[Shihab97_F87]

Originally Posted by F87source

I agree, but I would get a fitting intercooler. I think CTS has a high fin density race intercooler that fits the m2 without having to make changes. Wagner's evo 3 is also very good as per ZM2 and a few others who reported good results (and these guys have heavily tuned m2's that are tracked), and comes with amazing hardware to properly support such a large intercooler.

Corrosion due to methanol isn't a concern imo (oil dilution is a larger factor), the concern is the safety systems of the meth kit and imo literally all but 2 meth kits on the market are insufficent in this regard, and of course how you vent the meth tank so you don't breathe the fumes in.


So if you are concerned with meth, I would run distilled water injection - that removes the concern of corrosion and oil dilution, however you still need good safety systems so you don't cause hydro lock or knocking.

Distilled water injection is definitely next on my list Thanks!

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Shihab97_F87

Distilled water injection is definitely next on my list Thanks!

Np, just make sure you use a good meth controller to control the spraying - you want to make sure the controller is truly progressive and not just boost vs. rpm based, you want to make sure it pwms a fast acting valve and not just a standard slow solenoid, you also want to make sure safety systems are very good (monitors flow, pump current, valve status, and fluid level etc), and make sure the hardware is good so there will not be any leaks and the water spray is very well atomized (cheap nozzles don't do this well), and finally make sure you get some filters.


Oh yeah the water tank should be baffled too if you want to track the car, because high G forces can starve the pump when the water level is low. This means even if you still have water in the tank, it won't be able to spray because the water is being pushed by the G forces away from the pump pick up

[Shihab97_F87]

Originally Posted by F87source

Np, just make sure you use a good meth controller to control the spraying - you want to make sure the controller is truly progressive and not just boost vs. rpm based, you want to make sure it pwms a fast acting valve and not just a standard slow solenoid, you also want to make sure safety systems are very good (monitors flow, pump current, valve status etc), and make sure the hardware is good so there will not be any leaks and the water spray is very well atomized (cheap nozzles don't do this well), and finally make sure you get some filters.

The two companies that I've seen are snow performance and Aquamist. Would you recommend either of these, or would you recommend another brand?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Shihab97_F87

The two companies that I've seen are snow performance and Aquamist. Would you recommend either of these, or would you recommend another brand?

I'm not going to talk bad about other companies but imo, the only two good meth controllers on the market that I have seen proven results from are: aquamist and torqbyte (cm5 Lts), these controllers are truly progressive and have the aforementioned failsafes (the torqbyte is a bit more technologically advanced through, but requires alot more work to dial in, but at the end of the day the aquamist is still just as good). However where things differ is with hardware, torqbyte only sells the controller you have to buy the hardware separate, with aquamist you get the hardware too - and imo aquamist has the best hardware in the entire meth injection business by far. Their nickle compression fitting (imo way better than stupid push lock fittings) is insanely good and I have never seen their revised fittings leak ever, their nozzles imo offer unparalleled atomization vs. competitors as it doesn't just force water through a small hole, but it has a spiral cut out to force water in different directions, and it has filters built into each jet. Their tanks are very nice as well and have excellent baffling. I literally can't say enough good about the aquamist system as a whole.


So yeah I'd recommend aquamist 100%, unless you have a really complex system like if you want dual fast acting valves so the second one will spray the intercooler or radiators, and if you want dual pumps then you'd have to go with torqbyte which will be able to controll all of that, otherwise for a simple multi nozzle single fast acting valve setup it's better to go aquamist imo.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

I agree, but I would get a fitting intercooler. I think CTS has a high fin density race intercooler that fits the m2 without having to make changes. Wagner's evo 3 is also very good as per ZM2 and a few others who reported good results (and these guys have heavily tuned m2's that are tracked), and comes with amazing hardware to properly support such a large intercooler.

None of this is correct. The CTS doesn’t have an upgrade fin pack from what I’ve seen (at 14/fins inch) and it’s over 11” tall and would require the removal of the brace as well.

Here is the thread on the Wagner Evo 3 - it requires the removal of the brace AND additional trimming.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1727351

I already gave my thoughts on the EVO 3 in another thread:

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

FYI, the Evo 3 is not ‘the best’ but it’s a good package. Because of the design of Tube and Fin coolers, they are less effective in the same size package as a bar and plate intercooler.

The Evo 1 and 2 are handily outperformed by intercoolers the same size or smaller. Part of the reason for this is that intercooler transfer heat through convention and convection.

