[Megator]

Originally Posted by ptgltw

Ma!, we got another one. Mensa members all around us. Who knew the M2C owners were so smart.

See the comment below, we may not be smarter but we are better informed.

CS owners seem to praise the CS over the C for things that objectively are not different.

Maybe sitting in the CS cabin with all of its special touches gives you a fizz that sitting in the C doesn't and that's OK. Enjoy your CS its exclusivity etc, just realize there is a lot of carry over with the C and be a productive member of this community.

Originally Posted by chris719

It's good to try to be objective and understand what the actual differences are, rather than what people believe or marketing says. A lot of CS owners seem to be new to the F87 platform and don't know the history. We've already had one person claim the synchros now have graphene (wrong), the shift knob is different (wrong). The transmission is the exact same unit (fact).

I suggest you try harder to recognize and overcome your cognitive bias. Any 1st->2nd shift quality difference must be in the linkage or mounts if there is any difference. I am not aware of ANY part number differences in this area either. If there are changes I will be happy to accept and attribute the reported differences to that.

I have driven 5 different BMWs with this exact same transmission, F80, 2x F82, F87, and F87 Comp. There are very much unit-to-unit differences in notchiness. One of the M4's I drove was really bad compared to the other M4. You refuse to even consider this, though, since you appear to be insecure and can't overcome the bias induced by your need to justify your purchase.

My hypotheses have a factual basis while yours are just an emotional reaction. Do better.

Some people here, like me, just want to understand the actual differences. Questioning what the real differences are is not an attack on the CS or CS owners. I realize there are a lot of lurkers here who want to trash the CS as a value proposition and that gets old fast. I think that's a personal judgment and they should stop beating that dead horse.


BTW, here is a comparison of part numbers between 2019 M2 LCI / M2C and a 2021 M2 CS:

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=25_0558

https://parts.bmwmonterey.com/a/BMW_...n/25_0558.html

Every part number looks identical to me unless I missed something. I also checked the GS6-45BZ SHIFT MECHANISM COMPONENTS and MOUNT / SUPPORT FOR GS6-45BZ.

[M3R1]

Originally Posted by chris719

Drivetrain is mounted to chassis with rubber…

Diff is solid mount on all M2 models. So, no, I disagree.

I’ve driven both Z4M coupe and roadster (owned), which is a massive difference in torsional stiffness far beyond what M2 CS provides over a car already having a roof. There is no difference in shift quality. If anything, the coupe shifted worse into 2nd.

Perhaps you are right... Love is blind...

[sdhotwn]

Credit to Chris719 for the thought and effort on checking things. When these discussions come up it is worth noting that for some of us it's a painful retread of comments and attempts by many over the last three or four years of the "CS is an overpriced Competition" or "should have bought a GT4" discussion. Reviews and the market have put that to bed at this point, but the topics and detractors still persist and it's more than annoying. Most of us aren't needing to or trying to justify anything about our purchase. We simply love our cars and are tired of hearing how they aren't good by people that haven't even driven them. "parts bin special" and "just software" are not even veiled attempts to belittle the cars as well.

That all said we KNOW the cars feel different to drive. Too many reviewers and owners have swapped and commented. An earnest pursuit of where the differences come from so they can be used for the betterment of the overall community is valuable and should be supported, so let's try to help that along.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

Credit to Chris719 for the thought and effort on checking things. When these discussions come up it is worth noting that for some of us it's a painful retread of comments and attempts by many over the last three or four years of the "CS is an overpriced Competition" or "should have bought a GT4" discussion. Reviews and the market have put that to bed at this point, but the topics and detractors still persist and it's more than annoying. Most of us aren't needing to or trying to justify anything about our purchase. We simply love our cars and are tired of hearing how they aren't good by people that haven't even driven them. "parts bin special" and "just software" are not even veiled attempts to belittle the cars as well.

That all said we KNOW the cars feel different to drive. Too many reviewers and owners have swapped and commented. An earnest pursuit of where the differences come from so they can be used for the betterment of the overall community is valuable and should be supported, so let's try to help that along.

Yes, I’m not denying there could be a difference at all. I just want to understand what causes it.

