[Info@mad-us.com]

Originally Posted by Shihab97_F87

Did you notice any pressure drop with such a big Intercooler?

Little to no pressure drop on our Hd race intercooler.

Here are the dimensions. 21"x 11"x 7''

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Info@mad-us.com

Little to no pressure drop

Here are the dimensions. 21"x 11"x 7''

Does it need cutting or the front brace removed?

[Info@mad-us.com]

Originally Posted by F87source

Does it need cutting or the front brace removed?

No its plug and play.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Info@mad-us.com

No its plug and play.

Btw this applies to the m2 right? Because the m2 front brace is alot different vs. the the m235i or normal F series n55.

Also do you have fin density measurements for the core? And do you have images of the internal core (through the inlet and outlet)?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Personally I've complained about the CSF mounting as well... I think all intercoolers no matter the size should have the additional mounts to the bumper bar support area like the ER intercooler.

It's better based on what? Again, how many failures have you seen ANYONE have with their intercooler mounting? The stock intercooler is 7-8lbs. Most aftermarket intercoolers are at least 15lbs-25lbs, that's 2-3times more. I would assume that if tripling the weight on the mounts didn't cause an issue before, it's not going to suddenly change.

Also, the intercooler isn't just braced by the mounts, it's also braced by the actual connections to the turbo and charge pipe itself.

Originally Posted by F87source

In regards to the wagner, that's because there has been no data displayed about the ability to shed heat, and physics would back the fact that a lower mass object of the same material will lose heat faster. This is what makes the wagner intercooler so good, it is able to keep up with the larger high mass bar and plate intercoolers (which have very high mass make them heat up slower) over single pulls yet it still utilizes a tube and fin intercooler (which is known to heat up faster yet in these tests is still performs just as good as the VRSF) designed to shed heat fast and not retain a bunch of thermal energy like a bar and plate intercooler would. This makes it more ideal for track use.

Yeah all of this is not correct for the reasons I literally went into detail about in my previous post. Tube and Fin coolers are just not as efficient as Bar and Plate. The Wagner has more surface area on the ambient rows - It's got more depth (7" vs 6.5) it's taller (13" vs 11") and according to the logs posted here, it STILL literally does not cool as well as the VRSF/BMS in absolute terms:

Post # 8 https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...20&postcount=8

Wagner Evo 3
Ambient 94F
16PSI
First graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
112F | 106F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
106F | 105F

Start of 5th | End of Run
105F | 108F

11F to 14F over ambient

-------------
Second graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
125F | 121F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
121F | 120F

Start of 5th | End of Run
120F | 120F

25F over ambient

-------------
Third graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
124F | 118F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
118F | 117F

Start of 5th | End of Run
117F | 118F

23F to 24F over ambient

********
Now the VRSF Race

https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9/1...og=0&data=4-17

VRSF Race
Ambient 87F
17PSI (variable)

First graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
100F | 97F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
97F | 97F

Start of 5th | End of Run
97F | 99F

10F - 13F over ambient

-------------
Second Graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
100F | 97F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
97F | 97F

Start of 5th | End of Run
97F | 99F

10F - 13F over ambient

The Wagner Sees MORE IAT movement AND higher absolute temps. Per the logs provided by this user, it actually never reaches the absolute lows of the VRSF (10F) and cannot produce a consistent low IAT run. The Subsequent runs were 20F+ over ambient.

Originally Posted by ZM2

Umm, he was doing 3-4-5-6 gear pulls in the desert with ambient >95F, and temps only started to slightly rise in the top of 5th/going into 6th. Gonna say that’s not the best case for making your point.

Until I see someone log a VRSF R on track with >475whp, still gonna say I haven’t seen anything perform better than my Evo3.

The log I posted from thejeremyman9 has two back to back runs with literally zero deviation in IATs. I still haven't seen your logs - but I can link to 3 different users who have the VRSF race and have 15F> even with 530WHP.
AsianBill motivman n55david

Originally Posted by 6speed_M2

If cost wasn't a concern or cutting/trimming the bumper, I would do the Wagner Evo III. Go big or go home.

I'm a believer in the quality of Wagner's products and R&D. The intercooler has the front brace which I like, it's absolutely massive, doesn't weigh too much from what I've heard & it comes with chargepipes.

Wagner's "quality" isn't a thing. Unless things changed recently, the cores were made in China, and the products can and do have "issues"

https://www.e90post.com/forums/attac...1&d=1460047937

Wagner Evo 3 fitment issue:
https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...t=Wagner+evo+3
More detail here:
https://x-ph.com/wagner-tuning-7-ste...ooler-evo-iii/

Wagner downpipe CEL (This is especially egregious because they cost as much as brands like AA, which offer a no CEL guarantee)

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...be602fbf4640a6

I honestly don't get the appeal of their products - they have a high price point but the performance doesn't back it up.

