[Aronis]

I'm not buying that "I won't buy a BMW if they don't offer Manual" BS. You did not buy a BMW for just the transmission!

You'll be drooling over the 2020 M-whatever with SELF drive and CVT transmission either way.


Mike

[andrettifan]

Originally Posted by akkando

What are all you MT guys going to do when they don't make the MT anymore? Just no longer buy cars?

Yes. We'll keep the last car we bought and make it last forever. In my case (age 62) that isn't all that long!!1

My M2 has manual shift and I expect it will be my last car. I've had my TR6 for 30 years. I expect I can keep my M2 on the road for 20 or so.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by Aronis

You'll be drooling over the 2020 M-whatever with SELF drive and CVT transmission either way.

Uh, no.

I have the brand loyalty of a three-toed sloth (which is to say, none), so I'll go where the fun is.

[Tralfaz]

Originally Posted by Aronis

I took what was available so I did not care if it was manual or auto. After driving it for a year I have no issues with the DCT and it's a hoot to drive. But as a potential long term car (like my 13 year old RS6 that needs a little more work, friggen EGR valves) I am concerned over the longevity of the DCT. Manual transmissions if properly driven and services will last forever with an occasional new clutch. But the DCT will need special service at 100k miles etc....

So for me I vote Keep the Manual ALIVE! Hell, charge more for the Manual like they used to for the Automatic.

Mike

I owned an RX-8 when they first came out. They had an interesting take on the manual transmission. The manual version of the car cost more than the automatic, but it wasn't because of the transmission. The automatic actually had less horsepower than the manual (197 vs 238) and I believe the automatic had slightly smaller wheels.

So really they tailored the manual for the "enthusiast" and set up the automatic for the "average driver". For a car oriented toward more of a mass market it made some sense. Doing that with a BMW obviously wouldn't make sense since there is a legitimate enthusiast market for the DCT.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by Corinne

We all agree that a DCT can shift gears faster and therefore has better acceleration times. However I'm wondering whether BMW and other manufacturers are deliberately fiddling the fuel consumption figures so as to make DCT appear better... so as to push people into buying DCT in the hope of deleting MT from the range in a year or two. I'm talking here about the final drive ratio of the highest gear, which, unless I'm mistaken, has the greatest effect on fuel consumption. The top gear on MT is higher than that of the DCT, which means the engine is turning over faster at any given cruise speed on the highway. I know DCT has more gears but why on earth not have a longer top gear on MT ? It's not as if 6th gear is going to be used on the race track. And you don't exactly need it on country roads either. Matching top gear ratios would most probably result in similar fuel consumption between DCT and MT... assuming the driver is not someone who doesn't know when to change gear by himself. Existing M2 owners are already finding negligible difference in fuel consumption between comfort and sport modes so could it be that these latter are just there to camouflage the issue ?

As anecdotal as it may be, as driving style and road types play a big factor, all the of F80 DCT drivers I have asked get worse gas mileage than my F80 6MT. Usually the DCT drivers are in the 20-22 range, while I have maintained a 24-25 avg (per vehicle computer). Once again small sample size but I think in real world consumption the manual can actually do better despite the top gear ratio and advertised results (per standards) from BMW.

[rich8566]

Originally Posted by M2taz

I think M2 DCT sales are partially as high as they are because that's all dealers order by default. Just by looking at some of the response will show this. Porsche is bringing back manuals for a reason, there's demand for them. Add me to the list of people who wouldn't have considered the M2 if there weren't a manual option, it was number two on my requirements for this purchase. A rear sear was number one actually since I have kids, as a reference.

The 40% manual take rate for the M2 is higher than the BMW product managers predicted

[rich8566]

Originally Posted by RBNetEngr

It may have something to do with the automotive industry's march toward autonomous cars. They have slowly been working on the components of it since the early 2000s (or maybe earlier). Drive by wire throttle. Electric Steering. Computerized braking systems. Centralized diagnostics. Object detection (front/rear/side). Various vision systems. Real time telemetry. Auto Start/Stop. One by one they have put these individual systems into vehicles and had vehicle owners drive them and find the problems so the bugs could be worked out.