I’ve seen enough people claim the M2C drives better than OG M2 because of “rose jointing” or the solid subframe mount to be skeptical of any subjective claims. As we know, both of those existed in the OG M2 and didn’t change for the competition.

We may never know the exact changes responsible for most of the perceived differences between the models, but the manual transmission seems like one of the most transparent pieces to analyze because it has no software.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by chris719

I just want to understand what causes it.

Synergy

[akkando]

Originally Posted by BMWF87Melb

Interesting! Would love to hear from more people that have spent time extended time with the og/m2c manual and the m2cs manual.

Honestly I think there is just variance from car to car. It wouldn't surprise me if two m2c 6 speeds felt different.

[AlpsRider]

The 6MT tranny and linkage breaks in over time. 3000 miles is enough for the two cars to shift differently. My car has 22k miles and the shifting feel is night and day from even 5k miles. Your mileage may vary.

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by M3R1

Is it not a possibility that the differences between the M2c and M2cs shifter feel can be attributed to the chassis stiffness? The M2cs "is said" to be stiffer because of the roof and the rear subframe bolted directly to the body frame without any rubber bushings.

Here is a story that might have some relevance. A few cars ago for me, a buddy and I both had the same 5th gen Camaro's (year and color, lol). Both were pretty heavily modified, however I replaced my subframe bushings with semi solid one's. My car felt objectively better in ways that you would not think would change as a result. Of course it could have been a car to car variation, however prior to the mod they did feel similar.

I could believe this argument. I swapped rear subframe and differential bushings on my 6MT E92 328i to 95A poly versions for handling reasons. I was very surprised when I noticed an improvement in shift quality as well.

[M3R1]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

I could believe this argument. I swapped rear subframe and differential bushings on my 6MT E92 328i to 95A poly versions for handling reasons. I was very surprised when I noticed an improvement in shift quality as well.

It very possible that BMW did a multitude of little things like that. We all know what the obvious differences are, it would be nice to have a list of every change.

No matter what it is, I truly love it.

[FaRKle!]

All F8x have direct subframe to body mounting without bushings.

[Beenz]

As anyone who has actually driven both the C and CS is well aware, the difference between the two is worlds apart. It’s not placebo and it’s not marketing. And it’s not about cost.

My view (based on owning and driving both, not hypothetical or armchair expertise) is that
1. ALOT of fettling has gone into the CS, so the same part numbers are used/perform very differently when combined as a package.
2. There are lots of parts that are actually different but may not be listed as such, and/or is a minor difference (but there are lots of little things). Take for eg the handle on the park brake. It is different- both fatter and a different shape. This is not relevant to performance at all, but is different for an otherwise unremarkable and common part. Another eg is the dash- without the climate control etc it’s actually a different fascia. The list of these small things goes on and on. The manual shift linkage might be in this category and point 1. Above….?
3. Other inputs that have flow on effects. In particular engine tune, gearbox settings, suspension and structural elements. I’m not saying this explains everything, but it shouldn’t be ignored either. These are fundamental elements of a car and are very different from C to CS

I’ve taken the high road and not flamed anyone, but suffice to say the CS is far more than a parts bin or tuned C. Try it….!

And back to on original point, insofar as the DCT is concerned the CS is light years better than the C. It beggars belief it’s that different.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Beenz

As anyone who has actually driven both the C and CS is well aware, the difference between the two is worlds apart. It’s not placebo and it’s not marketing. And it’s not about cost.

My view (based on owning and driving both, not hypothetical or armchair expertise) is that
1. ALOT of fettling has gone into the CS, so the same part numbers are used/perform very differently when combined as a package.
2. There are lots of parts that are actually different but may not be listed as such, and/or is a minor difference (but there are lots of little things). Take for eg the handle on the park brake. It is different- both fatter and a different shape. This is not relevant to performance at all, but is different for an otherwise unremarkable and common part. Another eg is the dash- without the climate control etc it’s actually a different fascia. The list of these small things goes on and on. The manual shift linkage might be in this category and point 1. Above….?
3. Other inputs that have flow on effects. In particular engine tune, gearbox settings, suspension and structural elements. I’m not saying this explains everything, but it shouldn’t be ignored either. These are fundamental elements of a car and are very different from C to CS

I’ve taken the high road and not flamed anyone, but suffice to say the CS is far more than a parts bin or tuned C. Try it….!