Originally Posted by Wolfman’s Brother

Hey look it’s all my favorite bp heads in the same thread again.

You guys are the best.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Btw this applies to the m2 right? Because the m2 front brace is alot different vs. the the m235i or normal F series n55.

Also do you have fin density measurements for the core? And do you have images of the internal core (through the inlet and outlet)?

The MAD Race was tested here, and we already reviewed the logs:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1909810&page=3

But I too would like to get an actually measurement of the fins and internal core.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It's better based on what? Again, how many failures have you seen ANYONE have with their intercooler mounting? The stock intercooler is 7-8lbs. Most aftermarket intercoolers are at least 15lbs-25lbs, that's 2-3times more. I would assume that if tripling the weight on the mounts didn't cause an issue before, it's not going to suddenly change.

Also, the intercooler isn't just braced by the mounts, it's also braced by the actual connections to the turbo and charge pipe itself.



Yeah all of this is not correct for the reasons I literally went into detail about in my previous post. Tube and Fin coolers are just not as efficient as Bar and Plate. The Wagner has more surface area on the ambient rows - It's got more depth (7" vs 6.5) it's taller (13" vs 11") and according to the logs posted here, it STILL literally does not cool as well as the VRSF/BMS in absolute terms:

Post # 8 https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...20&postcount=8

Wagner Evo 3
Ambient 94F
16PSI
First graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
112F | 106F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
106F | 105F

Start of 5th | End of Run
105F | 108F

11F to 14F over ambient

-------------
Second graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
125F | 121F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
121F | 120F

Start of 5th | End of Run
120F | 120F

25F over ambient

-------------
Third graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
124F | 118F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
118F | 117F

Start of 5th | End of Run
117F | 118F

23F to 24F over ambient

********
Now the VRSF Race

https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9/1...og=0&data=4-17

VRSF Race
Ambient 87F
17PSI (variable)

First graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
100F | 97F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
97F | 97F

Start of 5th | End of Run
97F | 99F

10F - 13F over ambient

-------------
Second Graphed run

Start of 3rd | End of 3rd
100F | 97F

Start of 4th | End of 4th
97F | 97F

Start of 5th | End of Run
97F | 99F

10F - 13F over ambient

The Wagner Sees MORE IAT movement AND higher absolute temps. Per the logs provided by this user, it actually never reaches the absolute lows of the VRSF (10F) and cannot produce a consistent low IAT run. The Subsequent runs were 20F+ over ambient.



The log I posted from thejeremyman9 has two back to back runs with literally zero deviation in IATs. I still haven't seen your logs - but I can link to 3 different users who have the VRSF race and have 15F> even with 530WHP.
AsianBill motivman n55david



Wagner's "quality" isn't a thing. Unless things changed recently, the cores were made in China, and the products can and do have "issues"

https://www.e90post.com/forums/attac...1&d=1460047937

Wagner Evo 3 fitment issue:
https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...t=Wagner+evo+3
More detail here:
https://x-ph.com/wagner-tuning-7-ste...ooler-evo-iii/

Wagner downpipe CEL (This is especially egregious because they cost as much as brands like AA, which offer a no CEL guarantee)

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...be602fbf4640a6

I honestly don't get the appeal of their products - they have a high price point but the performance doesn't back it up.

1) Yes I have seen issues with the plastic threads wearing out over time and failing. It doesn't just pull out, but the repetitive nature of the constant install and removal will destroy the plastic threads, so it is not an ideal mounting solution. Also note the stock intercooler also clips into the radiator mounts, it isn't just held in via the 2 screws. And the reason why you haven't heard more issues is because the F series is still relatively new...

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=828118



The intercooler shouldn't be distributing any weight onto the charge pipes or turbo outlet, because that will put alot of strain on the silicone couplers when the engine rocks back and forth. So not an optimal thing having the intercooler being braced by the charge pipes and turbo outlet.




The next thing you don't consider is thermal momentum and dissapation. The higher mass intercoolers may take longer to heat soak but it also takes longer to disapate said heat. So consider what that means on the track...





Just because it is made in China doesn't mean it is totally bad, it depends on QC - look at apple and their products being made in China for example. And if there are defects Wagner has excellent warranty - and from what I have seen VRSF has not only terrible QC with users getting damaged products, but they also have horrific customer service (look at their previous gen charge pipes, they rubbed on the steering racks and caused damage and even formed holes on the pipe from abraision. The customer who reported this was instead blamed for this issue and told they had bad motor mounts and got zero help, not a good look in terms of customer service imo). They even blamed XPH about a warranty claim and thats why mike no longer sells VRSF... So not a good look imo.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

1) Yes I have seen issues with the plastic threads wearing out over time and failing. It doesn't just pull out, but the repetitive nature of the constant install and removal will destroy the plastic threads, so it is not an ideal mounting solution. Also note the stock intercooler also clips into the radiator mounts, it isn't just held in via the 2 screws. And the reason why you haven't heard more issues is because the F series is still relatively new...