The only thing that throws a wrench into the autonomous car spokes is a manual transmission. So they want to convince us that DCT is just as good (or better), or that the current generation of automatic transmissions is just as good.

My 2¢

-rb

The real deal here is consumer demand. They won't build manual transmission cars unless we buy them. In a strange kind of way this is our fault, not their fault. They can only sell what we want to buy and there are too few of us.

[rich8566]

Originally Posted by M2BSM17

I got the same survey on Saturday and found it very interesting. One of the questions I got was "would you pay more for the option of buying a manual transmission?". I said no.. or disagree, or whatever the appropriate thing was. I hope they don't try to kill the manual by charging more for it! I agree that if the M2 wasn't offered in manual, I wouldn't have purchased it.

I beg to differ but I would pay more for a manual transmission. That's not to say that I'd be happy to do that, but at a minimum it would give me the option to get it.

[CommitConfirm]

Without wishing to stir things up, and as someone old enough to have learnt to row my own I don't see what the fuss is all about.

We're not talking about removing the decition when to change gear. These DCT boxes are excellent automatic clutches when driven in flappy paddle mode.

I own a manual M2 and have driven the tits off a DCT M2 of a friend after my purchase. I can safely say I would happily buy an M2 CS or M2 GTS if they where DCT only.

[twin fed]

Manual until I can afford to add a Tesla P100D with Ludicrous Package

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by omasou

Maybe manufacturers are tired of eating warranty claims (for customer good will) for people that think they know how to drive a MT?

I think this is a lot of it. With the DCT and automatics, they have more control over what the driver can and cannot do. The more control they have, the better they can manage their warranty costs.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by CommitConfirm

Without wishing to stir things up, and as someone old enough to have learnt to row my own I don't see what the fuss is all about.

We're not talking about removing the devotion when to change gear. These DCT boxes are excellent automatic clutches when driven in flappy paddle mode.

I own a manual M2 and have driven the tits off a DCT M2 of a friend after my purchase. I can safely say I would happily buy an M2 CS or M2 GTS if they where DCT only.

Have you driven a sporting automatic for an extended period of time? I have and it gets old after a year or so.

Take note on auto forums about how many people get auto/DCTs because it is faster and more advanced and then regret it and want the manual. Very rarely do you read the same about manual owners wanting to switch to an auto/DCT unless they have some injury and/or health issue.

[ajvdh]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Have you driven a sporting automatic for an extended period of time? I have and it gets old after a year or so.

Take note on auto forums about how many people get auto/DCTs because it is faster and more advanced and then regret it and want the manual. Very rarely do you read the same about manual owners wanting to switch to an auto/DCT unless they have some injury and/or health issue.

14 months and counting on my DCT M2. Once in a while, I ask myself, "would I like this better with a manual?" The answer is still "no."

[pissclams]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Have you driven a sporting automatic for an extended period of time? I have and it gets old after a year or so.

Take note on auto forums about how many people get auto/DCTs because it is faster and more advanced and then regret it and want the manual. Very rarely do you read the same about manual owners wanting to switch to an auto/DCT unless they have some injury and/or health issue.

If driving a DCT M3 gets old for you, maybe it's you that's getting old. There's a very real difference between driving a dual clutch in full automatic and shifting the gears yourself on a DCT. I always drive mine in the latter and it's never gotten old.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Have you driven a sporting automatic for an extended period of time? I have and it gets old after a year or so.

Take note on auto forums about how many people get auto/DCTs because it is faster and more advanced and then regret it and want the manual. Very rarely do you read the same about manual owners wanting to switch to an auto/DCT unless they have some injury and/or health issue.

And yet they sell more DCTs even at an increased cost. The MT people are a vocal minority.

[seis-speed]

Originally Posted by Aronis

I'm not buying that "I won't buy a BMW if they don't offer Manual" BS. You did not buy a BMW for just the transmission!

