[BMW F22]

I don't know whether this speculation will come to fruition or not. But if it starts around $50k or just a hair under, BMW will pull the rug from under MBZ. If the M2 was priced higher than CLA45, people actually have a decision to make. If it's the same, I can honestly say that I sincerely believe most would go with the M2.

[hyperzulu]

At least we're not talking about the ho-hum seats anymore. Seems until we know what's on the car, we can continue to guess. So I'll throw in my two cents. From what we have seen so far, the car should be priced right around $50k US. Yes, it will have better components than the M235i, but they should be incremental. The price difference between the standard open diff on the M235i sells for $2,300 US, while the LSD for the M4 is $3,300. It's mostly replacement of like for like parts. It's not like the M2 is getting a flux capacitor that wasn't even available on the M235i. Body panels are body panels. Bigger, lighter wheels will cost a little more. Seats with contrast stitching is an equal trade. I'm not sure how BMW has a cost of $10k US more for the M2 than the M235i. But we shall see...

[supremepower]

Originally Posted by wdeerfield

A spec'd m235i is 51-55k. i do not see the m2 coming in below 55k.

Loaded 435i is $74k, Base M4 is $62k, just something to think about

[icenbp]

Personally I am looking forward to driving the M2. I think it is going to be a fun car.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by aveillez

You're absolutely right. This car will not sell for less than $60,000. M2 under $50,000??? These guys are dreaming.

Yes, it will sell for less than $60,000. These guys aren't dreaming, they are being logical. You can't do a direct conversion from euros to dollars for the price in the US market. Markets differ, and prices are set accordingly. Also, the Euro price includes VAT, while the US price does not include tax. See this post from this same thread to get an idea how it may be priced.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=42

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by supremepower

Loaded 435i is $74k, Base M4 is $62k, just something to think about

I think he was referring to a similar spec'd M235I vs what we think would be standard on the M2. You can add a bunch of options on the 435i to get it more expensive than a base M4 easily. That's no surprise.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

I think he was referring to a similar spec'd M235I vs what we think would be standard on the M2. You can add a bunch of options on the 435i to get it more expensive than a base M4 easily. That's no surprise.

And I think the former post outlines the absurdity of trying to justify the price of one car vs the price of a fully optioned car on which it's based on... The M2 will not come with a bunch of M235i options as standard. Leather seats... and that's all I can think of. So to compare the two cars, that's as far as we can go to baseline = an M2 will not be priced below the price of an M235i with leather seats. That's for certain.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

I don't know whether this speculation will come to fruition or not. But if it starts around $50k or just a hair under, BMW will pull the rug from under MBZ. If the M2 was priced higher than CLA45, people actually have a decision to make. If it's the same, I can honestly say that I sincerely believe most would go with the M2.

I don't know..we're talking a 4 door sedan vs a 2 door coupe here. Prices might be close but the usage is totally different I'd think.......

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by supremepower

Loaded 435i is $74k, Base M4 is $62k, just something to think about

yes of course.. this happens ALL over EVERY part of EVERY BMW model lineup

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

At least we're not talking about the ho-hum seats anymore. Seems until we know what's on the car, we can continue to guess. So I'll throw in my two cents. From what we have seen so far, the car should be priced right around $50k US. Yes, it will have better components than the M235i, but they should be incremental. The price difference between the standard open diff on the M235i sells for $2,300 US, while the LSD for the M4 is $3,300. It's mostly replacement of like for like parts. It's not like the M2 is getting a flux capacitor that wasn't even available on the M235i. Body panels are body panels. Bigger, lighter wheels will cost a little more. Seats with contrast stitching is an equal trade. I'm not sure how BMW has a cost of $10k US more for the M2 than the M235i. But we shall see...

oh lord.. See how BMW justifies an ELEVEN THOUSAND DOLLAR price difference from 228 to M235 and start there ..

[Powaup]

only person I listen to when it comes to rumors like this is SCOTT26

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

oh lord.. See how BMW justifies an ELEVEN THOUSAND DOLLAR price difference from 228 to M235 and start there ..

Putting aside the fact that BMW can do whatever it wants and sticking to the facts, the 228i and M235i have a very different list of standard options. So in THAT comparison, yes you would expect a wider gulf between prices because you get more content standard on the more expensive car.

[wdeerfield]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

I think he was referring to a similar spec'd M235I vs what we think would be standard on the M2. You can add a bunch of options on the 435i to get it more expensive than a base M4 easily. That's no surprise.

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

And I think the former post outlines the absurdity of trying to justify the price of one car vs the price of a fully optioned car on which it's based on... The M2 will not come with a bunch of M235i options as standard. Leather seats... and that's all I can think of. So to compare the two cars, that's as far as we can go to baseline = an M2 will not be priced below the price of an M235i with leather seats. That's for certain.