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=828118

Read that thread again, the OP damaged a screw on removal and had to use a larger one.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...rcooler&page=2

You’ll note here that the provided screws are larger than stock (likely in case of the above scenario)

Originally Posted by F87source

The intercooler shouldn't be distributing any weight onto the charge pipes or turbo outlet, because that will put alot of strain on the silicone couplers when the engine rocks back and forth. So not an optimal thing having the intercooler being braced by the charge pipes and turbo outlet.

I have good and bad news for you. They all do this, this is contrived issue that literally does not exist.

Originally Posted by F87source

The next thing you don't consider is thermal momentum and dissapation. The higher mass intercoolers may take longer to heat soak but it also takes longer to disapate said heat. So consider what that means on the track...

Again, this is all wrong, I’ve explained it twice already. The Wagner Evo 3 is within 5lbs of the VRSF, and doesn’t cool down as quickly because to doesn’t have enough internal surface area for convection. It’s just not going to be as efficient as a Bar and Plate IC and the logs prove it.

Thermal momentum isn’t a thing at these weights either, as the VRSF never reaches its thermal capacity, and has enough surface area to bleed off heat.

Please see this TRACK and daily driving comparison of the Evo 2 vs the ATM. The ATM was 6lbs heavier (24lbs) than the Wagner Evo 2 (18lbs) and and had lower absolute temperatures, slower temperature increase and identical cooldown.

The street performance is indicative of track performance. the Evo 3 didn’t display any ability to disappate heat faster than the VRSF R, and that’s not going to change on the track.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971

Originally Posted by F87source

1) Yes I have seen issues with the plastic threads wearing out over time and failing. It doesn't just pull out, but the repetitive nature of the constant install and removal will destroy the plastic threads, so it is not an ideal mounting solution. Also note the stock intercooler also clips into the radiator mounts, it isn't just held in via the 2 screws. And the reason why you haven't heard more issues is because the F series is still relatively new...

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=828118

Read that thread again, the OP damaged a screw on removal and had to use a larger one.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...rcooler&page=2

You’ll note here that the provided screws are larger than stock (likely in case of the above scenario)

Originally Posted by F87source

The intercooler shouldn't be distributing any weight onto the charge pipes or turbo outlet, because that will put alot of strain on the silicone couplers when the engine rocks back and forth. So not an optimal thing having the intercooler being braced by the charge pipes and turbo outlet.

I have good and bad news for you. They all do this, this is contrived issue that literally does not exist.

Originally Posted by F87source

Just because it is made in China doesn't mean it is totally bad, it depends on QC - look at apple and their products being made in China for example. And if there are defects Wagner has excellent warranty - and from what I have seen VRSF has not only terrible QC with users getting damaged products, but they also have horrific customer service (look at their previous gen charge pipes, they rubbed on the steering racks and caused damage and even formed holes on the pipe from abraision. The customer who reported this was instead blamed for this issue and told they had bad motor mounts and got zero help, not a good look in terms of customer service imo). They even blamed XPH about a warranty claim and thats why mike no longer sells VRSF... So not a good look imo.

VRSF customer service ‘exists’ and that’s about the best I can say about it, but their price AND performance more than make up for it.

If people don’t want to deal with VRSF, BMS is nearly identical and is almost as inexpensive.

There just really isn’t a justification to overpay for a Wagner product when objectively better options exist.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Read that thread again, the OP damaged a screw on removal and had to use a larger one.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...rcooler&page=2

You’ll note here that the provided screws are larger than stock (likely in case of the above scenario)

I have good and bad news for you. They all do this, this is contrived issue that literally does not exist.



Again, this is all wrong, I’ve explained it twice already. The Wagner Evo 3 is within 5lbs of the VRSF, and doesn’t cool down as quickly because to doesn’t have enough internal surface area for convection. It’s just not going to be as efficient as a Bar and Plate IC and the logs prove it.

Thermal momentum isn’t a thing at these weights either, as the VRSF never reaches its thermal capacity, and has enough surface area to bleed off heat.

Please see this TRACK and daily driving comparison of the Evo 2 vs the ATM. The ATM was 6lbs heavier (24lbs) than the Wagner Evo 2 (18lbs) and and had lower absolute temperatures, slower temperature increase and identical cooldown.

The street performance is indicative of track performance. the Evo 3 didn’t display any ability to disappate heat faster than the VRSF R, and that’s not going to change on the track.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971


Read that thread again, the OP damaged a screw on removal and had to use a larger one.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...rcooler&page=2

You’ll note here that the provided screws are larger than stock (likely in case of the above scenario)

I have good and bad news for you. They all do this, this is contrived issue that literally does not exist.



VRSF customer service ‘exists’ and that’s about the best I can say about it, but their price AND performance more than make up for it.