You'll be drooling over the 2020 M-whatever with SELF drive and CVT transmission either way.


Mike

I was looking at an S4 or RS3. Until it was determined that there would be no MT. I am now an owner of a MT F80 and taking delivery of a MT F87. I am considering keeping both mainly due to implications that there will not be a good European MT DD for purchase in future years.

The other option is Porsche, but I would need another car for practicality.

[CommitConfirm]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Have you driven a sporting automatic for an extended period of time? I have and it gets old after a year or so.

Take note on auto forums about how many people get auto/DCTs because it is faster and more advanced and then regret it and want the manual. Very rarely do you read the same about manual owners wanting to switch to an auto/DCT unless they have some injury and/or health issue.

I'll be honest and say no, I have not driven a DCT for an extended period of time. I get bored of my cars long before I get bored of the transmission ?

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by akkando

And yet they sell more DCTs even at an increased cost. The MT people are a vocal minority.

Largely because most BMW owners, yes even M owners, are not really enthusiasts or driving purists. Also, many don't know how to drive a manaul. Take note how many automotive reviews of a car with a manual option say to get the manual, especially the M2. I yet to find an article that says that the auto and DCT/PDK option in a BMW or Porsche is the better choice. LOL

If you're about chasing numbers or race competively, the DCT is the only way to go. Otherwise, you're missing out, IMO.

[RAM_F30_F87]

I recently filled out a BMW survey where most of the questions were about the automatic start/stop feature and manual transmissions. Disturbingly they asked if I would pay more for a manual, would I still buy a BMW M product if no manual were offered, and was I aware BMW was the only German brand to still offer a manual.

[Aloha Joe]

Originally Posted by Aronis

I'm not buying that "I won't buy a BMW if they don't offer Manual" BS. You did not buy a BMW for just the transmission!

You'll be drooling over the 2020 M-whatever with SELF drive and CVT transmission either way.


Mike

Not sure who this quote was directed at, but my choice came down only to BMW or Porsche due to trans. But I'll agree with your point, if no car manufacturer ever made a manual trans.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Largely because most BMW owners, yes even M owners, are not really enthusiasts or driving purists. Also, many don't know how to drive a manaul. Take note how many automotive reviews of a car with a manual option say to get the manual, especially the M2. I yet to find an article that says that the auto and DCT/PDK option in a BMW or Porsche is the better choice. LOL

If you're about chasing numbers or race competively, the DCT is the only way to go. Otherwise, you're missing out, IMO.

Those reviewers are fucking idiots. Most of the time they don't even say anything about the DCT, just say get the MT. Well if you're someone who is interested in the DCT you might want to know how it performs and compares Audi's and Porsche's. But they just ignore it. Nice review. There are a some good videos where they review both the MT and DCT and you can tell they spent time driving both but they tend to be the lower production youtube reviewers rather than the production websites that appear to work off the script.

Honestly I think sometimes they talk about the MT because it gives them good car cred and they want BMW to keep making the MT, which I can understand trying to influence BMW to keep making the MT, but I don't think most of these reviewers even spend much time with the DCT at all. Maybe I wouldn't either if all did was get to drive hot new cars that weren't mine that I didn't have to live with 3 times a week, but they don't appear very objective to me.

[Karmic Man]

I have driven a number of these semi-autos extensively from Golf GTi to BMW M4 to AMG C63 to Porsche Cayman to Ferrari F430 and none of them provide the same driving involvement and satisfaction as a good old 6MT. I drove the F430 on the track as well and I feel that I would enjoy the experience much more with a 6MT. The alleged faster lap time with an auto means little to me as I drive to have fun. There will always be people faster than me... even in their less powerful 6MT car.

Simply as a consumer I have the power to purchase whatever I feel like within my budget. If BMW no longer cares about what I want I will take my money somewhere else. That will most likely be a 2nd hand GT car from Porsche...I am keeping my 1M (forever ) so I have at least one enthusiast car under my wing.

Of course should BMW release the M2 GTS with a 6MT (God bless them) then that would also be the car to keep forever.