[DanG]

Originally Posted by M3GymNut

Well then I guess the actions of those other individuals will show their true colors. That's exactly why this world is the way it is. No matter what anybody says there's always criticism that leads to hate and being cynical when it should just end on agreeing to disagree.

I think you are right. I definitely disagree with you but I have not or will not spread hate. Some people here just get a little carried away with their opinions.

[tranck]

Originally Posted by DanG

I think you are right. I definitely disagree with you but I have not or will not spread hate. Some people here just get a little carried away with their opinions.

I'm guilty as charged.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Yup.

I generally agree with much of the list he had, but the thing about a shorter wheelbase being bad is a head scratcher.

Yes, you can absolutely have a wheelbase that is too short resulting in twitchy and unstable handling, but the 3-series/4-series is nowhere near that point yet. It has the opposite problem. Having a shorter wheelbase leaves the 2-series feeling a lot more nimble despite weighing the same as the 4-series.

I went to the BMW m performance track driving school thing in Thermal with a guy I know with an f80 zcp. First time I drove an m4 for extended period and first time he drove the m2 extended period.

After the day he and another f80 owner felt the m4 was better and more stable than the m2c we drove on the same course.

I felt the m2c was better because it was more nimble and more controllable when the rear starts to rotate. They didn't agree because the m4 was more stable. To me the m4 made me nervous when the back started to move. The m2 felt more playful.

Maybe it just came down to what we were used to in our own cars.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

The car is like a black hole. A tiny but MASSIVE car At the same time.

Yeah it's like a nimble bowling ball or tank.

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by seis-speed

I have owned both and weighed both, the 1M is about 150lbs lighter than the M2.

You own both cars, is your 1M not lighter in Europe?
Never trust BMW on weights. On BMW USA they had the OG DCT weighing less than the 6MT. I even contacted them about the mistake and it was never addressed.

I recently parked my 1M near an M2 comp and everyone was surprised how much smaller the 1M was, it is fairly significant in person. The 1M just feels much smaller and lighter.

It is. The Weight recently reported is excluding some standard 'options' that you have to buy on a 2 series so you'll never get that weight. That's the trick they pulled with the G20. The chassis weighs less, but you cannot buy a G20 that weighs less than an F30

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

So how come the platform that bmw has had focus it o dedicate and build from scratch (f80/82) those cars are great speed missiles admittedly by car experts, but they are not touted as fun to drive as this afterthought of a chassis the f87?

I think i remmeber someone saying that M cars were more about handling than power,


(I think most ppl are more dazzled by just having the official stamp of M car, with the luxury interior and bells and whistles, than treating these cars as performance driver cars)

To answer the OP, if bmw themselves gave the M2 more respect in official literature and releases, M owners would too, but most ppl are followers and need to be told what to like rather than base it on their own opinions

M4:
3540-3610 lbs
Power: 425hp
P:W ratio: 8.5
Nurburgring: 7:52

M2 Comp
3480-3540 lbs
Power: 405
P:W ratio: 8.6
Nurburgring: 7:52.3

And this is before you give the M4 the weight loss and suspension upgrades of the competition that the M2 C has. I can't find a ring time but I'm sure it's faster than the M2 C.

When I was shopping M cars the salemen reassured me that the M2 'is our sportiest car in the line up'. Of course I knew better but small=faster is the Intuitive Logic most ignorant customers approach the question with.

Yet in reality
M5
4300 lbs
Power: 617 hp
P:W ratio: 6.9
Ring time: 7:38

There is far more to setting a car up to go fast than dimensions. M5 is going to smoke an M2 in corners and on straights. Rumors are the M8 is sub 7:30. Granted the M2 is old and due to be replaced and the M8 is brand new.

The main point I'm trying to make is M2 is inferior in its design to M4. Its materials are cheaper and it's inherently slower due to its small size. The M4 is a superior vehicle given the same weight.

If BMW had planned and made a 3100 lbs M2 with 405 hp? This would be a different conversation becuase then it'd have the strengths of small size to make up for the weaknesses.

[medphysdave]

I'd like to see the m5 "smoke" an m2 in the corners. Straights, yes, and nurburgring is where that grunt lowers lap times. Hockenheim is a better demonstration of cornering ability, but even it has a couple good straight runs. Maybe the short track would show cornering comparison. M5 has massive power and awd to pull out of corners, but I question if it has higher Apex speed. I would think it would be lower.

[Tiss'er]

"The M4 is a superior vehicle given the same weight. "


Except in base form for both the M2 and M4, the M2 was faster around Willow Springs in the hands of Randy Pobst with 60 less HP.