If people don’t want to deal with VRSF, BMS is nearly identical and is almost as inexpensive.

There just really isn’t a justification to overpay for a Wagner product when objectively better options exist.

No, that's exactly what I meant. The more you remove and reinstall the screw the great the chance the plastic will fail. Because these are self tapping coarse thread plastic screws not machine screws.



Not true, the charge pipes don't hold up the the intercooler or brace it in anyway. If you have that much tension in your charge pipe that it can be contributed to bracing the intercooler then the outlets are way too short. Even the stock setup had plenty of play where there was no tension on either charge pipe or turbo outlet even during engine movement and that's how it should be. Tension isn't a good thing to have on the charge pipes, because it's not going to stabilize the intercooler anymore than it already is as it slides into the guide rails on the radiator supports...


Thermal momentum and thermal intertia are a thing at any weight, if the material has a specific heat capacity it has thermal momentum. The difference is the bar design retains alot more heat vs. a hollow tube. So the fins have to disappate the heat from the bar before it can disappate heat from the intake air. That's what contributes to heat soak and what makes up the difference between an bar and plate vs a tube and fin intercooler. This is basic physics and is fact.

The reason why you don't see it in the Evo 2 is because of a few reasons:

1) imo the Evo 2 had atrocious fin density and that didn't help with the performance of the intercooler which was known to be poor.

2) at the smaller stepped core size there's not enough surface area to show a meaningful difference. If you don't have ideal conditions between tests with a high sample size the differences be too small to see.

3) with a larger intercooler that has significantly more surface area and mass, this will become more evident.




I agree with the bms statement, if you want better customer service go with bms, and I partially agree with the value vs. performance sentiment. But Like I said initially the reason why I didn't like the vrsf option was because of the removal of components to get it to fit, and the lack of proper supports. If we were to go that route id rather go with the Wagner which is a cleaner solution and is more geared for the track user.


Otherwise my preference would be an intercooler that is bolt in without having to remove anything. Like the d088 or csf, mounting still sucks, but still better than having to remove the brace. And if I need better cooling I'd rather add water injection than add a bunch of weight for a race core, remove bracing, and block extra air flow to the radiators behind it just for a marginal gain in thermal performance - which might not even stop timing pulls if it's hot enough ambient temp wise.


Oh yeah and before that I would run a more efficient turbo instead of ragging on a smaller hybrid turbo and pushing it so far out of its efficiency range iats become an issue.

[ZM2]

For me, none of this means anything until someone has logs of a VRSF R on a higher whp car and is pushing it on track lap after lap.

In the meantime, it’s all single pulls and science class talk.

[Info@mad-us.com]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The MAD Race was tested here, and we already reviewed the logs:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1909810&page=3

But I too would like to get an actually measurement of the fins and internal core.

Here is a photo of the front.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Info@mad-us.com

Here is a photo of the front.

Oh it has double stacked fins like bms. Very nice.

[Info@mad-us.com]

Originally Posted by F87source

Oh it has double stacked fins like bms. Very nice.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Info@mad-us.com

What I like about this design is that the fins can be solid and extremely strong while the secondary fins increase surface area, whereas with a louvered fin like the stock intercooler, the fins are very soft (as they have material removed for the louvers to increase surface area) and often get bent really easily.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

No, that's exactly what I meant. The more you remove and reinstall the screw the great the chance the plastic will fail. Because these are self tapping coarse thread plastic screws not machine screws.

Again, a contrived issue. No one is repeatedly reinstalling their ICs. And even if they were - you found one thread out of literally THOUSANDS of people who have installed an intercooler without issue.

And the issue n question was nothing to do with the IC, it was the OPs error which was corrected with proper bolts.

Originally Posted by F87source

Not true, the charge pipes don't hold up the the intercooler or brace it in anyway. If you have that much tension in your charge pipe that it can be contributed to bracing the intercooler then the outlets are way too short. Even the stock setup had plenty of play where there was no tension on either charge pipe or turbo outlet even during engine movement and that's how it should be. Tension isn't a good thing to have on the charge pipes, because it's not going to stabilize the intercooler anymore than it already is as it slides into the guide rails on the radiator supports...

This is also not correct- I'm 100% sure thejeremyman9 Documented his install of the VRSF race from the 5" version and noted that it was braced by the CP and TIC even after he removed the the mounts - and commented that it was especially snug.

Originally Posted by F87source

Thermal momentum and thermal intertia are a thing at any weight, if the material has a specific heat capacity it has thermal momentum. The difference is the bar design retains alot more heat vs. a hollow tube. So the fins have to disappate the heat from the bar before it can disappate heat from the intake air. That's what contributes to heat soak and what makes up the difference between an bar and plate vs a tube and fin intercooler. This is basic physics and is fact.

The reason why you don't see it in the Evo 2 is because of a few reasons:

1) imo the Evo 2 had atrocious fin density and that didn't help with the performance of the intercooler which was known to be poor.