With Tube and fin, there just isn’t as much internal surface area to transfer the heat from the incoming gasses to the core. This is also the reason everyone claims they have ‘no lag’ with a Wagner IC. On the dyno, that lower internal restriction was worth 1whp at peak, so not a huge deal, and as most people in this thread will tell you, they don’t have added lag with their Race intercoolers.

On a bar and plate intercoolers actually have more material to transfer heat, not just internally, but also on the actual ends of the charge rows.

In terms of lighter weight just means less thermal capacity, but I’m pretty sure Evo 3 isn’t lighter than a VRSF-R. I weighed my VRSF, and it was about 33lbs. I believe the Evo3 is actually more.

I do like the EVO3’s package though, it has a upper shroud, comes with the TIC and chargepipe too. I also like that they typically (from what I hear) have good QC

Originally Posted by F87source

Corrosion due to methanol isn't a concern imo (oil dilution is a larger factor), the concern is the safety systems of the meth kit and imo literally all but 2 meth kits on the market are insufficent in this regard, and of course how you vent the meth tank so you don't breathe the fumes in.

So if you are concerned with meth, I would run distilled water injection - that removes the concern of corrosion and oil dilution, however you still need good safety systems so you don't cause hydro lock or knocking.

If you plan on doing WMI you can get away with a smaller core, but I wouldn’t. A PS2 generates substantial heat, you’re just not going to do yourselves any favors with something smaller. If you’re going through the trouble of paying all this money for a new turbo and tune, don’t you want the power you paid for?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

None of this is correct. The CTS doesn’t have an upgrade fin pack from what I’ve seen (at 14/fins inch) and it’s over 11” tall and would require the removal of the brace as well.

Here is the thread on the Wagner Evo 3 - it requires the removal of the brace AND additional trimming.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1727351

I already gave my thoughts on the EVO 3 in another thread:







If you plan on doing WMI you can get away with a smaller core, but I wouldn’t. A PS2 generates substantial heat, you’re just not going to do yourselves any favors with something smaller. If you’re going through the trouble of paying all this money for a new turbo and tune, don’t you want the power you paid for?

Evo 3 is 30.5lbs, plus a cpl lbs savings in the vented crash bumper.

The M235i brace is used, and the bottom portion of the M2 brace is reused.

No lag, mounts solidly to the crash bumper, comes with all the pipes.

It averaged 20-25F above ambient for me on the track during back to back laps over the weekend on a 490whp car.

So far, I haven’t seen real on track data from anyone with as much whp that presents a better IC package.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

None of this is correct. The CTS doesn’t have an upgrade fin pack from what I’ve seen (at 14/fins inch) and it’s over 11” tall and would require the removal of the brace as well.

Here is the thread on the Wagner Evo 3 - it requires the removal of the brace AND additional trimming.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1727351

I already gave my thoughts on the EVO 3 in another thread:







If you plan on doing WMI you can get away with a smaller core, but I wouldn’t. A PS2 generates substantial heat, you’re just not going to do yourselves any favors with something smaller. If you’re going through the trouble of paying all this money for a new turbo and tune, don’t you want the power you paid for?

Oops my bad, I didn't recall the evo 3 requiring the brace to be removed, I just remembered that they supplied a new crash beam.


I am not sure what the CTS IC requires to be removed, but they listed m2 compatability, but if it does hit the brace then yeah it would need to be removed...



But at some point, when running in extremely hot ambient temperatures even a race core intercooler and its low temperature delta will not be enough. Say a race core can keep the iat delta at 10C, then at 35C ambient temps your iats will be at 45C and that will still mean timing is pulled. So there is a point of diminishing returns between just packing a massive intercooler and the amount of iat supression you get not being worth it anymore. At some point it would be more effective to go with a smaller intercooler like a csf or D088 and pair it with water injection. This way you don't pack a bunch of weight and block air flow to the radiator for minisucle iat gains. When ambient temps get hot enough, the better solution would be water injection the m4 gts follows this trend. Even better would be to utilize E85 and its evaporative cooling effect, this way despite the higher iats you can still force the car to run full timing without issue.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Evo 3 is 30.5lbs, plus a cpl lbs savings in the vented crash bumper.

The M235i brace is used, and the bottom portion of the M2 brace is reused.

No lag, mounts solidly to the crash bumper, comes with all the pipes.

It averaged 20-25F above ambient for me on the track during back to back laps over the weekend on a 490whp car.

So far, I haven’t seen real on track data from anyone with as much whp that presents a better IC package.

Interesting, how were your track results btw? Is overheating still an issue?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Evo 3 is 30.5lbs, plus a cpl lbs savings in the vented crash bumper.