And back to on original point, insofar as the DCT is concerned the CS is light years better than the C. It beggars belief it’s that different.

hallelujah

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Beenz

As anyone who has actually driven both the C and CS is well aware, the difference between the two is worlds apart. It’s not placebo and it’s not marketing. And it’s not about cost.

Very good post. Yes, I drove an extended final farewell route in my M2C (which I loved by the way and I would never belittle the car nor anyone that owns one as I think it is still a fantastic car and I consider myself very lucky to have owned it) dropped it off to trade for the CS and then did the same route.

I noticed the difference before I even got out of the dealer car park. Then driving the route I noticed a world of difference. The steering is the headline act but the rest of the supporting cast is stellar as well.

Nothing has or will ever change my mind in that I think it was a passion project. And I am one lucky recipient. The car and I will never part ways.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by Beenz

And back to on original point, insofar as the DCT is concerned the CS is light years better than the C. It beggars belief it's that different.

I had a DCT/S55 F80 combination and I find the DCT pairing on the S55 in the F87 CS is streets ahead. They certainly learned how to tune that over the years. Just the best (and sadly last) DCT implementation from BMW (and light years ahead of my SMG E60 M5).

[smknjoe]

The suspension (including wheels, tires, brake rotors) is most likely what makes the marked difference in handling since the rest of the cars are identical mechanically. I concur there is a marked difference in handling/feel between 763/788 and PSS/PSC2 alone.

[mchart]

Originally Posted by Davil

Very good post. Yes, I drove an extended final farewell route in my M2C (which I loved by the way and I would never belittle the car nor anyone that owns one as I think it is still a fantastic car and I consider myself very lucky to have owned it) dropped it off to trade for the CS and then did the same route.

I noticed the difference before I even got out of the dealer car park. Then driving the route I noticed a world of difference. The steering is the headline act but the rest of the supporting cast is stellar as well.

Nothing has or will ever change my mind in that I think it was a passion project. And I am one lucky recipient. The car and I will never part ways.

It's the best modern car i've ever owned, and i've owned a lot. However, I am going to be trading it for something older since I can't imagine holding onto this car over a S54 car forever.

[ChiTownM]

Drove the Competition on the track in Spartanburg during delivery, before picking up my CS to drive home to Chicago. As a previous poster mentioned, you can feel the difference between both cars immediately. Both cars are great, and I am happy I pulled the trigger on the CS, because it delivers what I was looking for in a car, and that's it.

[Megator]

Originally Posted by Beenz

As anyone who has actually driven both the C and CS is well aware, the difference between the two is worlds apart. It's not placebo and it's not marketing. And it's not about cost.

My view (based on owning and driving both, not hypothetical or armchair expertise) is that
1. ALOT of fettling has gone into the CS, so the same part numbers are used/perform very differently when combined as a package.
2. There are lots of parts that are actually different but may not be listed as such, and/or is a minor difference (but there are lots of little things). Take for eg the handle on the park brake. It is different- both fatter and a different shape. This is not relevant to performance at all, but is different for an otherwise unremarkable and common part. Another eg is the dash- without the climate control etc it's actually a different fascia. The list of these small things goes on and on. The manual shift linkage might be in this category and point 1. Above….?
3. Other inputs that have flow on effects. In particular engine tune, gearbox settings, suspension and structural elements. I'm not saying this explains everything, but it shouldn't be ignored either. These are fundamental elements of a car and are very different from C to CS

I've taken the high road and not flamed anyone, but suffice to say the CS is far more than a parts bin or tuned C. Try it….!

And back to on original point, insofar as the DCT is concerned the CS is light years better than the C. It beggars belief it's that different.

What? The hand brake handle is exactly the same part as a bunch of other BMWs…

Any variation you perceive, is just that perception.

There are some things that are mechanically and objectively different between the C and CS.

The trans is not one of them. As far as I know, there is also no M2 CS specific tune for the trans. You may simply be feeling the difference between a transmission that has 0 adaptations and one that had adaptations (not suited to you).