2) at the smaller stepped core size there's not enough surface area to show a meaningful difference. If you don't have ideal conditions between tests with a high sample size the differences be too small to see.

3) with a larger intercooler that has significantly more surface area and mass, this will become more evident.

Yeah, all of this is wrong. The ATM actually has lower fin density than most ICs - it's 13fins/inch vs the Wagners 16-18fins. It's been verified here:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...9#post27433999

Again, this isn't MY opinion. You have all the evidence in front of you, in addition to all the logs.
Despite being Larger (the EVO 2 was 6" depth) having more surface area (16-18fin/inch vs 13) it literally got walked over in every performance metric because again, they do not have the internal surface area to transfer heat. I can provide the links again if necessary.

The Evo 3 is inferior to the VRSF race based on the logs here. I has higher absolute temps, and it doesn't dissipate heat as well because it's a function of the design.

Originally Posted by F87source

I agree with the bms statement, if you want better customer service go with bms, and I partially agree with the value vs. performance sentiment. But Like I said initially the reason why I didn't like the vrsf option was because of the removal of components to get it to fit, and the lack of proper supports. If we were to go that route id rather go with the Wagner which is a cleaner solution and is more geared for the track user.


Otherwise my preference would be an intercooler that is bolt in without having to remove anything. Like the d088 or csf, mounting still sucks, but still better than having to remove the brace. And if I need better cooling I'd rather add water injection than add a bunch of weight for a race core, remove bracing, and block extra air flow to the radiators behind it just for a marginal gain in thermal performance - which might not even stop timing pulls if it's hot enough ambient temp wise.


Oh yeah and before that I would run a more efficient turbo instead of ragging on a smaller hybrid turbo and pushing it so far out of its efficiency range iats become an issue.

you're so fixated on this brace and it literally does nothing. It will not objectively change the performance of the vehicle, and I wouldn't give up measurably superior IAT performance for keeping a brace.

Again, the Evo 3 requires you swap to the M235i brace, just like any other race core. This is (in my opinion) a silly objection.

I get married in 2 days, so ya'll play nice while I'm gone.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Again, a contrived issue. No one is repeatedly reinstalling their ICs. And even if they were - you found one thread out of literally THOUSANDS of people who have installed an intercooler without issue.

And the issue n question was nothing to do with the IC, it was the OPs error which was corrected with proper bolts.



This is also not correct- I'm 100% sure thejeremyman9 Documented his install of the VRSF race from the 5" version and noted that it was braced by the CP and TIC even after he removed the the mounts - and commented that it was especially snug.




Yeah, all of this is wrong. The ATM actually has lower fin density than most ICs - it's 13fins/inch vs the Wagners 16-18fins. It's been verified here:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...9#post27433999

Again, this isn't MY opinion. You have all the evidence in front of you, in addition to all the logs.
Despite being Larger (the EVO 2 was 6" depth) having more surface area (16-18fin/inch vs 13) it literally got walked over in every performance metric because again, they do not have the internal surface area to transfer heat. I can provide the links again if necessary.

The Evo 3 is inferior to the VRSF race based on the logs here. I has higher absolute temps, and it doesn't dissipate heat as well because it's a function of the design.



you're so fixated on this brace and it literally does nothing. It will not objectively change the performance of the vehicle, and I wouldn't give up measurably superior IAT performance for keeping a brace.

Again, the Evo 3 requires you swap to the M235i brace, just like any other race core. This is (in my opinion) a silly objection.

I get married in 2 days, so ya'll play nice while I'm gone.

1) Most people don't ever document failures on the forums, check the facebook groups they paint an entirely different picture - especially in regards to failures. For eg. you don't hear much about turbo failures or product issues on the forumns, maybe because not alot of people want to make a forum account. But you will see an entirely different scenario on facebook.

Also the people that do remove the intercooler frequently are the ones who flush coolant frequently, i.e. the track rats.


2) Yes I read his install post, and I saw when he said the intercooler was able to be supported via the pipes. But that is the stupidest way to support the intercooler for many reasons.

a) The first being, the cold side chargepipe is supported via the throttle body which is bolted into the intake manifold by 4 small bolts into plastic. This is the worst place to brace a 33 pound intercooler. The turbo inlet side is more sturdy because it bolts into the metal turbo, but the cold side is only held into the exhaust manifold by the center section and clamping area. You do not want to put excessive strain on the CHRA because that will damage the bearings and if you put enough strain where you physically damage the mount you can cause the exhaust turbine to hit the housing. Again a dumb way to mount an intercooler. And the only way to have it braced is if you have tension in the pipes, meaning no play. This makes any engine movement put massive strain on these components. Not to mention the C clips holding these pipes in.

b) On my car with the factory setup, when I slid the charge pipe and turbo outlet on and off the factory intercooler there was plenty of room for movement forward and back off the inlet and outlet of the intercooler showing there is plenty of play from the factory. So these pipes are not mean to be bracing the intercooler. If there is no movement, that means your intercooler inlet and outlet is probably too short causing tension to be present where it isn't supposed to be. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a fitment issue considering the brand and what I have heard about their products and defects.