Exactly! If you want an m2, you need to include the LSD on the M235i. You need to include the premium package because i believe M cars are coming with comfort access, etc.. so there is another 2k

M235i = 43,100
LSD = 2,895
Metallic paint = 550
ZPP = 2,100
D&H = 995

Total = 49640

If you really believe bmw is not going to add another 2-3k for the M badge, you are crazy....

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Putting aside the fact that BMW can do whatever it wants and sticking to the facts, the 228i and M235i have a very different list of standard options. So in THAT comparison, yes you would expect a wider gulf between prices because you get more content standard on the more expensive car.

go look at the entire model lineup pricing... the cheapest model differences are around 5-6K... but that's not a jump from non M to M car..

regardless of base price... whether it is just under 50... to as high as 52-53K... this will be a great performance bargain.

The 1M model range topped out at 54K just 1K below the E90 M3 sedan.... and I would bet the M2 tops at 60K out just under the F80 M3.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

BMW is not like Porsche.. where you can start with a 50K base price Cayman and go to an 84K base price model which then has pricing well into the 100K area. If you like that sort of modeling and pricing structure... go buy a Porsche.

But what you are asking is folly.. because even at Porsche... even though you can price your way to a 104K Cayman... you still cant get a Cayman with the best motor in it... they still reserve some for the 911...

I think you might have my argument confused. I'm not asking for the S55 in the M2. I'm saying that the M2 is made lesser by the absence of an engine that is special. Complimentary to that, I would prefer an S-engine in the car, because they are typically BMW's most special engines. I said earlier that I'd rather have an S20 — which would presumably be less expensive and would preserve the separation between the M2 & M4 — than a N55. It's not even really about the S designation; it's about the engine having that special quality that S-engines typically have.

Porsche is neither here nor there in that argument. BMW M-cars typically have an S-engine; even the X M line.

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

I almost shudder to ask what your complaint to BMW will be... Why aren't you like Porsche? BMW AG Answer.... We have never tried to be exactly like Porsche.. lol

If your complaint still is that the 1M /M2 as entry level cars are not infinitelv customizable... or.. if you STILL CLING TO DOGMAS (individual throttle body.. CF roof.... bespoke " M seats " , S motor... etc) ) you are simply pointing yourself toward disappointment.

You keep positing strawman after strawman. I said nothing about customizability, CF roof, bespoke, etc. You keep bringing up Porsche, not me.

The wheezy top-end of the N54/N55 isn't dogma; it's a demonstrable fact. While we're on the topic, you really should crack a dictionary. The irony here is that you're the one spouting dogma (which is a close cousin to the argument from authority fallacy).

Dogma: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

Who is the authority? BMW.

What does BMW marketing say: Pay no mind to the man behind the curtain! The M logo makes it so!

Any argument from that basis is soundly dogma. How about some argument for the N55 that isn't based on something BMW has told you?

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

To paraphrase....Kay Segler.. BMW M brand manager declared in 2011.... " we want to bring an M car to the people... "

and he also declared we will have no Dogmas and The 1M is the car they then presented, and they brought out a vehicle that was a knockout...

It's M Pure.. I guarantee that... said Dr. Segler...

Many complained it wasn't better than a 135. Look what happened... Many potential buyers missed out.

Then, next... continuing in the No dogmas theme... they brought out a TURBO CHARGED M car .. with ELECTRIC POWER STEERING.

You've still not refuted my central thesis. The N54 in the 1M was the weakest part of a fantastic car. BMW has the opportunity to resolve that with the M2. We'll see whether they have when the car gets released, but with the N55B30T0 designation, we have good reason to believe changes will be limited. Nothing would make me happier than to be wrong about that.

Spouting BMW marketing rhetoric doesn't support your point; it just makes you sound like an apologist.

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Then they brought out the new X5 and X6M OMG... More Turbos... and gasp... they are still making M SAVs...

And now.. we have an M2... so Now.. the first car model that is a SECOND GENERATION of this new BMW M is coming is here... and if the M2 comes out with no CF roof.. and no bespoke seats.. PLEASE don't sit around and complain to BMW that they did what they said they were going to do... bring out an M car that is affordable......

If to you.. M means bespoke everything.. the M3/M4 ... M5/M6/M6 GC and x5M and x6M pricing clearly show you that BMW cannot bring your version of an M car to market for less than 62K in the U.S.

Way to trot out the anti-X M trope. Another point I never made. I don't care about the X M cars. I'm thrilled BMW makes them, but I don't buy them because they're not what I want.

It really comes down to this: the M2 would be better with an engine that is more special than a T0 variant of the N55. Figuring out how to achieve that is a problem for BMW to solve; not me. What I'm calling in to question is whether it's possible that BMW put finance before function with the M2. Using an N55 is unquestionably more economical, and like I said, no one outside of BMW knows for sure.