I haven't seen a similar comparison with the M2C and M4C but to bet it would have a similar result, and that is factoring in that BMW is neutering the S55 in the M2C

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by Tiss'er

"The M4 is a superior vehicle given the same weight. "


Except in base form for both the M2 and M4, the M2 was faster around Willow Springs in the hands of Randy Pobst with 60 less HP.

I haven't seen a similar comparison with the M2C and M4C but to bet it would have a similar result, and that is factoring in that BMW is neutering the S55 in the M2C

Not necessarily Neutering it. BMW likes to have the same bmw 'feel' across the line ups. My guess is the M2 with a lot of HP becomes pretty squirrelly so they dialed it back to keep it in control.

[Tiss'er]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

Not necessarily Neutering it. BMW likes to have the same bmw 'feel' across the line ups. My guess is the M2 with a lot of HP becomes pretty squirrelly so they dialed it back to keep it in control.

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

Not necessarily Neutering it. BMW likes to have the same bmw 'feel' across the line ups. My guess is the M2 with a lot of HP becomes pretty squirrelly so they dialed it back to keep it in control.

Possibly, however I suspect it is more to keep the M2C in its place in the BMW food chain. Kinda like putting the N55 in the OG. Another 40HP and proper tires on the M2C would make it a very solid contender. I guess we will see when the CS comes out.

[OG Shark]

I think it's just a strange phenomenon that hits every M owner immediately upon entering the car... The driver's reaction to it seems to be based on which model they have... Here's what happens to me in my different cars...

In my OG LCI M2 - "Hey other ///M owners - look at me I have an ///M too! Its super cool and sporty! It's soooo well balanced and fun to drive - hey wait why are you driving away so much faster than me????"

In my E92 M3 - (as I look at any non-S65 blessed ///M) - "I obviously have taste and style - clearly more than any non-S65 ///M's. So what if I don't have things like "torque" or "nimbleness" - it clearly makes up for it in its willingness to rev and the glorious soundtrack of the gods that it produces. You S55 guys think you are so cool with your "torque" and "being fast" - at least my car doesn't sound like it is farting."

In my wife's F85 X5M - "Yes it is an ///M. Really, I promise - it is an ///M. You better call it an ///M too - I way overpaid for this thing to have that damn ///M badge on the back! Oh wow, look at that M2 owner over there - I bet he thinks he's the real ///M owner. Clearly he can't be if he paid that little for the car. Even better - I think it's an OG with an N55!!!! Silly OG M2 owner - real ///M's have 'S' engines! Hold on kids - we got to show this guy what an ///M really is!!!"


I just think it's a part of being an M owner - kind of a natural evolution of classism sort of thing.

[Yvette]

Bmw M marketing is so successful

[RocketTR]

Originally Posted by Yvette

Bmw M marketing is so successful

Except when they start slapping M badges on all of their non-M cars. That just dilutes the M brand and makes it, well, less special. I don't want to say meaningless, but I guess it could eventually get to that point.

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by RocketTR

Except when they start slapping M badges on all of their non-M cars. That just dilutes the M brand and makes it, well, less special. I don't want to say meaningless, but I guess it could eventually get to that point.

It does diminish what once was special...

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

I think it's just a strange phenomenon that hits every M owner immediately upon entering the car... The driver's reaction to it seems to be based on which model they have... Here's what happens to me in my different cars...

In my OG LCI M2 - "Hey other ///M owners - look at me I have an ///M too! Its super cool and sporty! It's soooo well balanced and fun to drive - hey wait why are you driving away so much faster than me????"

In my E92 M3 - (as I look at any non-S65 blessed ///M) - "I obviously have taste and style - clearly more than any non-S65 ///M's. So what if I don't have things like "torque" or "nimbleness" - it clearly makes up for it in its willingness to rev and the glorious soundtrack of the gods that it produces. You S55 guys think you are so cool with your "torque" and "being fast" - at least my car doesn't sound like it is farting."

In my wife's F85 X5M - "Yes it is an ///M. Really, I promise - it is an ///M. You better call it an ///M too - I way overpaid for this thing to have that damn ///M badge on the back! Oh wow, look at that M2 owner over there - I bet he thinks he's the real ///M owner. Clearly he can't be if he paid that little for the car. Even better - I think it's an OG with an N55!!!! Silly OG M2 owner - real ///M's have 'S' engines! Hold on kids - we got to show this guy what an ///M really is!!!"


I just think it's a part of being an M owner - kind of a natural evolution of classism sort of thing.