3) Congratulations on your wedding.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by F87source

1) Most people don't ever document failures on the forums, check the facebook groups they paint an entirely different picture - especially in regards to failures. For eg. you don't hear much about turbo failures or product issues on the forumns, maybe because not alot of people want to make a forum account. But you will see an entirely different scenario on facebook.

Also the people that do remove the intercooler frequently are the ones who flush coolant frequently, i.e. the track rats.


2) Yes I read his install post, and I saw when he said the intercooler was able to be supported via the pipes. But that is the stupidest way to support the intercooler for many reasons.

a) The first being, the cold side chargepipe is supported via the throttle body which is bolted into the intake manifold by 4 small bolts into plastic. This is the worst place to brace a 33 pound intercooler. The turbo inlet side is more sturdy because it bolts into the metal turbo, but the cold side is only held into the exhaust manifold by the center section and clamping area. You do not want to put excessive strain on the CHRA because that will damage the bearings and if you put enough strain where you physically damage the mount you can cause the exhaust turbine to hit the housing. Again a dumb way to mount an intercooler. And the only way to have it braced is if you have tension in the pipes, meaning no play. This makes any engine movement put massive strain on these components. Not to mention the C clips holding these pipes in.

b) On my car with the factory setup, when I slid the charge pipe and turbo outlet on and off the factory intercooler there was plenty of room for movement forward and back off the inlet and outlet of the intercooler showing there is plenty of play from the factory. So these pipes are not mean to be bracing the intercooler. If there is no movement, that means your intercooler inlet and outlet is probably too short causing tension to be present where it isn't supposed to be. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a fitment issue considering the brand and what I have heard about their products and defects.


3) Congratulations on your wedding.

Amuro pointed me here because i dont see these tags apparently. Anyways, I'm not sure if you are talking about my install specifically, but i never said the IC is intended to be supported by the TIC and CP. Wherever you got that from is 100% taken out of context. The only thing i said when someone questioned using only two screws to hold the race was that its more than sufficient, and the IC is also connected to the CP and TIC, and "held up" by the shielding underneath. Don't botch the install or ruin your screw holes and you will be fine. I also made a comment about my CP connection when i was removing my 5'' to install the race. Namely, after i had disconnected the two screws and my TIC, and the IC was only connected to the CP, it was nearly IMPOSSIBLE for me to pull the IC off the CP connection. This was just because of the aftermarket Oring i had - clip was already removed, and it was just the oring fit holding the CP onto the IC with the IC still on the car, and i was twisting and pulling as hard as i could and it was extremely difficult to remove. Again, this has nothing to do with me saying the IC should be supported via the pipes.

Note if you have aftermarket TIC and CP however, and tight fitting Orings, they inevitably provide some level of "bracing" on the IC, even if the intent is not to use them to "support" the IC. The couplers only have minimal flex in them and most of the aftermarket pipes are metal (except a few that are hybrid silicone on part). Again the point isnt to actually support the IC, and there is no way they would do so if your screws are working properly. Everyone underestimates what the screws are capable of holding. Obviously, using the TIC and CP to support the IC without the screws in place or working as intended is not a good idea and no one is saying to do that. If what you are saying is truly a problem then every single person with metal CP/TIC with minimal flex in them is going to be putting excessive strain on all those components regardless of which IC they have since they are deviating from the OEM CP and TIC, which by design are not rigid. If the IC is mounted via the OEM screws and the TIC and CP are realtively rigid (as they are by nature of most aftermarket designs), then everyone would be having problems due to engine movement putting strain on things. So sure, you can say that the OEM pipes are designed to not put stress on anything when the engine moves, but you're basically implying there is a fundamental problem with the aftarmarket CP design if they dont allow sufficient flex when the engine moves on its mounts. This is indepdent of which IC you might be using. I havent personally seen how much the engine moves under load, but all the TIC and CP that use the same 1-coupler design have VERY little movement in them once installed, again regardless of IC.

Finally, I would note that all of your points about "bracing" the IC with the pipes and the strain it puts on other componeonts, etc, are ONLY true IF the IC is also rigidly mounted to the chasis. If for some reason someone was holding the IC in only via the TIC and CP, and the IC was not mounted via the OEM screws or otherwise to the chasis, then the IC would just move with the engine...

There's also discussion on removing a brace, but i assuming thats a 2-series thing, since i didnt need to modify to remove anything at all to fit in the race. I installed it from the bottom with the car on ramps.