You could go ahead and make a counter argument to that point by looking at the N55 vs S55 to try and estimate what kind of expense that represents on a per unit basis plus amortized R&D for anticipated sales, then extrapolate that to the M2, but you don't even have to go that far. I accept that any S-engine program represents an additional expense. I'm not sure there's any means to "prove" either way whether BMW M rested on their laurels or if they simply had to use the N55 to meet their price point. That doesn't change the facts though.

Or you could keep posting strawmen and repeating BMW marketing materials.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

It really comes down to this: the M2 would be better with an engine that is more special than a T0 variant of the N55. .

4 years ago..... people said...


It really comes down to this : The 1M would be better with an engine that is more special than a TO Variant of the N54



4 years hasn't changed much has it ?

[PackPride85]

The N55 is lighter, cheaper, and will probably produce identical performance times vs dropping in a detuned s55. The "S" designation means nothing more than a letter if its detuned.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

4 years ago..... people said...


It really comes down to this : The 1M would be better with an engine that is more special than a TO Variant of the N54



4 years hasn't changed much has it ?

Great question! I think it has.

The 1M was a stealth project that was born in the engineering department of M GmbH. The engineers there put together a parts bin car that defied everything the automotive enthusiast community would normally attribute to a car carrying that moniker. Basically, the 1M was awesome. But everyone was right then, and they're right now. The 1M would have been better with a more special engine.

So what has changed? This time around, the M2 wasn't a hurried project; it was a normally developed and planned release. The forum's famous (or infamous, depending on your perspective) BMW insider — who shall remain nameless — leaked messages that this time, BMW would take its time and do the project with the normal amount of development and attention to the details. An odd message considering how well the 1M turned out, but unquestionably, this led many to expect something more in line with the traditional M formula. Reasonably, this would include resolving the anomaly of the N-engine in the 1M.

And here we are. The intervening 4 years have given BMW ever opportunity to make sure that the M2 has no warts, yet it will be delivered with an N55 engine. It will be the only M-car in BMW's line up lacking an S-engine.

Circling back again. I do not believe this will make the M2 a "bad car". To the contrary, I expect the M2 will have a great chassis. We'll see when official pricing is announced whether the compromise of the N55 was a worth it to the enthusiast community.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

go look at the entire model lineup pricing... the cheapest model differences are around 5-6K... but that's not a jump from non M to M car..

regardless of base price... whether it is just under 50... to as high as 52-53K... this will be a great performance bargain.

The 1M model range topped out at 54K just 1K below the E90 M3 sedan.... and I would bet the M2 tops at 60K out just under the F80 M3.

Right, but the differences between most non-M models and their M counterparts represent about as much change as the 228i does to the M235i. The difference between the M235i and the M2 is probably not going to be quite as large as a base 435i to M4.

In the M235i you have a different engine, electrically adjustable sport seats, larger wheels, m-sport brakes, moonroof, xenon headlights, sport exhaust, electronically adaptive shocks, all standard.

The drive gear, wheels, and cosmetics will add to the price of the M2 over that of an M235i, but it appears the delta between the M235i and the M2 will be far less in terms of standard content. The M235i is extremely well optioned for a base model.

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by Lt1camaro

Hmm if the pricing is goign to be around ~50-55k US then I might have to hold off on buying a GLA45....

You are being sarcastic, right?

[Desert_Fox]

I'm not sure why everyone is so interested in MSRP when we all know that your local dealer is going to have few slots and "market adjusted pricing"

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by Lt1camaro

Hmm if the pricing is goign to be around ~50-55k US then I might have to hold off on buying a GLA45....

Oops. Sorry. I read it wrong. You should hold off buying it!

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

The N55 is lighter, cheaper, and will probably produce identical performance times vs dropping in a detuned s55. The "S" designation means nothing more than a letter if its detuned.

Ever driven an M-car? It may not matter to you, but the engine in the F80 is a way more exciting and special engine than the N55. I just drove one at full tilt through the mountains of Western Virginia back-to-back with my S65 powered M3; which is arguably one of the most special engines BMW ever made.

For me, it doesn't really matter whether the engine is an S55. It could be an S20, or an S38 for that matter. I only care that the engine has the qualities that make it special: free revving, high-revving, strong power to redline, pleasing exhaust note, adequate power output. Note that power output is last on the list. The S14 made 240 HP in it's most aggressive tune, yet people loved that motor, and you'd be hard pressed to make a solid argument that it wasn't a special engine.

If none of this matters to you, fine, but you can't make the argument that these aren't the attributes of an M-car. Trace the M-car lineage back to the beginning and you'll find that the 1M, and soon to be the M2, are the exception, not the rule.