The main mechanical differences are Cup 2 tires, EDC dampers (M3/4 dampers and M2 springs), lighter wheels, lighter brakes if you have ceramics, and possibly a marginally stiffer chassis (as far as I am aware BMW didn't give any numbers on this).

Maybe the differences all add together to be more than the sum of its parts.

Comments like this make me think the difference is more between the owners ears than anything to do with the bits fitted to the car.

Sorry, not sorry, but the CS snobbery is just as annoying as the C dragging down.

Both are great cars, they are like twins where one got a little more out of life than the other (hell, a bunch of stuff on the C is stamped CS).

Lastly the dash is the exact same as any other 1/2 series except it has the alcantara CS insert and the climate controls from a base car with manual airconditioning (the no cost option over in EU and other markets).

Ima shut up about it now. Many safe and fun miles to everyone.

[Piets94]

Originally Posted by Megator

What? The hand brake handle is exactly the same part as a bunch of other BMWs…

Any variation you perceive, is just that perception.

There are some things that are mechanically and objectively different between the C and CS.

The trans is not one of them. As far as I know, there is also no M2 CS specific tune for the trans. You may simply be feeling the difference between a transmission that has 0 adaptations and one that had adaptations (not suited to you).

The main mechanical differences are Cup 2 tires, EDC dampers (M3/4 dampers and M2 springs), lighter wheels, lighter brakes if you have ceramics, and possibly a marginally stiffer chassis (as far as I am aware BMW didn't give any numbers on this).

Maybe the differences all add together to be more than the sum of its parts.

Comments like this make me think the difference is more between the owners ears than anything to do with the bits fitted to the car.

Sorry, not sorry, but the CS snobbery is just as annoying as the C dragging down.

Both are great cars, they are like twins where one got a little more out of life than the other (hell, a bunch of stuff on the C is stamped CS).

Lastly the dash is the exact same as any other 1/2 series except it has the alcantara CS insert and the climate controls from a base car with manual airconditioning (the no cost option over in EU and other markets).

Ima shut up about it now. Many safe and fun miles to everyone.

How many more C to CS owners need to chime in to convince you that the CS is more than just the sum of its different parts? I'll be one more.

Spent 20 months, 14k kms and 3 track days in my C, DCT as well (they most certainly are tuned differently now that I've been in my CS for ~4k kms). Hopefully that qualifies as objective enough. Part of what makes the C such a great car is exactly because it is 90% the same as the CS. But that last 10% that BMW engineers spent countless hours and resources fine-tuning is what you can't put a part number on.

Go for an extended drive in one. I think you might be impressed.

[chris719]

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to software controlled components like the steering, diff, engine, and DCT since they are close to black boxes. They also have an established track record of being able to have their character changed significantly with software-only changes. Where we have evidence of identical parts I am far more skeptical. Not dismissing it off-hand, but would prefer to entertain plausible explanations.

For example, I do not consider the roof a plausible explanation for 6MT shift quality differences when the engine and transmission are mounted with soft rubber to a chassis that is already stiff and already has a roof. Anyone who buys this has never taken college level physics 101, nevermind statics or dynamics. If the engine and trans are mounted with rubber and literally visibly MOVE when accelerating and shifting, this would clearly dominate the imperceptible deflection even a stock F22 chassis would experience.

In my work, we do blind testing all the time where possible. Most would be shocked and amazed at the power of the bias introduced by sighted comparisons, even in those who are aware of it.

[smknjoe]

Cognitive bias is definitely something to consider.

I have been to a few blind/double blind tastings. The results are often surprising. Some people actually refuse to believe they preferred something different (and usually cheaper) than their favorite dram.

Spoiler: there are $30-$60 bottles that are just as good as, if not better than, $150-$4000 bottles.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by smknjoe

Cognitive bias is definitely something to consider.

I have been to a few blind/double blind tastings. The results are often surprising. Some people actually refuse to believe they preferred something different (and usually cheaper) than their favorite dram.

Spoiler: there are $30-$60 bottles that are just as good as, if not better than, $150-$4000 bottles.

Not surprised. I've shown things that are the same color to the same person and gotten different reactions when they only think the color has changed at their suggestion.

I really don't want to turn anything into CS vs non-CS owners argument. I'm sure it is a sum of all the changes that produces the experience, but think everyone benefits from learning why.