These IC threads are so dumb it literally just turns into people arguging. I went through my own IC testing in my own car and upgraded from a 5'' to a race because of what i saw with the 5'' and how i drive my car. I don't care about this brand or that brand or which one is theorized to be the best so you all can continue to beat that dead horse all you want, but dont drag me into this and take anything i said out of context. I provided very basic gudiance to the OP in the other thread on f30 in terms of how to pick an appropriate IC size for his application, independent of brand, but have no intent of debating ICs any further.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Amuro pointed me here because i dont see these tags apparently. Anyways, I'm not sure if you are talking about my install specifically, but i never said the IC is intended to be supported by the TIC and CP. Wherever you got that from is 100% taken out of context. The only thing i said when someone questioned using only two screws to hold the race was that its more than sufficient, and the IC is also connected to the CP and TIC, and "held up" by the shielding underneath. Don't botch the install or ruin your screw holes and you will be fine. I also made a comment about my CP connection when i was removing my 5'' to install the race. Namely, after i had disconnected the two screws and my TIC, and the IC was only connected to the CP, it was nearly IMPOSSIBLE for me to pull the IC off the CP connection. This was just because of the aftermarket Oring i had - clip was already removed, and it was just the oring fit holding the CP onto the IC with the IC still on the car, and i was twisting and pulling as hard as i could and it was extremely difficult to remove. Again, this has nothing to do with me saying the IC should be supported via the pipes.

Note if you have aftermarket TIC and CP however, and tight fitting Orings, they inevitably provide some level of "bracing" on the IC, even if the intent is not to use them to "support" the IC. The couplers only have minimal flex in them and most of the aftermarket pipes are metal (except a few that are hybrid silicone on part). Again the point isnt to actually support the IC, and there is no way they would do so if your screws are working properly. Everyone underestimates what the screws are capable of holding. Obviously, using the TIC and CP to support the IC without the screws in place or working as intended is not a good idea and no one is saying to do that. If what you are saying is truly a problem then every single person with metal CP/TIC with minimal flex in them is going to be putting excessive strain on all those components regardless of which IC they have since they are deviating from the OEM CP and TIC, which by design are not rigid. If the IC is mounted via the OEM screws and the TIC and CP are realtively rigid (as they are by nature of most aftermarket designs), then everyone would be having problems due to engine movement putting strain on things. So sure, you can say that the OEM pipes are designed to not put stress on anything when the engine moves, but you're basically implying there is a fundamental problem with the aftarmarket CP design if they dont allow sufficient flex when the engine moves on its mounts. This is indepdent of which IC you might be using. I havent personally seen how much the engine moves under load, but all the TIC and CP that use the same 1-coupler design have VERY little movement in them once installed, again regardless of IC.

Finally, I would note that all of your points about "bracing" the IC with the pipes and the strain it puts on other componeonts, etc, are ONLY true IF the IC is also rigidly mounted to the chasis. If for some reason someone was holding the IC in only via the TIC and CP, and the IC was not mounted via the OEM screws or otherwise to the chasis, then the IC would just move with the engine...

There's also discussion on removing a brace, but i assuming thats a 2-series thing, since i didnt need to modify to remove anything at all to fit in the race. I installed it from the bottom with the car on ramps.

These IC threads are so dumb it literally just turns into people arguging. I went through my own IC testing in my own car and upgraded from a 5'' to a race because of what i saw with the 5'' and how i drive my car. I don't care about this brand or that brand or which one is theorized to be the best so you all can continue to beat that dead horse all you want, but dont drag me into this and take anything i said out of context. I provided very basic gudiance to the OP in the other thread on f30 in terms of how to pick an appropriate IC size for his application, independent of brand, but have no intent of debating ICs any further.

1) I didn't say you said that the intercooler was supposed to be held in via the charge pipes. I was replying to Amuro saying the intercooler was braced via the pipes and that is not the case unless there was high amounts of tension in said pipes. Sure the intercooler pipes can hold it up, but that is not what you want to rely upon.


Also plastic self tapping screws don't have a "specific install procedure" eventually they will strip because they're self tapping they're not machine screws. Yes plastic self tapping screws can hold 80 lbs per screw, but the wear factor negates that.


2) That is a fundamental issue with fully solid TIC pipes, the lack of movement and the strain it puts on the components when it moves. I have seen after market charge pipes with the silicone couplers and stock o-ring provide enough flex in the coupler and enough mobility in the connection point that it is not an issue. But with the short TIC pipes or use of larger O-rings that provide immense rigidity this is a problem. These connections are not supposed to be absolutely solid, they need to have a bit of movement in it, because under high load the engine does move enough to warrant concern. That's why bmw put in the accordian section in the oem chargepipe, to allow for some flex, and that's why the the TIC pipe is made of reinforced rubber. Because these components need to allow some movement, and smaller aftermarket companies that buy from Chinese suppliers tend not to do the engineering to acomodate for this - they only care about fitment and price. This is why companies like D088 who put real engineering into their products and real testing do not use solid TIC pipes. (BTW they have also flow tested their chargepipes to ensure it out flows factory, and they have CFD data on their intercoolers showing laminar air flow out of the inlets and outlets - this means a boundary layer of near static air will form near the walls of the pipe providing excellent thermal insulation - and that is in response to our discussion before about the insulating properties of air within the pipe itself) I have taken observations of this when moving to a metal charge pipe.