Well I think a good chunk of it is just bias of the owner sure.

I've only ever heard praise for the M2, In Fact I'm probably one of the few who criticizes it. Usually I see 'M2 is the only good car in the whole line up'.

Also, I'll just say, Torque is nice but also can make driving a car a real challenge.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

M4:
3540-3610 lbs
Power: 425hp
P:W ratio: 8.5
Nurburgring: 7:52

M2 Comp
3480-3540 lbs
Power: 405
P:W ratio: 8.6
Nurburgring: 7:52.3

And this is before you give the M4 the weight loss and suspension upgrades of the competition that the M2 C has. I can't find a ring time but I'm sure it's faster than the M2 C.

When I was shopping M cars the salemen reassured me that the M2 'is our sportiest car in the line up'. Of course I knew better but small=faster is the Intuitive Logic most ignorant customers approach the question with.

Yet in reality
M5
4300 lbs
Power: 617 hp
P:W ratio: 6.9
Ring time: 7:38

There is far more to setting a car up to go fast than dimensions. M5 is going to smoke an M2 in corners and on straights. Rumors are the M8 is sub 7:30. Granted the M2 is old and due to be replaced and the M8 is brand new.

The main point I'm trying to make is M2 is inferior in its design to M4. Its materials are cheaper and it's inherently slower due to its small size. The M4 is a superior vehicle given the same weight.

If BMW had planned and made a 3100 lbs M2 with 405 hp? This would be a different conversation becuase then it'd have the strengths of small size to make up for the weaknesses.

Eh, I do not subscribe to the philosophy that speed = sportiness. If that's your philosophy, more power to you. But I would consider the M2 Competition more sporty than a vanilla M4, which I would consider to be more sporty in turn than a vanilla M5. And I say this knowing full well i've ranked them in reverse order of speed.

A lot of this is because in my mind a car's measure of sportiness has more to do with its eagerness to change direction than anything else. And i'm not talking about peak cornering grip here, rather just straight up pointiness.

Body control and weird as it sounds, a certain lack of refinement also lend themselves to my impression of how sporty a car is.

You can put R compound tires on a Camry and absolutely DESTROY a miata around a race track. But I don' think that makes it "sportier" just faster.

This is not meant to disparage the M4 or the M5. More often than not the sportier car isn't necessarily the better car. I love my M2C. I like how it changes directions aggressively and I like how it looks and I like how rare it is when compared to M4's. But the primary reason I bought it and not an M4? It was cheaper! And it looks and feels cheaper too, but also to my mind, just a bit sportier as well.

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Eh, I do not subscribe to the philosophy that speed = sportiness. If that's your philosophy, more power to you. But I would consider the M2 Competition more sporty than a vanilla M4, which I would consider to be more sporty in turn than a vanilla M5. And I say this knowing full well i've ranked them in reverse order of speed.

A lot of this is because in my mind a car's measure of sportiness has more to do with its eagerness to change direction than anything else. And i'm not talking about peak cornering grip here, rather just straight up pointiness.

[srmast1]

Honestly..who cares what other "M" owners think of us or our cars? Just enjoy what you have got. Don't worry what they think unless they are friends or family. Best to not give a crap what strangers think.

[Happy Motoring]

Originally Posted by RocketTR

Except when they start slapping M badges on all of their non-M cars. That just dilutes the M brand and makes it, well, less special. I don't want to say meaningless, but I guess it could eventually get to that point.

I think we're already there

[Sedan_Clan]

Ehhhh, a lot of overthinking going on here. Jealousy!?! That's the default perspective of someone who thinks myopically. Maybe they just didn't want to chat about the M2 simply because it's not on their radar as a potential car they'd spend their money on, so their interest level is minimal. I personally like the M2/C, but I wouldn't go out of my way to discuss it either (...well at least outside of the forum). It's not that I can't have one or that I'm jealous of someone who does.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Tiss'er

"The M4 is a superior vehicle given the same weight. "


Except in base form for both the M2 and M4, the M2 was faster around Willow Springs in the hands of Randy Pobst with 60 less HP.

I haven't seen a similar comparison with the M2C and M4C but to bet it would have a similar result, and that is factoring in that BMW is neutering the S55 in the M2C

Yes there's a 20 HP difference, but I think the term neuter is a bit extreme.

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Maybe they just didn't want to chat about the M2 simply because it's not on their radar as a potential car they'd spend their money on, so their interest level is minimal.

Exactly, if I was at BMWCCA’s M car Days the last thing I would do is waste my time on M3s or M4s as they simply don't interest me.