The M235i brace is used, and the bottom portion of the M2 brace is reused.

No lag, mounts solidly to the crash bumper, comes with all the pipes.

It averaged 20-25F above ambient for me on the track during back to back laps over the weekend on a 490whp car.

So far, I haven’t seen real on track data from anyone with as much whp that presents a better IC package.

How big is your sample size? I only know of you tracking your car with an upgraded turbo.

But here is a 2 gear run (3rd and 4th) VRSF - ZERO IAT deviation.

Originally Posted by motivman

no worries. Been really testing this stage 2+ E30 map on pure stage 2 turbo, and I think the perfect Ethanol mix to get perfect logs is between 40-45%, anything higher, and I see either random timing drops or positive STFTs.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=623c...90c67b39af31dd

FYI I plotted this in VD, and it’s 530whp. Nothing in this log, or any other shows that they can’t shed heat. The best I’ve seen is 5F over ambient with a gold foil wrapped Charge Pipe, otherwise most Race ICs are 10F above ambient during a pull

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by F87source

Interesting, how were your track results btw? Is overheating still an issue?

Was actually having DCT temp issues bc it seems like air or a blockage or something else is happening in my DCT cooling loop (no codes, works fine on the street, no shifting issues, gradual temp increase to 260F while DCT cooler was cold to the touch), so didn’t get to fully stress test the cooling system. The tune logs looked beautiful otherwise, tho.

Should be able to figure out what’s up with the car next week so can get her back on track.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

How big is your sample size? I only know of you tracking your car with an upgraded turbo.

But here is a 2 gear run (3rd and 4th) VRSF - ZERO IAT deviation.

What was his ambient temps? Because his iat was only 20C which would indicate it was a cooler day and that doesn't put much stress on heat exchangers.

Originally Posted by ZM2

Was actually having DCT temp issues bc it seems like air or a blockage or something else is happening in my DCT cooling loop (no codes, works fine on the street, no shifting issues, gradual temp increase to 260F while DCT cooler was cold to the touch), so didn’t get to fully stress test the cooling system. The tune logs looked beautiful otherwise, tho.

Should be able to figure out what’s up with the car next week so can get her back on track.

That's strange, iirc these cars have DCT filters so you probably should check that and change it if you have not done so - as it could be clogged. Those things can get quite grimy over time due to the metallic particles produced by the dct.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

How big is your sample size? I only know of you tracking your car with an upgraded turbo.

But here is a 2 gear run (3rd and 4th) VRSF - ZERO IAT deviation.

That’s actually pretty easy to accomplish. The Evo3 has no temp increase in 3/4 and only a cpl degrees in 5th on my car.

I haven’t seen anyone with VRSF R track data on a high whp car, but with as hard I push the car I wouldn’t want that 33lb brick only held by the bottom bolts around the track.

And, single pulls are one thing, track time temp stress is another.

All this being said, I’m sure it’s good bang for the buck for a street IC.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by F87source

What was his ambient temps? Because his iat was only 20C which would indicate it was a cooler day and that doesn't put much stress on heat exchangers.


That's strange, iirc these cars have DCT filters so you probably should check that and change it if you have not done so - as it could be clogged. Those things can get quite grimy over time due to the metallic particles produced by the dct.

Definitely on the list to check. I only could get my hands on DCT fluid over the weekend to flush and not filters, and that didn’t improve things.

Will find out what’s up tho!

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

but with as hard I push the car I wouldn’t want that 33lb brick only held by the bottom bolts around the track.

And, single pulls are one thing, track time temp stress is another.

This is what I wanted to get into as well:

1) Despite self tapping screws that go into plastic (like what holds up the intercooler) being quite strong and capable of holding up to 80ish pounds per screw, I wouldn't like to trust that either. Because the more you remove and reinstall those screws the weaker those plastic threads get and that is sketchy. I am planning on extra supports on my bms intercooler just in case, even though it is not that heavy and I don't track anymore.

2) Exactly track stress is a different thing, the low speed scenarios where air flow is limited is a real killer as heat soak built up in those scenarios may not have enough time to disspate when you're on the straights - especially if it is a low speed track. This is why alot of track guys like tube and fin intercoolers with high surface area, sure it heats up quicker but it also cools down quicker too. Higher mass bar and plate coolers is not always the answer, it might do well for single pull drag racers, but it is a problem for track guys especially if the mass is extremely high.

Originally Posted by ZM2

Definitely on the list to check. I only could get my hands on DCT fluid over the weekend to flush and not filters, and that didn’t improve things.

Will find out what’s up tho!

