He has asked the M engineers and they say that the M2 is set up more for short tracks like the Hockenheimring and not so much for the Nurburgring. M engineers advised to increase front tire pressures and decrease rear tire pressures for the Ring lap compared to the Hockenheim lap (2.2/2.2bar vs 2.5/2.0bar).

This is his comments on the Hockenheim lap:

Quote:
Seldom has there been a sports car that has provided so much fun to drive on the Hockenheim track as the M2. Contrary to on the Nurburgring, the cars light tendency to oversteer fits perfectly for this track layout. Also the M2 scores with it's sharp/precise turn in and direct setup of the front suspension. The M2 responds amiably to load changes. Under load the rear axle pushes with ease. The transition between grip and slip is smooth and not abrupt. To put down a quick lap you need to have a bit of self discipline with the gas foot. Even if the M2 doesn't have semi slicks, the grip level of the tires (Micheling Pilot Super Sport) is convincing. The big brakes is, even after multiple laps, able to brake the car without changes in pedal pressure or modulation. The ABS brakes are also working perfectly on the limit.
Don't forget that the 1:12.20 lap is quicker than even the E92 M3 GTS, which was on sticky street legal track tires.
I will have to get my conversion calculator out.

Glad to hear the engineers advice to put some more time pressure up front !

I try to run my 1M at 38psi front and 37 psi rear HOT when I am on track and for autocross ... Absolutely need more pressure up front than the rear.


Edit:

2.5 bar = 36 psi
2.2 bar = 32 psi
2.0 bar = 29 psi

7 psi higher in the front is ummm. A lot wow.i
Appreciate 0
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