3) If the intercooler were to be unbolted do to mishaps or bolt failure, having 33 lbs hanging off the turbo and throttle body is not ideal.


4) The brace is m2 specific, it wasn't designed for larger intercoolers because it was taken off the F8X.


5) I wasn't here to argue about performance, I was here to say I don't like how all these after market intercoolers are mounted. I also never dragged you here or took you out of context - that was Amuro who brought you in here and said the pipes braced the intercooler and I only responded.


Overall thanks for the data you contribute it is interesting, keep it up.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I get married in 2 days, so ya'll play nice while I'm gone.

Congrats

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by F87source

1) I didn't say you said that the intercooler was supposed to be held in via the charge pipes. I was replying to Amuro saying the intercooler was braced via the pipes and that is not the case unless there was high amounts of tension in said pipes. Sure the intercooler pipes can hold it up, but that is not what you want to rely upon.


Also plastic self tapping screws don't have a "specific install procedure" eventually they will strip because they're self tapping they're not machine screws. Yes plastic self tapping screws can hold 80 lbs per screw, but the wear factor negates that.


2) That is a fundamental issue with fully solid TIC pipes, the lack of movement and the strain it puts on the components when it moves. I have seen after market charge pipes with the silicone couplers and stock o-ring provide enough flex in the coupler and enough mobility in the connection point that it is not an issue. But with the short TIC pipes or use of larger O-rings that provide immense rigidity this is a problem. These connections are not supposed to be absolutely solid, they need to have a bit of movement in it, because under high load the engine does move enough to warrant concern. That's why bmw put in the accordian section in the oem chargepipe, to allow for some flex, and that's why the the TIC pipe is made of reinforced rubber. Because these components need to allow some movement, and smaller aftermarket companies that buy from Chinese suppliers tend not to do the engineering to acomodate for this - they only care about fitment and price. This is why companies like D088 who put real engineering into their products and real testing do not use solid TIC pipes. (BTW they have also flow tested their chargepipes to ensure it out flows factory, and they have CFD data on their intercoolers showing laminar air flow out of the inlets and outlets - this means a boundary layer of near static air will form near the walls of the pipe providing excellent thermal insulation - and that is in response to our discussion before about the insulating properties of air within the pipe itself) I have taken observations of this when moving to a metal charge pipe.

3) If the intercooler were to be unbolted do to mishaps or bolt failure, having 33 lbs hanging off the turbo and throttle body is not ideal.


4) The brace is m2 specific, it wasn't designed for larger intercoolers because it was taken off the F8X.


5) I wasn't here to argue about performance, I was here to say I don't like how all these after market intercoolers are mounted. I also never dragged you here or took you out of context - that was Amuro who brought you in here and said the pipes braced the intercooler and I only responded.


Overall thanks for the data you contribute it is interesting, keep it up.

In your post above you did say "2) Yes I read his install post, and I saw when he said the intercooler was able to be supported via the pipes. But that is the stupidest way to support the intercooler for many reasons." which was referring back to Amuro tagging me and my post apparently. But like i posted above, that's not what i was saying.

I personally didnt experience any signs of wear on the screws into plastic, but of course YMMV if you are not careful on install. The screws should in theory screw into the same grooves every single time you take them in and out, rather than "retapping" the plastic if that makes sense, as the latter would certainly make them weaker over time. I've taken these screws in and out more than 5x on my car do IC removal/reinstall.

Also to clarify, i only ran the Orings when i needed them. I actually had to go back to OEM oring on the CP side when i switched to the race since it was impossible to use a bigger one. Comes down to fitment and QC on the IC outlet and CP to see what you can/need to use.

As i said above i dont disagree that BMW intentionally designed the TIC and CP to be flexable to allow for engine movment. Same thing with the turbo inlet design, actually. So i guess all those people running solid metal inlets might have a problem too, right? Point is, while we are deviating from BMW OEM design with less flexable aftermarket parts, its only speculation as to whether its actually a problem in the long term.

[Sundinisagod]

Originally Posted by Shihab97_F87

Noted. I think I'll go with the VRSF Competition 6.5". Do you know if this will fit without any cutting or removing parts? I read that some people needed to remove the front brace…

I just watched a YouTube installation video of what I believe to be the VRSF Competition intercooler and there was no removal of the front brace involved. You can find it by searching for videos by Daily Downshift on YouTube. Also I’ve seen him post on this forum under the same name so you could try confirming this with him.

[motivman]

best intercooler for F series is the VRSF RACE intercooler