Yeah hopefully you can figure it out! But defintely try filters next.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

ThatÂ’s actually pretty easy to accomplish. The Evo3 has no temp increase in 3/4 and only a cpl degrees in 5th on my car.

I havenÂ’t seen anyone with VRSF R track data on a high whp car, but with as hard I push the car I wouldnÂ’t want that 33lb brick only held by the bottom bolts around the track.

And, single pulls are one thing, track time temp stress is another.

Has anyone had an IC mount failure? IÂ’ve seen this thrown around a lot, and I know a few people who have run the RACE cores on the F and E chassis, and never know of a failure.

It’s also silly - the CSF is 27lbs and comes with the worst mounting of all the cores here - that’s not taxing on the mounts, but 5lbs extra is? It’s overblown to the point of ridiculousness.

To the second part - OpS logs in this thread show clear IAT movement

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1727351 - compared to the VRSF logs in similar conditions

https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9

The Wagner is a nice product, but nothing I’ve seen shows it’s better than a Bar and Plate Core.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Has anyone had an IC mount failure? IÂ’ve seen this thrown around a lot, and I know a few people who have run the RACE cores on the F and E chassis, and never know of a failure.

It’s also silly - the CSF is 27lbs and comes with the worst mounting of all the cores here - that’s not taxing on the mounts, but 5lbs extra is? It’s overblown to the point of ridiculousness.

To the second part - OpS logs in this thread show clear IAT movement

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1727351 - compared to the VRSF logs in similar conditions

https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9

The Wagner is a nice product, but nothing I’ve seen shows it’s better than a Bar and Plate Core.

Personally I've complained about the CSF mounting as well... I think all intercoolers no matter the size should have the additional mounts to the bumper bar support area like the ER intercooler.


In regards to the wagner, that's because there has been no data displayed about the ability to shed heat, and physics would back the fact that a lower mass object of the same material will lose heat faster. This is what makes the wagner intercooler so good, it is able to keep up with the larger high mass bar and plate intercoolers (which have very high mass make them heat up slower) over single pulls yet it still utilizes a tube and fin intercooler (which is known to heat up faster yet in these tests is still performs just as good as the VRSF) designed to shed heat fast and not retain a bunch of thermal energy like a bar and plate intercooler would. This makes it more ideal for track use.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Has anyone had an IC mount failure? IÂ’ve seen this thrown around a lot, and I know a few people who have run the RACE cores on the F and E chassis, and never know of a failure.

It’s also silly - the CSF is 27lbs and comes with the worst mounting of all the cores here - that’s not taxing on the mounts, but 5lbs extra is? It’s overblown to the point of ridiculousness.

To the second part - OpS logs in this thread show clear IAT movement

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1727351 - compared to the VRSF logs in similar conditions

https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9

The Wagner is a nice product, but nothing I’ve seen shows it’s better than a Bar and Plate Core.

Umm, he was doing 3-4-5-6 gear pulls in the desert with ambient >95F, and temps only started to slightly rise in the top of 5th/going into 6th. Gonna say that’s not the best case for making your point.

Until I see someone log a VRSF R on track with >475whp, still gonna say I haven’t seen anything perform better than my Evo3.

[6speed_M2]

If cost wasn't a concern or cutting/trimming the bumper, I would do the Wagner Evo III. Go big or go home.

I'm a believer in the quality of Wagner's products and R&D. The intercooler has the front brace which I like, it's absolutely massive, doesn't weigh too much from what I've heard & it comes with chargepipes.

[Wolfman’s Brother]

Hey look it’s all my favorite bp heads in the same thread again.

You guys are the best.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Definitely on the list to check. I only could get my hands on DCT fluid over the weekend to flush and not filters, and that didn’t improve things.

Will find out what’s up tho!

This is what the job looks like if you're interested:

It defintely doesn't look fun and there is alot of stuff to remove... I'm glad I have a 6mt especially after looking at this job.


This would probably be an optimal time to get a billet dct cover if you wanted one, it will expand the capacity of the dct which will help with prolonging the time it take to heat up and the aluminium covers have fins to disapate heat.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by F87source

This is what the job looks like if you're interested:

It defintely doesn't look fun and there is alot of stuff to remove... I'm glad I have a 6mt especially after looking at this job.


This would probably be an optimal time to get a billet dct cover if you wanted one, it will expand the capacity of the dct which will help with prolonging the time it take to heat up and the aluminium covers have fins to disapate heat.

I’ve bought all the filters. Where can I get the billet pan? Thx!

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I’ve bought all the filters. Where can I get the billet pan? Thx!

I'll pm you so we don't clog up the thread